Do you think Cersei's Walk of Shame was misogynistic?

[Cas Stark]

One point, for cuckolding Robert she's accused of high treason, and will be executed if proven guilty. That's an entire different case. The walk was her penance for sleeping, after Bob's death, with Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack (and, arguably, Moon Boy). And that would be a real shame, if not for the little matter of Cersei being a lunatic, murderous monster, which does make it fucking hard to sympathize with her.

I have zero sympathy for her and have not had any since she killed Sansa's wolf. But, to your point, in a dynastic culture, all female adultery has to be punished more harshly because its only by strictly controlling female sexual behavior that legitimacy of the line can be ensured, so they have to keep a tight lid on it all around. Though you are right, since her adultery that is being punished is post-marriage that does put it a lot higher on the misogyny scale as she's being punished for just having sex as a widow, nobodies heritage is at stake since any child she might conceive would clearly be a bastard and not in line to inherit the throne or anything from the father either.

[The BlackBear]

Misogynist? I think she got off easier than a man would have. It is misogynist that men are whipped while a woman just has to walk around naked.

In many ways I think she'd rather have a flogging than the walk. The walk broke her power, and was traumatising. A flogging is a momentary (if extreme) pain thing, in private. To the wide world she's till the beautiful powerful queen she always was.

If I was in her position I'd have preferred a physical punishment.

[jon stark I]

She is being punished because she uses sex as her tool.She even says she would sleep with everyone in Kingslanding to ensure her sons security.he says she was worried but they know she used Kettleback to murder former High Septon.

[MindLikeWarp]

In many ways I think she'd rather have a flogging than the walk. The walk broke her power, and was traumatising. A flogging is a momentary (if extreme) pain thing, in private. To the wide world she's till the beautiful powerful queen she always was.

If I was in her position I'd have preferred a physical punishment.

I can accept that. I still think walking naked is preferable to being tied up and beaten for day. But I can see Cersei, being okay with that, though the scars would make her unattractive to any suitors.

I think the punishment is supposed to be something you wouldn't like. Since she would have preferred the flogging, that is exactly why she should have a different punishment. One that would traumatize. Punishment is not supposed to be something you would want. :)

[patriciaenola]

In short, yes, it was very misogynistic. It was designed to break Cersei's pride, and did so in a way that humiliated her as a woman.

Pretty much. It wasn't any worse than Sansa being stripped naked and beaten in front of the entire court at King's Landing or Catelyn's naked dead body being thrown in the river, but those were both clearly evil things done to create sympathy.

It was a savage way to treat anyone - Woman or Man - and the mysongenist old chunk of Crow-Bait - the high septon seemed to embody for me the sort of Priest who is apt to be fond of the pleasures of the flesh but woe betide any one he does not favour - besides - he would not have actually fancied Cersei - she was a woman and being a High Septon he very likely preferred small boys.

I have been researching some of the probable sources of History for Martin's Scenes - and I think I must watch my choice of words and spelling here - The High Septon is Highly Suspect in my eyes - be is a bit of an Old Borgia - no not Cesare - his dad - the one who was Pope for a time - a part given to a fine actor Jeremy Irons - Pope Alexander 6th - Will he have a part in the TV Version of A song of Ice and Fire

But I digress - the reason for all this waffle - is to illustrate an opinion that I believe Martin had no great love for priests of this day and age - and in showing this in his books - and the TV - where I am told Martin is collaborating with HBO In the light of a present-day exhibition of hypocricy shown by a number of priests of high rank George Martin is only illustrating a parallell - in fact comparing today with the cusoms of yesteryear.

There are people - small folk of course - starving and drinking dirty water because there is nothing else - just like the Residents of the shacks in Flea Bottom - they are not living in Civilised places - like the USA and England and many parts of Europe / Westeros - mostly these similar folk live in out of the way places - parts of the Third World in our Times they are the equivalen of the Flea Bottom area of Westeros -Here in Westeros - Art has in any case imitated life - and it is prevalent today - as it ever was

When is the next Merchant Ship to Kings Landing - my Dragon is not big enough yet to fly - she is a female Talitha and wants to meet / mate with Drogon and meet his Mother

[Almighty Stannis]

Strange, strange thread. It seems obvious to me that forcing a woman to walk about naked in front of a crowd as punishment is misogynistic. The world George created is steeped in misogyny and xenophobia, I'm surprised some people haven't clocked onto this after 5 books.

[Good King Daemon]

I agree that the walk was misogynistic and for any other character I'd think it was unfair but for Cersei I think it was the perfect punishment for all her crimes. Just like when Jaime lost his hand she has now lost what made her who she was, her beauty and the respect she had as a queen.

