Why the Sympathy?

[Elaena Targaryen]

thanks for posting these. this is what led k3 and i to begin this discussion in another thread. grrm goes out of his way to establish sympathy for jon and not for cat very very early in the series. i think (and this is me totally speculating here) that it is grrm being so surprised at how passionate and vocal readers became about their favorite characters that led him to make the statement he did about cat being "cold" to jon only once. i think he wanted to try to calm things down.

Well Martin said a bit more than that and personally I think it helps to show that Cat derserves sympathy as well. I can't imagine just how much the whole situation hurt her and the hurt stayed with her for years, but it's very easy to imagine Jon's hurt because it is not as complex maybe? But we as readers identify and sympathize how we will so it is interesting why some don't with Cat, hence the thread. :)

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1042/

July 14, 1999

Chronology, Timeline, and Catelyn

Thus, the question I have is if Catelyn went out of her way to mistreat Jon in the past -- and which form this might have taken -- or if she rather tried to avoid and ignore him?

"Mistreatment" is a loaded word. Did Catelyn beat Jon bloody? No. Did she distance herself from him? Yes. Did she verbally abuse and attack him? No. (The instance in Bran's bedroom was obviously a very special case). But I am sure she was very protective of the rights of her own children, and in that sense always drew the line sharply between bastard and trueborn where issues like seating on the high table for the king's visit were at issue.

And Jon surely knew that she would have preferred to have him elsewhere.

[jons nissa]

I can't imagine just how much the whole situation hurt her and the hurt stayed with her for years, but it's very easy to imagine Jon's hurt because it is not as complex maybe?

i would like to make sure i understand. are you saying that jon's situation is easier to understand and therefore people are more sympathetic to him but cat's situation is too complex for most to relate to and therefore she receives less sympathy?

[Le Cygne]

The author writes Jon recalling that Catelyn never even called him by his name, until she told him go away we don't want you. Ned calling Catelyn "cruel" and Robb guessing it's his mother who upset Jon. Once Jon ran and cried, now he wants to run to the Night's Watch. He also wrote this:

Benjen Stark gave Jon a long look. “Don’t you usually eat at table with your brothers?”

“Most times,” Jon answered in a flat voice. “But tonight Lady Stark thought it might give insult to the royal family to seat a bastard among them.”

“I see.”...

“If you knew what the oath would cost you, you might be less eager to pay the price, son.”

Jon felt anger rise inside him. “I’m not your son!”

Benjen Stark stood up. “More’s the pity.”

So that's three Starks feeling sympathy for Jon, in short order.

[Jon Icefyre]

The author writes Jon recalling that Catelyn never even called him by his name, until she told him go away we don't want you. Ned calling Catelyn "cruel" and Robb guessing it's his mother who upset Jon. Once Jon ran and cried, now he wants to run to the Night's Watch. He also wrote this:

Benjen Stark gave Jon a long look. “Don’t you usually eat at table with your brothers?”

“Most times,” Jon answered in a flat voice. “But tonight Lady Stark thought it might give insult to the royal family to seat a bastard among them.”

“I see.”...

“If you knew what the oath would cost you, you might be less eager to pay the price, son.”

Jon felt anger rise inside him. “I’m not your son!”

Benjen Stark stood up. “More’s the pity.”

So that's three Starks feeling sympathy for Jon, in short order.

Cat was clearly cold to Jon. I mean Jon didn't even have to say anything to Robb after saying goodbye to Bran for Robb to know that his mother had done something to anger Jon. To me that shows evidence that other stark's have seen her cruelty towards Jon in the past. Why else would Robb jump the gun and immediately suspect Cat had made Jon upset?

[Anwar]

Because at the time, Catelyn was in the middle of an emotional breakdown due to her favorite child being near death and people in those mindsets are prone to doing nutty, cruel things.

[Jon Icefyre]

Because at the time, Catelyn was in the middle of an emotional breakdown due to her favorite child being near death and people in those mindsets are prone to doing nutty, cruel things.

