Heresy 36

[Tyryan Lannister]

it would sure be a wight Christmas...

O my god love this line putting it in my sig (with citation of course)

[Tyryan Lannister]

Do you recall any reasons why that would be other than the families that Bloodraven, Bran and Jojen are from? There must be something more to it than that. Any First Men family should be able to birth greenseers, unless there had to be intermarriage at one time?

It seems to me at least (and I think Black Crow is on board with this as well) that historically, the Riverlands area is the "ancestral home" of the Those who Sing the Song of Earth (ie the Children of the Forest); as such, it seems that the First Men who initially settled the area immediately after the First Pact* became "close" to the Children, possibly inheriting some traits, with the Crognomen going full-blown Children while the others of the area remained partially more First Manish, eventually gaining Andal traits as well.

*This being the Pact of the Gods Eye, which, as a reminder, is in the Riverlands, so even after the First Pact it seems that the Children did for a time still live in the Riverlands area

But Luwin is a wise man, he wants his death to serve a purpose, if possible... He is not in a state to offer up any explanations. As a wilding Osha might well understand in any event.

I believe that in addition to Luwin asking Osha to finish him off, he also told her to go to Skaagos with Rickon (hence how Wex knows for a fact that that is where they went) and that he might have also explained why**, but since Wex can't speak 9and is presumably illiterate), the Manderlies and Glover have yet to be able to get that part out of him

**My belief on this is that Ned's mother, of whom we only know that HER mother was a Flint (of course, we don't know which kind of Flint) is from Skaagos, so Rickon has family there, and that is why Luwin decided it would be safest for him to go there.

I was aware of that and thanks! I think he sees it as his last act of service to Winterfell.

Agreed

Occam says that Luwin went to get a drink from the pool of water. I think that it is important that he dies there, but I doubt Luwin went to die to bleed into the weirwood on purpose. It does not seem within character for Luwin to believe in the practice.

As a maester in and of itself, I'd agree, but seeing as he was a maester to the North (and the Starks at that) and a rather learned maester AND that, by the end, he had had quite a few conversations with Osha, I have this gut feeling that he eventually did give up on the whole "this is just wive's tales and superstitions" thing and come to realize that these stories have quite a bit of truth to them

Hey, how'd the Badgers do?

Lost, but by less than a touchdown, so much better than I had anticipated. But my trivia team did win the weekly bout, so that's good at least (and good god I spent nine hours at the bar today... if only I could make that into a job :devil: )***

*** Well, that, and studying ASOIAF/Heresy Postings :commie:

[Tyryan Lannister]

I really like this as an introduction to Heresy, just got a few nitpicks to go through :cool4:

Welcome to Heresy 36, the New Year edition.

Welcome indeed

Heresy is an eclectic thread which is all about challenging orthodoxy, as we try to figure out what’s really going on not in the Game of Thrones but the over-arching Game of Ice and Fire. We primarily challenge the easy orthodoxy that the Others are evil incarnate; that the Children of the Forest give Bran the knowledge how to defeat the Others and that he will pass this knowledge on to Jon, who is of course Azor Ahai, and will save Westeros astride one of Dany’s amazing dragons before taking his rightful place alongside her on the Iron Throne as Jon Targaryen first of his name.

Should be First of His Name with the caps :cool4:

Instead we look at who or what the Others really are and why some of them at least are Craster’s sons, noting both GRRM’s reference to them being like the Sidhe made of ice and to the way they behave not as an invading army but like the Wild Hunt of legend.

Conversely its hard to avoid the fact that the Children (who so far have conspicuously said nothing to Bran about the Others, far less hinted how they can be defeated) are not just of the Forest, but of the Darkness as well, that darkness feared and hated by Melisandre and the followers of the Lord of Light. Certainly whatever the real motives of the Children, it can cheerfully be assumed that they are no friends of the Red pyromaniacs.

As for Jon, we have this passage, where he’s reunited with Ghost, just outside the Wall:

Red eyes, Jon realized, but not like Melisandre’s. He had a weirwood’s eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one. And he alone of all the direwolves was white. Six pups they’d found in the late summer snows, him and Robb; five that were grey, and black and brown, for the five Starks, and one white, as white as snow.

Wasn't it Bran who found the five pups (with Jon of course finding Ghost)?

Jon isn’t Azor Ahai. “He belongs to the old gods, this one.” He’s on the other side.

We also look at the Wall itself and of late have come to a certain consensus that it is not a defensive structure at all but marks the magical boundary between the realms of Ice (or Faerie), and Men and given the curious silence in the histories as to when and how it was built, many of us have come to think that it was not built after the Long Night to prevent the return of the Others but is much, much older.

Inevitably then this means looking at the Starks, the Wall and beyond, and drawing not just on the books themselves but on the real world mythologies, chiefly Celtic but Norse as well, which firmly underpin Martin’s version of the Faerie realms, leading us through the Mabinogion, the Tain bo Culaidh and the Norse Eddas amongst others to discover Bran the Blessed, Tam Lin, Cu Chulainn and above all the Morrigan.

