Heresy 33

[Ser Wun Wun]

And the point of all this is that the Azor Ahai prophecy was made or at least recorded in Asshai 5,000 years ago - at the very time when the Valyrians and their dragons were trashing the Ghiscari Empire and points east.

ETA: and therefore has little or no connection with a Long Night supposedly taking place in Westeros 3,000 years earlier

Really? Are your sure? Because I just read the last 4 pages and then this and was not sure where that connection came from at all. I think I may not have what it takes to run with the Heresy gang, sad to say... :crying:

But I'm curious, how do you know the AA prophecy originated 5,000 years ago? I don't think I've heard that before. And ummm..."explain it to me like I'm a six year old" please, or I might get lost again. Seriously :P

[Black Wolf Smith]

and I think that the most important part of that line relates to Shiera: IIRC Martin said in an SSM from a couple years ago (like '06, '07 or so) that there were some who thought that her mother was actually far older than she claimed and that she used the "dark arts" to lengthen her life/postpone her death and make her look younger (glamour herself if you will). Hopefully you guys can already see where I'm going with this.

.

ETA: http://www.westeros....Shiera_Seastar/ the SSM with the appropriate information from March 2006

I don't know if I call it a theory, more of a feeling really, That Taena Merryweather is the daughter/Grand of Shiera. IIRC she claims to older then she looks, she is from Essos and has way too much intrest in the Iron Throne.

That's what the wiki says. That they were envious of the dragons. I'm at work so I can't look for quotes atm.

Funny I am at work and have couple more hours to kill, before I have to do anything.

This the place for all things crackpot, no? Importing a discussion from another thread as if it is....

Another Wun? This is not the place for all crackpot. We do believe that the vast majority is looking at the wrong things. We look for the game of Ice and Fire, over the Game of Thrones. We look at the unusually, different and Greyer side of things. Crack pot is always welcome, thats where some of our best ideas start from, but we aren't just crack pots, thank you very much.

Someone brought up Tze. She is one of the best posters on the boards. Every thing she writes is not only well written, but most come from well out side the box, and she can make most of us reexamine how we view what is going on in the series. I am surprised she isn't a heretic.

[Black Wolf Smith]

Really? Are your sure? Because I just read the last 4 pages and then this and was not sure where that connection came from at all. I think I may not have what it takes to run with the Heresy gang, sad to say... :crying:

But I'm curious, how do you know the AA prophecy originated 5,000 years ago? I don't think I've heard that before. And ummm..."explain it to me like I'm a six year old" please, or I might get lost again. Seriously :P

One of the founding heresy's is that the timeline we have isn't correct. GRRM has more then hinted at that fact, but the orthodox would have you believe that timeline is 12,000 years old, and we don't. We however don't all agree on how long its been since man came to Westeros. Some think it has only been a few thousand years, others longer. There is a lot of things that happend at certain points in time such as 8k years, that all seem to over lap. Most of us think it was much closer, maybe even 2k that the long night, the end of "age of Heroes" and the Last Hero.

The timeline for Essos is better documented then Westeros, and so some are compairing things that happen there, with what in Westeros to support their ideas of the real timeline.

[Ser Leftwich]

Really? Are your sure? Because I just read the last 4 pages and then this and was not sure where that connection came from at all. I think I may not have what it takes to run with the Heresy gang, sad to say... :crying:

But I'm curious, how do you know the AA prophecy originated 5,000 years ago? I don't think I've heard that before. And ummm..."explain it to me like I'm a six year old" please, or I might get lost again. Seriously :P

Welcome Ser Wun Wun.

Black Crow was talking about a quote someone put up a while back. This one. Melisandre talking to Stannis.

From ASoS Davos Chapter 63

“You are he who must stand against the Other. The one whose coming was prophesied five thousand years ago. The red comet was your herald. You are the prince that was promised, and if you fail the world fails with you.” Melisandre went to him, her red lips parted, her ruby throbbing. “Give me this boy,” she whispered, “and I will give you your kingdom.”

