Why the Sympathy?

[Éadaoin]

I don't think anyone would have thought a wife of Ned stark being kind to his bastard would have been any more suspicious than the idea of the "Honorable Lord Eddard Stark" even fathering a bastard in general. One of the reason's no one that we know of in Westeros suspects R+L=J is because Jon has no Targaryen features and looks so much like Ned.

I personally think it would have raised some eyebrows, but to each their own.

And I'm not trying to make excuses for Ned - his actions ended up hurting both Cat and Jon. He is responsible for a lot there.

[Florina Laufeyson]

Even if Cat learned that Jon wasnt Ned's bastard, im not entirely sure she would change her stance too much. Mostly because of the Targ thing. Perhaps she wouldnt be as cold, but i think she would have still ignored him to some extent. Cuz regardless, she still might find him a threat to her children's inheritance.

[jons nissa]

Even if Cat learned that Jon wasnt Ned's bastard, im not entirely sure she would change her stance too much. Mostly because of the Targ thing. Perhaps she wouldnt be as cold, but i think she would have still ignored him to some extent. Cuz regardless, she still might find him a threat to her children's inheritance.

actually jon being known as lyanna's son would be worse. he would have gone from no chance at being lord of winterfell to joining the line of succession, provided they were married, and he would have been a larger threat since he was older than some (or all? not sure how old robb is) of the trueborn sons. grrm says that while sibling and children of siblings were last, they could contest it. and they often did.

there was no way to keep cat from having a problem with jon.

[Kittykatknits]

I really do not understand why people would have that reaction to Cat. This is a great thread! As for me i really try not to judge the characters except for the true monsters ala Gregor Clegane, Ramsay, etc. most people I know have flaws. I attributed a lot of Sansa's behavior to the fact that she knew she was betrothed to Joffrey, she was being raised to be a southern lady and thats what she wanted. We see the conversation Ned has with Arya about her behavior, but we never see Ned discuss Sansa's behavior. Even though I'm a total Arya fanboy, I can see Sansa's POV on some of her arguments with Arya. So I don't understand how she's so hated, maybe if Ned would have told Sansa the same shit he told Arya she wouldn't have ran to the Lannisters. Personally I always felt like it was a parenting fail. :blushing: (ducks)

Yes, good point. I would also add that none of Sansa's siblings felt the need to talk to her either. All of them witnessed Joffrey's behavior at WF and yet no one said a word to Sansa about it.

actually jon being known as lyanna's son would be worse. he would have gone from no chance at being lord of winterfell to joining the line of succession, provided they were married, and he would have been a larger threat since he was older than some (or all? not sure how old robb is) of the trueborn sons. grrm says that while sibling and children of siblings were last, they could contest it. and they often did.

there was no way to keep cat from having a problem with jon.

If my understanding is correct, he would automatically be in the line of succession if her children were to die as he would actually be legitimate. So, his case for WF would actually be stronger than if he were just Ned's bastard. Combine that with him being a Targ too, and he would be a threat to her family. Robert made his feelings about that family pretty clear.

[Jon Icefyre]

Even if Cat learned that Jon wasnt Ned's bastard, im not entirely sure she would change her stance too much. Mostly because of the Targ thing. Perhaps she wouldnt be as cold, but i think she would have still ignored him to some extent. Cuz regardless, she still might find him a threat to her children's inheritance.

actually jon being known as lyanna's son would be worse. he would have gone from no chance at being lord of winterfell to joining the line of succession, provided they were married, and he would have been a larger threat since he was older than some (or all? not sure how old robb is) of the trueborn sons. grrm says that while sibling and children of siblings were last, they could contest it. and they often did.

there was no way to keep cat from having a problem with jon.