As heretics we neither promote nor defend a particular viewpoint, in fact we argue quite a lot, but we do reckon that the Starks’ role in all of this is a lot darker and more ambiguous than once it seemed. They are after all the Kings of Winter.

Well, they once WERE the Kings of Winter, whether or not that can still be said of them is up for debate.

If you’re already actively involved in the Heresy business it needs no further introduction. If you’re new, or simply intimidated by the sheer scale of it all, not to mention the astonishing speed with which it moves, and wonder what we’re talking about and why we’ve come to these peculiar ideas, just ask. We’re friendly and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes.

Happy New Year

Never said I was friendly :devil:

[Tyryan Lannister]

ETA: Gods, page 20 and post 385 - I'm going to have to knock up an OP for Heresy 36 instead of pushing it on to Tyryan for later in the week while I'm away...

I've changed my title to reflect my apparent position here :pimp:

[The Faceless Bard]

As I have kept my eye on the heresy treads since 20 or so, I don't remember text or the thread ever coming to the conclusion on the NK's wife. Black Crow suggests she was more than a wight, but does the text back that up, or is that the heresy conclusion. I know BC draws parallels with some mythology, but if she isn't a wight and not a other, what was she? I only ask because if that got discussed I somehow missed it until it got referenced by BC in Heresy 35.

[The Faceless Bard]

Oh yeah, and secondly, I am heavily in favor of believing the wall falling would secure some sort of balance to Westeros, and not so much the end-all anarchist cookbook everyone expects

[Tyryan Lannister]

As I have kept my eye on the heresy treads since 20 or so, I don't remember text or the thread ever coming to the conclusion on the NK's wife. Black Crow suggests she was more than a wight, but does the text back that up, or is that the heresy conclusion. I know BC draws parallels with some mythology, but if she isn't a wight and not a other, what was she? I only ask because if that got discussed I somehow missed it until it got referenced by BC in Heresy 35.

The main idea for her is that she is a White Walker, possibly the Queen of the White Walkers. This is derived from the White Walkers seemingly being based on the Sidhe from Celtic mythology and the fact that the folklore usually involves a Queen Faerie of some sort, and her actions seem in line with those of a Queen Faerie towards her human consort.

Oh yeah, and secondly, I am heavily in favor of believing the wall falling would secure some sort of balance to Westeros, and not so much the end-all anarchist cookbook everyone expects

This is one of what I call the Core Heretical Beliefs (CHBs), so you are definitely welcome here

[Black Crow]

Wasn't it Bran who found the five pups (with Jon of course finding Ghost)?

Picky, picky picky...

Nope, Jon was remembering it right:

That was when Jon reappeared on the crest of the hill before them. He waved and shouted down at them. "Father, Bran, come quickly, see what Robb has found!"

[Black Crow]

I've changed my title to reflect my apparent position here :pimp:

Har, when I picked Black Crow as my user name I was thinking of the Nights Watch, but of late Crow has acquired a quite different resonance on the heresy channel, so was it foreshadowing...

[nanother]

I agree, but what's interesting is the third eye business. Is it for greenseeing or warging?

Both, I'd think. Of course, BR implies that warging is a prerequisite to greenseeing. It seems to be the 'device' for incoming and outbound communication with...what exactly? In the case of green dreams and greenseers, I guess it's with the Old Gods, but for skinchangers it seems to be just some animals, sometimes apparently sent by the Old Gods, but I wonder how Varamyr selected his.

Possibly, the Old Gods can communicate with you through your third eye if they want to (and it's open) and then you have green dreams. But if you also have the gift of skinchanging, and it's strong enough, it becomes a two-way communication.

It seems to me at least (and I think Black Crow is on board with this as well) that historically, the Riverlands area is the "ancestral home" of the Those who Sing the Song of Earth (ie the Children of the Forest); as such, it seems that the First Men who initially settled the area immediately after the First Pact* became "close" to the Children, possibly inheriting some traits, with the Crognomen going full-blown Children while the others of the area remained partially more First Manish, eventually gaining Andal traits as well.

*This being the Pact of the Gods Eye, which, as a reminder, is in the Riverlands, so even after the First Pact it seems that the Children did for a time still live in the Riverlands area

I think the Children were all over Westeros by the time the FM came. No definite proof, but one of the Children Bran's hanging out with says they have lived in those cave systems for 'thousands of thousand' years. I guess that just means a really-really long time, but definitely indicates longer than the measly ten thousand or so the FM have been around for.

That's not saying their ancestral home wasn't the Rivelands - it' most likely was - but that its location shouldn't make a difference by the time the FM came.

[Toccs]

That's not saying their ancestral home wasn't the Rivelands - it' most likely was - but that its location shouldn't make a difference by the time the FM came.

It's location is still very important when the First Men arrive, it is in the Riverlands that the Children and First Men make the pact and carve up Westeros.

