Heresy 33

[Little Wing]

Everyone has a right to debate what they want. Why should you control how "bogged down" the debate is?

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

So, where were we. Timelines and the gate?

We have pretty good info that the Andal's arrival doesn't fit that 6,000 years ago cannon date from Hoster Blackwood, and GRRMs discussion of the Andal's fleeing the Valyrian Conquest. What evidence is there that the older dates like the pact, and the long night aren't accurate? We know there are no written records, but I mean quotations.

There's Sam's short list of previous Lord Commanders that depending on interpretation could mean that the wall is younger than believed. Other than that I can't think of anything.

[Melifeather]

I thought you guys were a bit harsh with him.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

I thought you guys were a bit harsh with him.

I was joking initially, but acusing someone of 'backpedaling' is confrontational behavior. I've seen him enter many other threads and be rude as well, and from his last hoorah you can see the type of poster he is. I don't see how anyone could think that was appropriate.

I'm done talking about that guy.

[Melifeather]

So, where were we. Timelines and the gate?We have pretty good info that the Andal's arrival doesn't fit that 6,000 years ago cannon date from Hoster Blackwood, and GRRMs discussion of the Andal's fleeing the Valyrian Conquest. What evidence is there that the older dates like the pact, and the long night aren't accurate? We know there are no written records, but I mean quotations.There's Sam's short list of previous Lord Commanders that depending on interpretation could mean that the wall is younger than believed. Other than that I can't think of anything.

How about, since the Andals and their Faith of the Seven hated magic, they probably warred with the Valyrians, but when the dragons showed up, they realized they couldn't win in Essos and took their magic hating religion elsewhere? Is there a date or time period when the Valyrians found the dragons? It seems once the Valyrians had dragons, their new found power went right to their heads and they became slave owners, sending their slaves into the mines searching for gold, among other things. It looks like its their fault for causing the Faceless Men to form.

Some five thousand years ago, in the early days of Valyria, they were involved in a series of wars against the Ghiscari empire. Is there any textural evidence supporting a timeline where they were in conflict with the Andals? Since Ghiscari is further east than Valyria, wouldn't the Andals have been in conflict prior to the Valyrians moving east toward the Ghiscari? That would fit in with the Andals fleeing at around 6000 years.

ETA: the Andals may even be the same people that became the slave miners.

[Ser Leftwich]

How about, since the Andals and their Faith of the Seven hated magic, they probably warred with the Valyrians, but when the dragons showed up, they realized they couldn't win in Essos and took their magic hating religion elsewhere? Is there a date or time period when the Valyrians found the dragons? It seems once the Valyrians had dragons, their new found power went right to their heads and they became slave owners, sending their slaves into the mines searching for gold, among other things. It looks like its their fault for causing the Faceless Men to form.

Some five thousand years ago, in the early days of Valyria, they were involved in a series of wars against the Ghiscari empire. Is there any textural evidence supporting a timeline where they were in conflict with the Andals? Since Ghiscari is further east than Valyria, wouldn't the Andals have been in conflict prior to the Valyrians moving east toward the Ghiscari? That would fit in with the Andals fleeing at around 6000 years.

ETA: the Andals may even be the same people that became the slave miners.

Two things:

(1) Where is the sourcing on the Andals and the Faith hating magic? It seems implicit that the Faith does, but is that spelled out anywhere?

(2) The direction the Valyrians went is completely up in the air. Andolos is west of Valyria, while Ghis is/was east. My logic says to me that: If the Valyrians were on the rise, the Valyrian/Ghis wars would be about the big kid on the block (Ghis) taking out the upstart. But it did not work out that way.

I want to seem a image of the tapestry that Xaro gives Dany in ADwD.

ETA: Also, Ghis is much closer.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

(2) The direction the Valyrians went is completely up in the air. Andolos is west of Valyria, while Ghis is/was east. My logic says to me that: If the Valyrians were on the rise, the Valyrian/Ghis wars would be about the big kid on the block (Ghis) taking out the upstart. But it did not work out that way.

I want to seem a image of the tapestry that Xaro gives Dany in ADwD.

That's what the wiki says. That they were envious of the dragons. I'm at work so I can't look for quotes atm.

[Melifeather]

Well, those slaves had to come from some where. The origin of the slaves isn't mentioned, but the route they would have taken to get to the free cities of Braavos, Myr, Pentos, Lorath, Lys, and Tyrosh would have taken them through the Hills of Andalos. Perhaps some of these fleeing slaves settled the Hills of Andalos before continuing westward?

Just spitballin'

ETA: I don't think you can quite discredit 6000 years for the Andals.

[Ser Leftwich]

That's what the wiki says. That they were envious of the dragons. I'm at work so I can't look for quotes atm.

ASoS Dany Chapter 27

"She knew the answer, though; she could see it in the glitter of their eyes and the smiles they tried so hard to hide. Astapor had thousands of eunuchs, and even of eunuchs, and even more slave boys waiting to be cut, but there were only three living dragons in all the great wide world. And the Ghiscari lust for dragons. How could they not? Five times had Old Ghis contended with Valyria when the world was young, and five times gone down to bleak defeat. For the Freehold had dragons, and the Empire had none."

Seems to me like Dany is thinking about the current Ghiscari (Astapori), the slavers she is trading with.

[Melifeather]

Yes, Daenerys is thinking about the current Ghiscari, but the "five times" were the five great wars that took place starting as early as 5000 years ago.