I would be more inclined to believe that as the only reason if not for the fact that the Benjen Stark conversation happened before anything even happened to bran and before the Jon and Robb conversation.

[David Selig]

Cat was clearly cold to Jon. I mean Jon didn't even have to say anything to Robb after saying goodbye to Bran for Robb to know that his mother had done something to anger Jon. To me that shows evidence that other stark's have seen her cruelty towards Jon in the past. Why else would Robb jump the gun and immediately suspect Cat had made Jon upset?

Because she was snapping at everyone at the time due to her lack of sleep and grief.

I would be more inclined to believe that as the only reason if not for the fact that the Benjen Stark conversation happened before anything even happened to bran and before the Jon and Robb conversation.

What's this got to do with anything? Bastards don't see on the royal table, this is basic protocol.

[Kittykatknits]

Because she was snapping at everyone at the time due to her lack of sleep and grief.

What's this got to do with anything? Bastards don't see on the royal table, this is basic protocol.

For some reason, people rememer this and forget Tyrion's worry about sitting Oberyn's paramour during the PW, largely because of her status as a bastard.

[Newstar]

OP: I've often wondered this myself. I recall GRRM making a big show of surprise at just how hated Catelyn and Sansa were after AGOT, and (I think) indicated that he regretted having Sansa go to Cersei (which many fans view as an unforgivable act), but seriously, what did he expect? Two of the most prominent things about Cat in AGOT were 2) mistreating Jon (audience favourite, depicted sympathetically) for something which was no fault of his and 2) taking Tyrion (audience favourite, depicted sympathetically) captive in spite of all the evidence of the contrary, with disastrous consequences. Sansa is not only set up as an unflattering foil to audience favourite Arya (naive where Arya is perceptive, snobbish where Arya is not, superficial where Arya is not, being taken in by the Lannisters while Arya is not, etc. etc.), but the most significant actions she takes in AGOT are 1) siding with Joffrey over Arya and 2) going to Cersei. And then people are surprised when Cat and Sansa are hated?

It seems clear that GRRM intended Sansa to be the least sympathetic of the Starks starting out, only I think he went too far in AGOT so that subsequent "retrenchment" (Sansa saving Dontos' life, asking Joffrey to toss a coin to the grieving mother before the riot, showing compassion during Blackwater, etc. etc.) didn't sway readers who had already decided she was beyond hope.

[sansa] has become more sympathetic, partly because she comes to accept responsibility for her part in her father's death.

This quote of GRRM's struck me, though, since this doesn't seem to me to come across in the text at all. One of the other reasons that Sansa continues to be hated is that she never seems to acknowledge in the text any responsibility for her role in her father's death. The closest she comes is the quote in ACOK about how the Lannisters had repaid her love and trust with her father's head, and that Sansa would never make the mistake of loving/trusting a Lannister again. That still seems to place the blame away from her for disobeying her father and squarely on the Lannisters for being shifty assholes, though.

As for Arya and Tyrion...I've wondered (not the only one to have wondered this, of course) whether GRRM started out by portraying them in an extremely sympathetic light--the misunderstood, fierce little tomboy and the witty, unappreciated, victimized dwarf--to turn those characterizations on their head: Arya's adorable fierceness becomes a much less adorable tendency towards violence and a fixation on revenge, and Tyrion's sense of victimization fuels his anger, resentment and bitterness until they consume him. What originally appeared as sympathetic traits appear less and less sympathetic as the books progress. However, I'm not convinced that that's where GRRM is going, given the existence of Penny (a character created pretty much to show that Tyrion's not all that far gone after all) and the fact that Arya hasn't killed any innocent children yet (which seems to be the Moral Event Horizon in these books). I'd be very surprised if Tyrion and Arya turn into out and out villains; I think GRRM is going to march them right up to the brink, though.