That's the whole point of giving her a chance to open her heart to him and actually accept him in her life. she would have grown to know Jon would never do something like that. The last thing that was on Jon's mind was taking his inheritance from his brothers and sisters. Yes he admitted as a child he dreamed of being the Lord of Winterfell because he was a child that didn't know any better. But as he got older he admitted he felt ashamed of ever thinking like that. If cat got to know him she would have known that wasn't in Jon's character the same way Robb knew that when he said "Jon would never harm a son of mine." when arguing with Cat. Cat relating Jon to the Blackfyre rebellion was a result of Cat fearing what she did not know which was Jon, had she got to know him she would have known that was folly like the rest of her children did. And I think her not seeing Ned's betrayal every time she looked at Jon would have made that possibility a lot more likely to have happened. The only reason Jon even considers stannis's offer was because everyone in his family was believed to be dead or missing or married to the imp.

[Kittykatknits]

Well, it looks like one of the rules of the board has come true. A thread that is not about the relationship between Jon and Cat has managed to become about the relationship between Jon and Cat.

[DrunkSister]

Cat calling his brother a possible rebel down the road and someone that might put his future children in danger(if he had any) got him angry.

While this is a nasty thing to say, Cat thinks Bran and Rickon were killed by Theon, her ward. I don't think she is capable of being reasonable. And she basically said: you know Jon, what of his children and grandchildren?

Can we bash Tywin instead? There is a really horrible parent.

On telling her about Jon: after Ned is dead, she wonders who the other/nameless woman was and if she too grieves. I think it would have mattered to her immensely to have known.

What interests me much more about Catelyn is the South/North, Seven/Old gods and how they are presented via her POV. She worships Seven and is southron in her morality, but actually believes in portends and signs (of old gods) more than The Ned, who is much more a skeptic even though his morality is northern.

She turns her back to the heart tree (and so does Bran) but on the reread I must ask: did she sense her son inside?

[Jon Icefyre]

If my understanding is correct, he would automatically be in the line of succession if her children were to die as he would actually be legitimate. So, his case for WF would actually be stronger than if he were just Ned's bastard.

Yes but that's only if all of her children died without an heir. If that happened(without Jon having any part in it) I don't think Cat would have minded Jon becoming Lord of Winterfell because it would have been legal in her eyes. The reason she has a problem with Jon being Robb's heir is because he was Ned's bastard which means he should not be able to inherit anything. And Like I said in my earlier post if she had gotten to know him she would have realized Jon would never have harmed her children or their heirs to improve his chances of getting Winterfell it wasn't in his character and his brothers and sisters knew that because they knew him.

[Florina Laufeyson]

That's the whole point of giving her a chance to open her heart to him and actually accept him in her life. she would have grown to know Jon would never do something like that. The last thing that was on Jon's mind was taking his inheritance from his brothers and sisters. Yes he admitted as a child he dreamed of being the Lord of Winterfell because he was a child that didn't know any better. But as he got older he admitted he felt ashamed of ever thinking like that. If cat got to know him she would have known that wasn't in Jon's character the same way Robb knew that when he said "Jon would never harm a son of mine." when arguing with Cat. Cat relating Jon to the Blackfyre rebellion was a result of Cat fearing what she did not know which was Jon, had she got to know him she would have known that was folly like the rest of her children did. And I think her not seeing Ned's betrayal every time she looked at Jon would have made that possibility a lot more likely to have happened. The only reason Jon even considers stannis's offer was because everyone in his family was believed to be dead or missing or married to the imp.

From a political standpoint as well as rule of common sense in Westeros, thats just not feasible. Even if Cat "knew" Jon wouldnt usurp her children's claim, its pretty silly to expect that it wouldnt happen.

[jons nissa]

Yes but that's only if all of them die without an heir. If that happened I don't think Cat would have minded Jon becoming Lord of Winterfell because it would have been legal in her eyes. The reason she has a problem with Jon being Robb's heir is because he was Ned's bastard which means he should not be able to inherit anything. And Like I said in my earlier post if she had gotten to know him she would have realized Jon would never have harmed her children or their heirs to improve his chances of getting Winterfell it wasn't in his character and his brothers and sisters knew that because they knew him.

actually what i'm saying is the succession would have been in jeopardy even if they hadn't died. apparently siblings and children of sibling contested these things from time to time. and i doubt cat would have ever been happy about jon becoming lord or winterfell, even if all her trueborn children died. refer to her reaction to robb's will.