[Black Crow]

Really? Are your sure? Because I just read the last 4 pages and then this and was not sure where that connection came from at all. I think I may not have what it takes to run with the Heresy gang, sad to say... :crying:

But I'm curious, how do you know the AA prophecy originated 5,000 years ago? I don't think I've heard that before. And ummm..."explain it to me like I'm a six year old" please, or I might get lost again. Seriously :P

Har, not quite back far enough...

No "explanation" is necessary cos its canon:

Its in the Davos chapter after Joffrey turns up his toes in Storm of Swords/Blood and Gold. Learning that Joffrey has been offed (cue wild cheering), Davos realises that Mel will use this as justication for sacrificing Edric "Kings Blood" Storm and runs him out of Dodge just ahead of the bailiff's men.

This is just as well because as she hectors Stannis:"You are he who must stand against the Other. The one whose coming was prophesied five thousand years ago. The red comet was your herald. You are the prince that was promised, and if you fail the world fails with you.

ETA: Beaten to it by Ser Leftwich, I really should have checked before rushing in. It was me that posted it, but its a measure of how fast this thread runs that "a while back" was the bottom of page 13 at noon the day before yesterday (Central time)

[Black Crow]

And just to indulge myself with post 4,000 before rushing back to work, there's another wrinkle to consider here.

The Azor Ahai prophecy is made or recorded in Asshai 5,000 years ago when Ghiscar and points east are being hammered by the Valyrians and their dragons. Why then would it be taken up by the Valyrians as the Prince that was Promised? Remember, as I said, in Volantis the Red Lot are extremely hostile towards the Valyrians forted up behind the Black Walls and presumably the loathing is reciprocated.

But if this is so, then where does Westeros come into it?

[TheTizer]

And let me indulge and congratulate you on your 4000th post! #Proud

I am a mere mortal, well more an animal, with less than 50 posts!

In response to your post, I have a feeling some global event happened back in the day. That's why the Asshai'i and Valyrians have similair prophecies (i.e. Prince that was promised and AA). Perhaps another larger comet they interpretted differently?...Or something else..

[Capon Breath]

Snip

The Azor Ahai prophecy is made or recorded in Asshai 5,000 years ago ...

Snip

If 1000 years ago is possibly a catch all for "a long time ago"

could 5000 years ago be something similar?

Also - if there is a view that there may have been more than 1 long night (not sure if there is or If I have made this up) Could 1000 / 5000 be a catch all for each long night cycle. Eg if something happened 4000 yrs ago it actually happend 4 long nights ago?

[Tyryan Lannister]

If 1000 years ago is possibly a catch all for "a long time ago"

could 5000 years ago be something similar?

Also - if there is a view that there may have been more than 1 long night (not sure if there is or If I have made this up) Could 1000 / 5000 be a catch all for each long night cycle. Eg if something happened 4000 yrs ago it actually happend 4 long nights ago?

There is an old, old Heresy theory about the nature of the seasons that this would meld quite well with.

It goes that the Long Night was not a singular, out-of-the-ordinary event, but the result of a "seasonal alignment"

This "seasonal alignment" is such that there are a couple of different seasonal cycles going on. There's the "regular" seasons, where you'll have summer for X years, an autumn for a year or two, a winter for Y years, and a spring for a year or two and back into summer; then there's the "background" seasons which also switch between summer and winter (with the "background" winters being roughly a generation or two long while the summers are the ones that go on seemingly forever) but that take thousands of years or something like that to change, with a Long Night occurring when a "regular" winter occurs during a "background" winter.

The easiest real world example that I can come up with is that a Long Night is simply when you have a winter during an Ice Age,

Tying it back into your questions, if it is something cyclical like this as opposed to being a part of a war by the White Walkers, then it would make sense for there to have been other Long Nights before besides the one that we know of.

ETA: Congrats BC on 4000! Long Live Heresy! :commie:

[Little Wing]

And just to indulge myself with post 4,000 before rushing back to work, there's another wrinkle to consider here.