I just have a suspicion that the Andals were among the slavers and had left right about the time the Valyrians found the dragons. It's kind of interesting too that Varys and Illyrio are connected, working apart, one in Westeros, one in Pentos. Do you suppose the Andals and the Faceless Men are more closely related than we think? It makes sense if you also consider the Andal influence of the maesters and how the maesters have worked to rid the world of dragons.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Black Crow,

You maintain that the wall has always existed, and(if I understand correctly) periodically the others bring on a Long Night from a winter build up caused by the wall. The last Long Night as legend tells had the white walkers conquering kingdoms and causing havoc until the last hero did something. Are you saying that everything took place North of the wall, or how did they get South of the wall?

T-Minus 6 hours and counting.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Yes, Daenerys is thinking about the current Ghiscari, but the "five times" were the five great wars that took place starting as early as 5000 years ago.

I just have a suspicion that the Andals were among the slavers and had left right about the time the Valyrians found the dragons. It's kind of interesting too that Varys and Illyrio are connected, working apart, one in Westeros, one in Pentos. Do you suppose the Andals and the Faceless Men are more closely related than we think? It makes sense if you also consider the Andal influence of the maesters and how the maesters have worked to rid the world of dragons.

Most references to the faceless men seem to link them to Bravos which is where Arya finds them. Bravos was founded by escaped slaves the Valyrian empire, so I wouldn't doubt that there might be Andals, or Andal predecessors there. Doesn't the kindly man admit that the aspects of the seven are part of the many faced god? I can't recall any connection beyond that though. Actually I think there are a list of various temples in Arya's chapters.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Man that salty droplet of water from the Black Gate is really bugging me! What is with that!?

[Tyryan Lannister]

I think it's racism. Hatin' on giants.

And the little folk

[Tyryan Lannister]

He did have a bit point out that we were a little bogged down in debating "who" the door was and less what the door is/could be.

Everyone, deep breath....

"Keep calm and be less snarky."

"Don't Panic"?

[Tyryan Lannister]

I thought you guys were a bit harsh with him.

I lie down for a nap and all hell breaks loose :frown5:

[Melifeather]

Since the Brits are 6 hours ahead of Central time zone, I'll have to wait until tomorrow morning to read Black Crow's reply! There'll probably be another 40+ posts to read also!

I think the magical Wall always existed, but the physical one wasn't built until after the Long Night, but not immediately as a result of the Long Night. I think the First Men brought the Long Night upon themselves by crossing into faerie/White-Walker-land and pissed them off by establishing the Fist. We can only speculate the details of the story of the Last Hero, because Old Nan didn't get to finish, but I think a new agreement had to have been made. Since the Starks settled in Winterfell and not north of the Wall, which by the way appears to be a central location within the northern area south of the Wall, there must be certain conditions that have to be met.

Whatever the conditions were, I think intermarriage was acceptable. It were the usurping forces of Andals plus the Lord Stark at the time of the 13th LC that decided it wasn't.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Yes, Daenerys is thinking about the current Ghiscari, but the "five times" were the five great wars that took place starting as early as 5000 years ago.

I just have a suspicion that the Andals were among the slavers and had left right about the time the Valyrians found the dragons. It's kind of interesting too that Varys and Illyrio are connected, working apart, one in Westeros, one in Pentos. Do you suppose the Andals and the Faceless Men are more closely related than we think? It makes sense if you also consider the Andal influence of the maesters and how the maesters have worked to rid the world of dragons.

It supposedly started quite a bit before 5000 years ago since that's supposed to be when the last war ended and Valyria destroyed and conquered the last of Old Ghis

As to the slaves, I feel that it's likely they were from all over, just like is currently the case with the slave trade. As to your earlier post about the Free Cities and the Valyrians needing to go through Andalos, well, no, they didn't, for the only inland ones, Norvos and Qohor, can easily be reached from east of Andalos, while the rest are ports, so boat is just as likely... and then there's also the fact that Braavos was founded by the escaped slaves, not the Valyrians themselves. And then we also have from Martin that the Andals came to Westeros fleeing the Rhoynar who were actually the ones fleeing the Valyrians...

really wish we were actually in closer contact so we could sit down and hammer this stuff out in person (AND with a map so we could more easily demonstrate it visually)... This internet talking stuff can be really difficult sometimes

[Tyryan Lannister]

Since the Brits are 6 hours ahead of Central time zone, I'll have to wait until tomorrow morning to read Black Crow's reply! There'll probably be another 40+ posts to read also!

I think the magical Wall always existed, but the physical one wasn't built until after the Long Night, but not immediately as a result of the Long Night. I think the First Men brought the Long Night upon themselves by crossing into faerie/White-Walker-land and pissed them off by establishing the Fist. We can only speculate the details of the story of the Last Hero, because Old Nan didn't get to finish, but I think a new agreement had to have been made. Since the Starks settled in Winterfell and not north of the Wall, which by the way appears to be a central location within the northern area south of the Wall, there must be certain conditions that have to be met.

Whatever the conditions were, I think intermarriage was acceptable. It were the usurping forces of Andals plus the Lord Stark at the time of the 13th LC that decided it wasn't.

Pretty much sums up my beliefs as well. Nicely done

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

I'm still riding my crazy train which I shall henceforth refer to as The Last Doorman Theory :)

Wait, maybe The Little Greenseer that could...

Wait, no The Last Treero... Mmmm, thats the ticket :D