Well, it looks like one of the rules of the board has come true. A thread that is not about the relationship between Jon and Cat has managed to become about the relationship between Jon and Cat.

it was a defining moment, whether intentionally or not. however, i don't think the discussion will ever be settled, one way or another. :dunno:

[Jon Icefyre]

From a political standpoint as well as rule of common sense in Westeros, thats just not feasible. Even if Cat "knew" Jon wouldnt usurp her children's claim, its pretty silly to expect that it wouldnt happen.

Not really considering it didn't happen and Jon had a chance to do it with Stannis's offer...If anything Jon had a better chance to usurp her children in (terms of getting support from the North) being a legitimized son a Ned stark which Robb made him and Stannis tried to make him instead of being Ned's nephew. Besides the main reason Cat has difficulty with Jon is because his very presence infact even mentioning his name was a reminder to her that Ned cheated on her, and there's no denying that.

[Jon Icefyre]

I doubt cat would have ever been happy about jon becoming lord or winterfell, even if all her trueborn children died. refer to her reaction to robb's will.

So your saying Cat's okay with Robb naming some distant relative from the vale his heir, but she wouldn't have been okay with Jon becoming Lord of Winterfell knowing that he was Ned's nephew and actually the legal heir since all her children would be dead? How does that make sense?

[Le Cygne]

I was looking at the writing.

Rather than, is the reader wrong to reach the conclusion, why did the reader reach the conclusion?

[Southron_Ambitions]

I can't believe how many people get hung up which characters are "good" and which are "bad".

[Daphne23]

Mileage varies on whether Arya's crossed the line yet. I go back and forth about that. As has been pointed out many times on the boards, is there much of a moral difference between what the FM ask Arya to do (kill someone on orders) compared to what, say, Westeros knights and soldiers are asked to do?

I agree - objectively, Arya's acts are no worse than many, many other characters in the series, and Tyrion, whom I can see being 'redeemed', has definitely done far more evil things than she has. I guess my concern arises more from the presentation of Arya's descent into darkness than the actual level of her crimes. She may be acting in the same way as a Westerosi knight, but she is also fully aware of the reality of her situation; unlike a knight who can lie to himself that the person he's killing deserved to die, the kindly man does not allow Arya to employ any self-justification for her murders. One could argue that this is a good thing, that Arya isn't being hypocritical at least, but I find it troubling that she knows all this and goes ahead and does the thing anyway, because I wonder who she would not kill, whereas many knights will have boundaries. (As you say, if she murders a child that will be a definite sign of her turn to the dark, but I'm not so sure she's not capable of doing that already.) Also, unlike a knight, Arya is beginning to have less and less of a life outside killing, and it's been made clear to her that the House of Black and White demand total devotion. I suppose what I'm trying to say is, while Arya may be no morally worse than many others, I do feel that she is more psychologically damaged, due to her young age, her past experiences, and the particular way the House of Black and White handle death. And this is where I start wondering if GRRM can really bring her back from the brink without this being a complete cop-out, and so start hoping (even though I think her situation is tragic, and wish she could be saved somehow) that he won't. She may still retain a vestige of her identity as Arya Stark through the buried Needle, but much of her recent life as Arya Stark was traumatic too - and it's worrying that what she does retain is a killing device, even if it's also a link to Jon and home.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

I wonder if Cat's ranking higher on the hate lists than Ramsay Bolton (??!!!) has to do with her being a woman and a mother. Women, especially mothers, are judged very very harshly in society's eyes if they do not live up to a Perfect Mother image. I think that Cersei escapes some of this censure due to her beauty and glamor - Catelyn is beautiful, too, but she doesn't flaunt it in cloth-of-gold and seductive glances like Cersei. So Catelyn gets "She's a Wicked Stepmother to Jon," "She acts on emotion," all these invidious stereotypes of women come home to haunt her. (Meanwhile, Ramsay Bolton - boys will be boys, a man's gotta flay what a man's gotta flay...)