The Azor Ahai prophecy is made or recorded in Asshai 5,000 years ago when Ghiscar and points east are being hammered by the Valyrians and their dragons. Why then would it be taken up by the Valyrians as the Prince that was Promised? Remember, as I said, in Volantis the Red Lot are extremely hostile towards the Valyrians forted up behind the Black Walls and presumably the loathing is reciprocated.

But if this is so, then where does Westeros come into it?

Well, there was that woods witch that prophesied the Prince That Was Promised would come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella, so the Targs jumped to the conclusion she's talking about Azor Ahai Reborn

ETA: I mean, they all got it right it seems, the line will produce both the PTWP (Jon) and AAR (Dany)- I guess :dunno:

Congrats on the 4,000 posts! :eek:

[Tyryan Lannister]

I don't know if I call it a theory, more of a feeling really, That Taena Merryweather is the daughter/Grand of Shiera. IIRC she claims to older then she looks, she is from Essos and has way too much intrest in the Iron Throne.

Funny I am at work and have couple more hours to kill, before I have to do anything.

Another Wun? This is not the place for all crackpot. We do believe that the vast majority is looking at the wrong things. We look for the game of Ice and Fire, over the Game of Thrones. We look at the unusually, different and Greyer side of things. Crack pot is always welcome, thats where some of our best ideas start from, but we aren't just crack pots, thank you very much.

Someone brought up Tze. She is one of the best posters on the boards. Every thing she writes is not only well written, but most come from well out side the box, and she can make most of us reexamine how we view what is going on in the series. I am surprised she isn't a heretic.

Correct. While we do indulge in a lot of discussion surrounding crack pot, we still like to keep it focused on the Game of Ice and Fire, with an emphasis on the Ice side and things not being quite what the seem relative to Jon, the Watch, the Starks, the Others, and the Children. Over time we have seen how a lot of other areas of the story tie in to this, but that is what we'd like for them to do: tie into the Old Gods/Ice side of things.

Now, this is not to say that we will shun you for going OT. Instead what we tend to do is add our two cents and then direct you to the appropriate thread. Sometimes, however, the seemingly unrelated cracked pots end up, after a little bit of discussion, becoming something that does relate to Heresy, which, beyond some(?) of us just trying to be good people on the forums, is why we are still welcoming towards the Off Topic Cracked Pots... it's just best if you label it as OT so that we can flag it as possibly needing to be directed elsewhere. An example would be the Aegon VI arguments. Every once in a while something related to Aegon does fit in here (such as how he can be used to possibly foreshadow something, or how something foreshadowing a Heresy thing also can foreshadow for Aegon-- see my posts about Shiera Seastar earlier) but in general we don't want to get into that topic, so we would direct you to one of the Aegon threads.

But still, don't be deterred from posting an off topic cracked pot; we try to be a welcoming forum and will attempt to help posters as much as possible while also trying to maintain the flow, topics, and integrity of Heresy (although that regrettably doesn't always happen--although it tends to fall apart when someone comes in with a determined agenda instead of being purely inquisitive about the ideas that Black Crow posits in his opening statements)

ETA: as to the Taena thing... I've been wondering that as well... especially since it does seem that she is trying to subvert Cersei but Cersei is just to stupid to realize she's being played

[Tyryan Lannister]

And just to indulge myself with post 4,000 before rushing back to work, there's another wrinkle to consider here.

The Azor Ahai prophecy is made or recorded in Asshai 5,000 years ago when Ghiscar and points east are being hammered by the Valyrians and their dragons. Why then would it be taken up by the Valyrians as the Prince that was Promised? Remember, as I said, in Volantis the Red Lot are extremely hostile towards the Valyrians forted up behind the Black Walls and presumably the loathing is reciprocated.

But if this is so, then where does Westeros come into it?