[Daphne23]

Arya's adorable fierceness becomes a much less adorable tendency towards violence and a fixation on revenge, and Tyrion's sense of victimization fuels his anger, resentment and bitterness until they consume him. What originally appeared as sympathetic traits appear less and less sympathetic as the books progress. However, I'm not convinced that that's where GRRM is going, given the existence of Penny (a character created pretty much to show that Tyrion's not all that far gone after all) and the fact that Arya hasn't killed any innocent children yet (which seems to be the Moral Event Horizon in these books).

Your point re. Tyrion is apt, although I don't think I could ever like him again; however, I must say that, for me, Arya has leapt over the Moral Event Horizon and been skipping merrily away from it for some time. Her final chapter in Dance is incredibly telling; her reasons for her 'kills' have become increasingly weak, and now she's finally killed a man for no good reason at all (GRRM makes sure to emphasise both this fact, and the fact that Arya knows it, by having her search for reasons to kill this man throughout the chapter, and fail.) I'm not saying that Arya is evil or psychopathic, far from it; she is an extremely traumatised and damaged child, and I feel very sorry for her. However, after re-reading this chapter, I found myself wondering how Arya will ever find her way home.

To change the subject, it seems indisputable that Sansa was intended to be unsympathetic in the first book. However, I can't see any reason for GRRM to make Cat deliberately unsympathetic; if anything, we should be on her side because this adds to the horror of her transformation into Lady Stoneheart later. This seems to me to be a misstep on his part.

[Newstar]

I must say that, for me, Arya has leapt over the Moral Event Horizon and been skipping merrily away from it for some time. Her final chapter in Dance is incredibly telling; her reasons for her 'kills' have become increasingly weak, and now she's finally killed a man for no good reason at all (GRRM makes sure to emphasise both this fact, and the fact that Arya knows it, by having her search for reasons to kill this man throughout the chapter, and fail.) I'm not saying that Arya is evil or psychopathic, far from it; she is an extremely traumatised and damaged child, and I feel very sorry for her. However, after re-reading this chapter, I found myself wondering how Arya will ever find her way home.

Mileage varies on whether Arya's crossed the line yet. I go back and forth about that. As has been pointed out many times on the boards, is there much of a moral difference between what the FM ask Arya to do (kill someone on orders) compared to what, say, Westeros knights and soldiers are asked to do? As Sandor Clegane pointed out, knights are basically killers for hire. The element of stealth is absent, but morally, it seems to me to me pretty much the same; they're still killing people who haven't wronged them individually on the orders of some higher power. And it seems that the ASOIAF moral universe allows for knights to be "good" people, despite their many kills: Barristan Selmy, for example. So I wouldn't say that Arya has crossed the Moral Event Horizon just because she's killing random people who haven't done anything to her on orders.

With that said, there are knights (killers for hire) who are perceived by individuals to have done despicable, irredeemable things in Westeros: Jaime trying to kill Bran, Gregor Clegane raping and murdering Elia and killing her children, etc. The common denominator seems to be hurting or killing innocent children. (There are of course non-knights who are perceived to have done the despicable/irredeemable by killing innocent children: Theon, for starters.) Arya hasn't crossed that line yet. I personally don't think she ever will. If she does cross it, however, I think she will officially be Too Far Gone. Until she does, it's a toss-up.

However, I can't see any reason for GRRM to make Cat deliberately unsympathetic; if anything, we should be on her side because this adds to the horror of her transformation into Lady Stoneheart later. This seems to me to be a misstep on his part.

Agreed. I don't think GRRM intended to have readers react to Cat they did in AGOT (less so in subsequent books), but again, what did he expect? It seems a little disingenuous for GRRM to have Cat hating on Jon (which makes sense in context, but still) and stupidly abducting audience favourite Tyrion and then throw up his hands at readers having a negative reaction to Cat.

[jons nissa]

For some reason, people rememer this and forget Tyrion's worry about sitting Oberyn's paramour during the PW, largely because of her status as a bastard.

probably because she was seated next to oberyn at the wedding when all was said and done. that said, i think the winterfell situation was difficult to solve since no matter what was done, someone was bound to feel slighted.