Meanwhile, Catelyn's treatment of Jon is mostly that she's cold and distant. She's not outright abusive except for that one time when she wished Jon were in a coma instead of Bran - and Catelyn was under tremendous emotional strain at the time (her favorite son mortally injured, she'd been without sleep for days). Meanwhile let's look at the blood parents who abuse their children in far worse ways:

- Tywin Lannister. His treatment of Tyrion - his own son - is far more abusive than Catelyn's of Jon. He's not exactly a warm and loving father to Jaime and Cersei either.

- Randyll Tarly, who told his biological son Sam that he could either take the black or die in a mysterious "hunting accident."

- Cersei Lannister, who coerced Tommen into obeying her by threatening to force him to beat his own whipping boy until he bled.

- Sybelle Westerling, who used her own daughter as unknowing bait to lure King Robb into Tywin Lannister's and Walder Frey's trap.

- And, last but not least, Craster. Having a harem composed of his own daughters wins him the Worst Father In Westeros award and he has to top that by sacrificing his newborn sons/grandsons to the Others.

[Where Boars Glow]

I wonder if Cat's ranking higher on the hate lists than Ramsay Bolton (??!!!) has to do with her being a woman and a mother. Women, especially mothers, are judged very very harshly in society's eyes if they do not live up to a Perfect Mother image. I think that Cersei escapes some of this censure due to her beauty and glamor - Catelyn is beautiful, too, but she doesn't flaunt it in cloth-of-gold and seductive glances like Cersei. So Catelyn gets "She's a Wicked Stepmother to Jon," "She acts on emotion," all these invidious stereotypes of women come home to haunt her. (Meanwhile, Ramsay Bolton - boys will be boys, a man's gotta flay what a man's gotta flay...)

Meanwhile, Catelyn's treatment of Jon is mostly that she's cold and distant. She's not outright abusive except for that one time when she wished Jon were in a coma instead of Bran - and Catelyn was under tremendous emotional strain at the time (her favorite son mortally injured, she'd been without sleep for days). Meanwhile let's look at the blood parents who abuse their children in far worse ways:

- Tywin Lannister. His treatment of Tyrion - his own son - is far more abusive than Catelyn's of Jon. He's not exactly a warm and loving father to Jaime and Cersei either.

- Randyll Tarly, who told his biological son Sam that he could either take the black or die in a mysterious "hunting accident."

- Cersei Lannister, who coerced Tommen into obeying her by threatening to force him to beat his own whipping boy until he bled.

- Sybelle Westerling, who used her own daughter as unknowing bait to lure King Robb into Tywin Lannister's and Walder Frey's trap.

- And, last but not least, Craster. Having a harem composed of his own daughters wins him the Worst Father In Westeros award and he has to top that by sacrificing his newborn sons/grandsons to the Others.

I think the main difference at least for me is that

Ramsy Bolton, Tywin, Randell Tarly ect ect

I think of and i think most people do as down right villians. My low opinion of Cat is her being at the low end of actual redeemable characters with decency and humanity. I definately wouldn't lump her in with a sociopath like Ramsy.

[Castel]

I think the main difference at least for me is that

Ramsy Bolton, Tywin, Randell Tarly ect ect

I think of and i think most people do as down right villians. My low opinion of Cat is her being at the low end of actual redeemable characters with decency and humanity. I definately wouldn't lump her in with a sociopath like Ramsy.

Ramsay is a dog. It's difficult to hate a dog.

[Where Boars Glow]

Ramsay is a dog. It's difficult to hate a dog.

I think thats my point. No one has any expectations that he is anything but.....so why would we debate on the board about his moral fiber or his role as a family man.

[Scipio Africanus]

Meanwhile, Catelyn's treatment of Jon is mostly that she's cold and distant. She's not outright abusive except for that one time when she wished Jon were in a coma instead of Bran - and Catelyn was under tremendous emotional strain at the time (her favorite son mortally injured, she'd been without sleep for days). Meanwhile let's look at the blood parents who abuse their children in far worse ways:

You know this how?

While I too doubt it we don't know how Cat usually interacted with Jon. But judging from Jon's feelings and mr. Blackfish words, it wasn't exactly a positive relashionship...

Far all we know Cat had made "abusive" comments towards Jon plenty of times before GoT.