[Ser Gareth]

Strange, strange thread. It seems obvious to me that forcing a woman to walk about naked in front of a crowd as punishment is misogynistic. The world George created is steeped in misogyny and xenophobia, I'm surprised some people haven't clocked onto this after 5 books.

It's not so much that, as being steeped in double standards. Which is life all over. I always find myself amused when people single out racism or sexism when the greatest prejudice happening in the books is actually the ruling class treating their serfs like chattel. Compared to what happened to a lot of the peasants during the war (and generally) Cersei's walk was more like a walk in the park.

I just fail to see why any perceived wrong doing, or bad characteristic, of/to a female character in the series is so heavily scrutinised and argued over. I'm glad that Selyse's torture was off page, otherwise it would probably be regarded as misogynistic torture porn........ :bang:

[Dreadwolf]

I agree that the walk was misogynistic and for any other character I'd think it was unfair but for Cersei I think it was the perfect punishment for all her crimes. Just like when Jaime lost his hand she has now lost what made her who she was, her beauty and the respect she had as a queen.

I think you have a point there. I do not agree that she deserves all that (if the phrase “it was the perfect punishment for all her crimes” in your statement somehow implies that). Because the truth is no one deserves to be humiliated.

Eddard explained once why he do not sent Loras but Berick against Gregor Clegane. Because the purpose of jurisdiction (= act and process of administrating the law) is that the justice and not the vengeance shall be eventually served.

Cersei Lannister is not my favorite character but I learned to respect her. She is brave, bold or perhaps audacious upto insolence. She was not afraid to meet the consequences of her deeds and views of life. And most important she is a woman who will flinch and accept the role which society allotted to her and be happy as a cow or a sheep can be. She will not just follow the common sense about what is right and wrong without reflecting these through the prism of her own emotions. And that is not necessary wrong.

Her courage and pride were perhaps the most distinguished [positive or almost positive] features she showed. (She was a loving mother of course but that is not my point there). Her pride /Lannisters’ or beyond/ serves to her more or less like her shield the way Ned had his the sense of honor and unspotted reputation. (I mean both of these are equal signs of personal vainglory. The pride and honor are kind of twins and they are nice and ugly all the same.)

Her marsh naked for all the world can see her humiliation was what it was for Eddard his self-confession of conspiracy against Joffrey = revealing himself as absolutely dishonorable person at the time of the act.

She reached that point due to her own flaws and it came as a direct consequances out of her deeds/ plot (she wanted more or less the same fate for Margery).

In a similar way Jaime (shall blame himself most of all others) for he was captured after his stupid and noisy attempt to best Brienne and run-away despite of his wows to Catelyn Stark. Then he might have not lost his fighting hand had he been in position to better control his pride and tongue in front of the Brave Companion.

If we accept that the instrument Theon was most pride of ever was also removed then we can spot kind of pattern there in our story.

It may be said that all these crucial moments produced positive effects. Ned overcame his honor/ pride and saved his daughter, Jaime was given a second chance to seek the answers of the questions long forgotten, including what is the true knight and maybe true love. Theon is not the same selfish, ambitious and lusting for attention and love as he had been before. What redemption waits Cersei we shall wait and see some day (if ever). But I definitely thing that this harsh punishment and humiliation was brutal act of a sick man in a sick society.

[Petyr Patter]

I think its far better to focus on the Karma angle then the misogyny angle.

Cersei was trying to falsely convict Margaery of sleeping with a large number of paramours. One paramour would have been treason, but Cersei went for a large number to further increase Margaery's shame.

Instead, it's Cersei's who gets shamed, basically falling into her own trap.

For me, Cersei is one of those characters that no matter what happens to her, you can't feel sorry for her. Keep in mind, she killed Lady.

[ambi76]

Misogonistc or not it's ABSOLUTELY VILE. Especially witnessing it from the point of view of the already very disturbed mind of Cersei (IMO it totally trashes any rest of sanity that woman still posessed).

Karmic? I don't know. What would be karmic now if she was forcibly married off to the ugliest of Tyrell's to get her under control for good. :devil:

[Riptide]

The only reason I can see posters thinking the punishment was misogynistic is that they don't know the meaning of the word; it's NOT a synonym for "sexist", which the walk obviously was. The High Sparrow has shown no dislike of 'womanity', if you will, as a whole. Even his widow quote could even apply to men, IIRC.

Edit: Great post Ser Lepus.

[Steinnis]

She deserved it, she definitely needed taking down a peg or two.