[David Selig]

Agreed. I don't think GRRM intended to have readers react to Cat they did in AGOT (less so in subsequent books), but again, what did he expect? It seems a little disingenuous for GRRM to have Cat hating on Jon (which makes sense in context, but still) and stupidly abducting audience favourite Tyrion and then throw up his hands at readers having a negative reaction to Cat.

From what I recall of GRRM's comments about cat, it wasn't the dislike itself which surprised him, it was the level of vitriol which was much higher than he expected. You know, stuff like "I cheered when the bitch died at the RW" and being higher on Tower of the Hand's "Most hated list" than the likes of LF, Tywin and Ramsay.

[Mumatil]

At the beginning I preferred Arya to Sansa due to her not caring about class and position and why shes calledc Arya Underfoot. Disliked Sansa for all the obvious reasons, treats her bastard brother like nothing and just seems like a pompous airheaded brat.

But these switch when Arya becomes a bloodthirsty demon child, slicing throats and meltings mens eyes with soup. And whispering her prayer of death on her enemies, Seems all she cares about is killing and is a product of the war of the riverlands and is notihng but an empty vessel of displaced rage and hate. Joining the faceless men to causeeven more death.

Sansa on the otherhand learns how she fucked up, shes much more believable character for the real world, trapped by her deceased fathers enemies, even after many cruel acts she witnesses or is victim of, she still is pure wether you thinks its through stupidity or she is a decent person. She grows up and learns to deal with the violence. Of course not on the scale that Arya witnesses, She then is a pawn by a fool for gold to Petyr Baelish, sent to live with her crazy Aunt who tries to murder her, and her puissant spoiled son who she must take care of after Petyr sends her to her death. Oh and a few people may have or have not tried to raper her.

I think both characters will be learning the skills needed for later on and will bring back some Stark payback in their own way.

However I think Sansa in the longrun has the character developement in the bag.

I think Arya will be killed by her own family somehow. I don't see a good ending for her.

[MostInterestingManWesteros]

From what I recall of GRRM's comments about cat, it wasn't the dislike itself which surprised him, I think it's the level of vitriol which was much higher than he expected. You know, stuff like "I cheered when the bitch died at the RW" and being higher on Tower of the Hand's most hated list than the likes of LF, Tywin and Ramsay.

I really do not understand why people would have that reaction to Cat. This is a great thread! As for me i really try not to judge the characters except for the true monsters ala Gregor Clegane, Ramsay, etc. most people I know have flaws. I attributed a lot of Sansa's behavior to the fact that she knew she was betrothed to Joffrey, she was being raised to be a southern lady and thats what she wanted. We see the conversation Ned has with Arya about her behavior, but we never see Ned discuss Sansa's behavior. Even though I'm a total Arya fanboy, I can see Sansa's POV on some of her arguments with Arya. So I don't understand how she's so hated, maybe if Ned would have told Sansa the same shit he told Arya she wouldn't have ran to the Lannisters. Personally I always felt like it was a parenting fail. :blushing: (ducks)

[Jon Icefyre]

Ned stark has a part to play in Cat's relationship as well and not for the reasons that everyone has said so far like, "Why did he bring him to Winterfell". I understand early on why Ned refused to tell Cat the truth about Jon's birth if R+L=J is indeed true as he did not know Cat enough to trust her with that secrete. But at some point down the line Ned had to have realized that Catelyn was as trust worthy of a wife as it gets in Westeros and if he would have told her the truth I believe not only would she not have told anyone, but she would have been a lot more understanding of the situation, and also most likely more open to opening her heart to Jon in general.

[Éadaoin]

Ned stark has a part to play in Cat's relationship as well and not for the reasons that everyone has said so far like, "Why did he bring him to Winterfell". I understand early on why Ned refused to tell Cat the truth about Jon's birth if R+L=J is indeed true as he did not know Cat enough to trust her with that secrete. But at some point down the line Ned had to have realized that Catelyn was as trust worthy of a wife as it gets in Westeros and if he would have told her the truth I believe not only would she not have told anyone, but she would have been a lot more understanding of the situation, and also most likely more open to opening her heart to Jon in general.