[nanother]

I was speaking in the context of 'transferring' traits knowledge and abilities to the First Men - they're all over the place, so they can intermingle with First Men all over the place, in whatever way they want. There's no reason why greenseeing should be limited to Riverlands. Especially seeing that skinchanging (which seems to be a prerequsite) is not that uncommon in the North.

ETA: also, another plausible reason for the Pact happening in the Riverlands is that most of the fighting also happened there...

[Melifeather]

It seems to me at least (and I think Black Crow is on board with this as well) that historically, the Riverlands area is the "ancestral home" of the Those who Sing the Song of Earth (ie the Children of the Forest); as such, it seems that the First Men who initially settled the area immediately after the First Pact* became "close" to the Children, possibly inheriting some traits, with the Crognomen going full-blown Children while the others of the area remained partially more First Manish, eventually gaining Andal traits as well.

I think this is problematic since Bran was chosen over Jojen who was also a greenseer. The only one in the book that says Jojen is not a greenseer is Maester Luwin. Having greensight is a greenseer. So, even though both Bran and Jojen could be considered "Riverland", the fact remains that Bloodraven chose Bran and not Jojen. The only reason I can think of why he did that was because he's a Stark, but this is problematic too since Bloodraven isn't a Stark, but if simply having a greenseer in place was enough, why couldn't Bloodraven accomplish whatever it is that needs doing?

Sidenote: I may not have too many opportunities to post as often as I have, starting today. I gave up working from home and accepted a promotion that will require going in to an office, and they've got internet security that prevents any type of "social" network, so I'll only get to peek at the threads when I get home from work. I'm afraid I won't be able to keep up, since there's usually at least 30 posts in 8 hours to read as it is. :frown5:

[nanother]

The only one in the book that says Jojen is not a greenseer is Maester Luwin. Having greensight is a greenseer.

No and no. Jojen himself says he's not a greenseer, and it's really confusing to try to figure out what greensight is supposed to be, but either it doesn't mean greenseer or whatever Jojen's ability is, the term greensight is mistakenly used to describe it.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Sidenote: I may not have too many opportunities to post as often as I have, starting today. I gave up working from home and accepted a promotion that will require going in to an office, and they've got internet security that prevents any type of "social" network, so I'll only get to peek at the threads when I get home from work. I'm afraid I won't be able to keep up, since there's usually at least 30 posts in 8 hours to read as it is. :frown5:

This is when cellphones with internet get really handy :D

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

And also congratulations on the promotion :)

[Little Wing]

And a new pic for you I see

Ah, yes, it's from Bell, Book and Candle ^_^

I agree, but what's interesting is the third eye business. Is it for greenseeing or warging?

I was also about to say both, but I wonder.... Don't have anything to back it up, but I think greenseeing and warging are separate affairs, the third eye being reserved for greensight. If you're a warg to boot, then good for you, but what the third eye awakens is, I think, independent of warging :dunno: But, also, a warg is probably more susceptible to third eye activation than a non-warg.

[nanother]

From Bran's ACoK chapters in the crypts:

He sat on his haunches, raised his head, and howled. I will not go, he cried. I am wolf, I will not go. Yet even so the darkness thickened, until it covered his eyes and filled his nose and stopped his ears, so he could not see or smell or hear or run, and the grey cliffs were gone and the dead horse was gone and his brother was gone and all was black and still and black and cold and black and dead and black . . .

“Bran,” a voice was whispering softly. “Bran, come back. Come back now, Bran. Bran . . .”

He closed his third eye and opened the other two, the old two, the blind two.

...

Here in the chill damp darkness of the tomb his third eye had finally opened. He could reach Summer whenever he wanted, and once he had even touched Ghost and talked to Jon. Though maybe he had only dreamed that. He could not understand why Joien was always trying to pull him back now. Bran used the strength of his arms to squirm to a sitting position. “I have to tell Osha what I saw. Is she here? Where did she go?”

[nanother]

Hmmm, from ADwD, Jon's description of Mel

Her eyes were two red stars, shining in the dark. At her throat, her ruby gleamed, a third eye glowing brighter than the others. Jon had seen Ghost’s eyes

blazing red the same way, when they caught the light just right. “Ghost,” he called. “To me.”

The direwolf looked at him as if he were a stranger.

Not sure if it's just a coincidence or there's more to it...

[Little Wing]

Oh, I wasn't saying that the third eye and warging are totally unrelated, just that it may pertain more to greensight ability. It sure does enhance warging,but what if Bran wasn't a warg? I'm thinking the third eye awakening is independent of warging abilities but if warging is there, it enhances it. Something like that, I'm not explaining myself well <_< Anyway, I think we agree, I just think of third eye ability as a specialized thing that can influence warging/enhance it, if it's there to begin with...

ETA: Nice catch with Mel... her eyes glow like the ruby (which gives third eye abilities?), similar to wight eyes glowing blue. I guess it goes well with those theories she may be a sentient red lot "wight" like Coldhands...