[Howling Mad]

If the High Septon had sentenced Tyrion to a walk of shame for whoring would that punishment have been considered hatred toward men? What if the High Septon ordered Tyrion castrated for whoring is that hatred toward men? The punishment is not intended to be hatred toward one sex or another. It intended to achieve a purpose. Even by mediveval standards these punishments were/are designed to be cruel, to humilate, to engender shame, and achieve ridcule. Seems to me the WoS worked as intened irrespective of our 21st sensibilities.

[Winterfell's ghost]

No. Man or woman, it is totally humiliating. It doesn't have nothing to do with some kind of mysoginistic thing.

[bertramboso]

The walk of shame has pretty clear antecedents in actual practice in medieval Europe. For example, self-confessed heretics, if they were nobles and had enough power to escape the local inquisition's tender mercies, sometimes were forced to proceed through their principal town scourging themselves. In that sense, it's gender-neutral.

Yet in this specific instance, if we're going to use terms like misogyny to describe anything that happened in the Middle Ages/Westeros, it's clearly such and intended to be so: the public shaming of a woman who is usually portrayed as having built up her power base because of backdoor dealings in the corridors of power, by exposing her fundamental similitude with the common women of the city.

[GCabot]

As Karakoran already explained earlier, I think most of you are misusing the term "misogynistic."

Misogyny is the hatred of women, usually characterized by distrust, suspicion, and prejudice of the sex, or denigrating or outright dismissal of their worth as human beings. I don't see much evidence of that in Westeros. For sure, it is an unequal, male-dominated, and sexist society, where women are expected to fulfill distinct societal roles that give them far less autonomy than their male counterparts. I've never gotten the feeling, however, that the society as a whole views women as subhuman, uses them as scapegoats, or bears any other marks of a truly misogynistic culture. As others have mentioned, Cersei's particular punishment does not seem to be a function of her being a woman, and the reasoning behind it does not seem to indicate it is meant as invective aimed at her sex. Rather, it is deemed a just punishment due to her betrayal of the high station she occupied.

Westeros functions a lot like the US and other Western societies before the social revolution of The Sixties, where there were rigid defined roles for each sex, and nonconformity was strongly frowned upon. Westeros is similar, and as we can see from the example of Samwell Tarly, victims of these strict expectations were not solely limited to the female sex. Pre-Sixties culture was decidedly limiting and unfair to women, but I don't think it can be characterized as misogynistic. Neither should that of Westeros.

[vivatforx]

Though the real point of this thread is political correctness run amok. I guess we would rather live in a society were uncomfortable things are thrown down the memory hole rather than revisiting them for the express purpose of analyzing the way people used to live. Nope, might make people uncomfortable.

By the way, the feeling of discomfort is actually a learning moment! I know that seems counter-intuitive, but most of the best things in life are. Every time you have that feeling is an opportunity to reexamine your views and motivations. That is actually a good thing. You also get to see that people who lived before you had it really, really bad. For most of human history! So, maybe instead of worrying about the author's motivations (a really silly pastime; GRRM keeps managing to surprise us, so we have not figured them out yet), focus on how you feel about it and why. And then maybe have a little bit of gratitude that your roll of the genetic dice happened in a time (for all it's obvious warts) that is much safer than medieval Europe.

[WidoW101MakeR]

Pff say she got off easy so far, vs a punishment a guy would get yes shameful that's what it's ment to do

[MavsWorld]

In all honesty, Cersei created this punishment for herself. She's the one who armed the faith nd she's the one who tried to manipulate them into doing something worse to her daughter in law. Therefore I don't really see why people are feeling sorry for her. Further, a physical beating isn't purely physical, there's a mental side to it as well. She'll be left scars from it that will show up to anyone who sees parts of her body in the future. Further, there's the utter submission side to it, in that there's no way to fight back against it. Just because Cersei thinks she would prefer a different punishment does not neccessarily mean that she would, as she has never had to endure said punishment.

As to it being sexist, unless a male is accused of the same crime and recieves a different punishment then we can't judge whether or not it is sexist. As to whether Robert would be punished, the only reason that Cersei can be punished for it is that she armed the faith and then went to their keep after giving them a bunch of evidence against her. If she hadn't done these things she too would not have been punished for her sleeping around, heck, there are rumors about her incest with her brother and there's not investigation into it. I do think that sexism exists in the books and this is potentially could be a case, but until more such cases arise there is no evidence that a man would be treated any differently.

That said, Eddard threatening to tell Bob about Cersei's incest and adultery suggest that there are sexist rules against it.