Well, there was that woods witch that prophesied the Prince That Was Promised would come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella, so the Targs jumped to the conclusion she's talking about Azor Ahai Reborn :dunno:

Congrats on the 4,000 posts! :eek:

The bigger question, I think, is not where Westeros comes into it, but where do the Targaryens come into it? Where do they come from (besides just "Valyria")? What exactly is their story? There are some interesting indications that the Targaryens were kind of outsiders within the Valyrian aristocracy, such as that book that has Exile in the title, the Targaryens' apparently long-held anti-slavery stance, the fact that they were living on the very farthest edges of the Empire, and that one Targaryen daughter who was prophetic and prophesied the Doom among a few other things apparently.

[Elaena Targaryen]

Another thing about the Azor Ahai and Prince that was Promised prophecies that bugs me is the three heads of the dragon. Why is Rhaegar the only one bringing up the 3 heads and Mel and Bennero are oblivious? Could the Ghost of High Heart prophecized the three heads as well as the line the prince would be born from? I'm just trying to figure out if the heads really are of importance to AA/PtwP.

[Lummel]

Question: what is a three headed dragon?

Answer: a Targaryen.

[Little Wing]

Another thing about the Azor Ahai and Prince that was Promised prophecies that bugs me is the three heads of the dragon. Why is Rhaegar the only one bringing up the 3 heads and Mel and Bennero are oblivious? Could the Ghost of High Heart prophecized the three heads as well as the line the prince would be born from? I'm just trying to figure out if the heads really are of importance to AA/PtwP.

Well, is this that Targ prophetic thing? Rhaegar having his own prophetic visions about that specific part (the three heads)?

ETA: Or what Lummel said :laugh:

The bigger question, I think, is not where Westeros comes into it, but where do the Targaryens come into it? Where do they come from (besides just "Valyria")? What exactly is their story? There are some interesting indications that the Targaryens were kind of outsiders within the Valyrian aristocracy, such as that book that has Exile in the title, the Targaryens' apparently long-held anti-slavery stance, the fact that they were living on the very farthest edges of the Empire, and that one Targaryen daughter who was prophetic and prophesied the Doom among a few other things apparently.

They're definitely the counterpart family to the Starks in the supernatural department. They've got the prophetic thing going and a bit of madness, from time to time, while the Starks have the greenseeing/warg gift and have a touch of the "wolf" blood, from time to time.... and the direwolves/dragons as pets, of course... Jon being a mix of the two special snowflake families really should be powerful...

[Tyryan Lannister]

Another thing about the Azor Ahai and Prince that was Promised prophecies that bugs me is the three heads of the dragon. Why is Rhaegar the only one bringing up the 3 heads and Mel and Bennero are oblivious? Could the Ghost of High Heart prophecized the three heads as well as the line the prince would be born from? I'm just trying to figure out if the heads really are of importance to AA/PtwP.

Did Aemon ever talk about the three heads?

And actually, maybe the three heads aren't meant to represent three distinct people, but rather three now-distinct families: the Targaryens, the Blackfyres, and the Baratheons, all of which can (supposedly for the Baratheons) trace a common ancestry to Aegon the Conq's father (Orys Baratheon is thought to have been Aegon's bastard half-brother) If it's supposed to represent the three "Targaryen Families" as opposed to three people, then there's actually a reason for Aegon to be a secret Blackfyre and for it also ties the Game of Thrones more into the Game of Ice and Fire with Aegon representing the Blackfyres, Dany representing the Targaryens, and either Stannis or Gendry representing the Baratheons (I want to put Stannis as the Baratheon, but I just don't see him working together with the other two... although it also could be not that the three heads will work together but that they will be working at the same time and their actions combined would be the "single play" by Fire)

[Tyryan Lannister]

Question: what is a three headed dragon?

Answer: a Targaryen.

But, like with most other things, it's more complicated than that...

Blackfyres also have a three headed dragon, and I believe that there's another Valyrian descent family that has a three headed dragon devouring itself as its symbol

[Little Wing]

Did Aemon ever talk about the three heads?