Cat being kind to Jon could put him in danger, sadly. It's a bad situation overall.

[Jon Icefyre]

Cat being kind to Jon could put him in danger, sadly. It's a bad situation overall.

I don't think anyone would have thought a wife of Ned stark being kind to his bastard would have been any more suspicious than the idea of the "Honorable Lord Eddard Stark" even fathering a bastard in general. One of the reason's no one that we know of in Westeros suspects R+L=J is because Jon has no Targaryen features and looks so much like Ned.

[DrunkSister]

The author writes Jon recalling that Catelyn never even called him by his name, until she told him go away we don't want you. Ned calling Catelyn "cruel" and Robb guessing it's his mother who upset Jon. Once Jon ran and cried, now he wants to run to the Night's Watch. He also wrote this:

Benjen Stark gave Jon a long look. “Don’t you usually eat at table with your brothers?”

“Most times,” Jon answered in a flat voice. “But tonight Lady Stark thought it might give insult to the royal family to seat a bastard among them.”

“I see.”...

“If you knew what the oath would cost you, you might be less eager to pay the price, son.”

Jon felt anger rise inside him. “I’m not your son!”

Benjen Stark stood up. “More’s the pity.”

So that's three Starks feeling sympathy for Jon, in short order.

Yes, and later Cat will again be called cruel by Robb because she kept pointing out that Jon shouldn't be named his heir. I am not taking his words for truth because he is the same boy-king who in that same scene let his direwolf bare his teeth at his mother! Later he will exile her for the remainder of the war, only they all died before that was enforced.

Sure, let's believe all that characters say, never mind whether they have a clue or if they are spoiled brats.

Eddard deserves equal blame for sitting Jon so far below the family. If he had insisted, Jon would be at the high table, but that would be too close to the public eye, so he let the seating arrangement pass.

And as for NW, if Eddard had a better plan, or any plan at all, for his supposed son, he was free to bring it up. He didn't. So when he realized that his wife refused to take sole responsibility for raising his bastard in her house (Ned would be in Kings Landing) he called her cruel.

ETA: I would have divorced faster than you can say 'papers' but Catelyn doesn't have that option.

I don't mind blaming Cat for treating Jon badly, but the blame is not on her alone, let's blame her for those things she is actually responsible for.

[Jon Icefyre]

Yes, and later Cat will again be called cruel by Robb because she kept pointing out that Jon shouldn't be named his heir. I am not taking his words for truth because he is the same boy-king who in that same scene let his direwolf bare his teeth at his mother! Later he will exile her for the remainder of the war, only they all died before that was enforced.

Sure, let's believe all that characters say, never mind whether they have a clue or if they are spoiled brats.

Eddard deserves equal blame for sitting Jon so far below the family. If he had insisted, Jon would be at the high table, but that would be too close to the public eye, so he let the seating arrangement pass.

And as for NW, if Eddard had a better plan, or any plan at all, for his supposed son, he was free to bring it up. He didn't. So when he realized that his wife refused to take sole responsibility for raising his bastard in her house (Ned would be in Kings Landing) he called her cruel.

ETA: I would have divorced faster than you can say 'papers' but Catelyn doesn't have that option.

I don't mind blaming Cat for treating Jon badly, but the blame is not on her alone, let's blame her for those things she is actually responsible for.

I agree that Ned's to blame as well. Notice how mad he got when Cat brought up bringing Jon to KL? That was Ned's overprotected instincts for Jon kicking in. He tries to blame his reasoning on Cersei but the real reason was to keep Jon as far away as possible from Robert without him having to take the black. As for Robb though who cares if he let's the wolf growl you honestly think he would have let his wolf attack Cat? The wolf is pretty much one with him so if he's angry the wolf is gonna get angry, and Cat calling his brother a possible rebel down the road and someone that might put his future children in danger(if he had any) got him angry. It's not like Robb was gonna strike his mother.