And actually, maybe the three heads aren't meant to represent three distinct people, but rather three now-distinct families: the Targaryens, the Blackfyres, and the Baratheons, all of which can (supposedly for the Baratheons) trace a common ancestry to Aegon the Conq's father (Orys Baratheon is thought to have been Aegon's bastard half-brother) If it's supposed to represent the three "Targaryen Families" as opposed to three people, then there's actually a reason for Aegon to be a secret Blackfyre and for it also ties the Game of Thrones more into the Game of Ice and Fire with Aegon representing the Blackfyres, Dany representing the Targaryens, and either Stannis or Gendry representing the Baratheons (I want to put Stannis as the Baratheon, but I just don't see him working together with the other two... although it also could be not that the three heads will work together but that they will be working at the same time and their actions combined would be the "single play" by Fire)

Don't the Dornish Martells have Targ blood as well (through marriage though)?

[Melifeather]

Only 32 posts to get through this morning!

And just to indulge myself with post 4,000 before rushing back to work, there's another wrinkle to consider here.

The Azor Ahai prophecy is made or recorded in Asshai 5,000 years ago when Ghiscar and points east are being hammered by the Valyrians and their dragons. Why then would it be taken up by the Valyrians as the Prince that was Promised? Remember, as I said, in Volantis the Red Lot are extremely hostile towards the Valyrians forted up behind the Black Walls and presumably the loathing is reciprocated.

But if this is so, then where does Westeros come into it?

I was under the impression that Valyria was a temperate to warm climate, no? The prophecy includes references to the cold and to darkness falling over the land.

There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world.

I understand the symbolism of "darkness" and that it could be "enslavement", but it does seem to point to a Long Night coming as well as a red comet. Have Long Night's spread into Essos?

The bigger question, I think, is not where Westeros comes into it, but where do the Targaryens come into it? Where do they come from (besides just "Valyria")? What exactly is their story? There are some interesting indications that the Targaryens were kind of outsiders within the Valyrian aristocracy, such as that book that has Exile in the title, the Targaryens' apparently long-held anti-slavery stance, the fact that they were living on the very farthest edges of the Empire, and that one Targaryen daughter who was prophetic and prophesied the Doom among a few other things apparently.

IIRC, the Targaryens moved to Dragonstone as a result of the prophetic daughter, but the Doom didn't come until 12 years after they moved. It is an interesting thing you bring up, their being anti-slavery versus the general Valyrian populace. Daenerys is anti-slavery, but how do we know her ancesters were also?

Question: what is a three headed dragon?

Answer: a Targaryen.

Is it really as simple as that?

Did Aemon ever talk about the three heads?

And actually, maybe the three heads aren't meant to represent three distinct people, but rather three now-distinct families: the Targaryens, the Blackfyres, and the Baratheons, all of which can (supposedly for the Baratheons) trace a common ancestry to Aegon the Conq's father (Orys Baratheon is thought to have been Aegon's bastard half-brother) If it's supposed to represent the three "Targaryen Families" as opposed to three people, then there's actually a reason for Aegon to be a secret Blackfyre and for it also ties the Game of Thrones more into the Game of Ice and Fire with Aegon representing the Blackfyres, Dany representing the Targaryens, and either Stannis or Gendry representing the Baratheons (I want to put Stannis as the Baratheon, but I just don't see him working together with the other two... although it also could be not that the three heads will work together but that they will be working at the same time and their actions combined would be the "single play" by Fire)

Stannis does not play well with others. :laugh:

[Melifeather]

You sir, are correct. Post #18:

http://asoiaf.wester...ilers-hardhome/

I very much enjoyed reading this thread up to and through tze's first comment. I think she's onto something, and I noticed that she doubted Torrhen was a skinchanger. That fits in with my suspicions that the Stark bloodline had been interfered with by a bastard somewhere in time and had only recently been reestablished during Lord Beron Stark's time. The reason why I chose Lord Jon Stark as the place to insert the bastard story is because of Ygritte telling Jon Snow that he had a "bad luck name" and it would echo the current story of the bastard, Ramsay Snow declaring himself the Trueborn Lord of Winterfell.