Heresy 36

[Tyryan Lannister]

Oh, I wasn't saying that the third eye and warging are totally unrelated, just that it may pertain more to greensight ability. It sure does enhance warging,but what if Bran wasn't a warg? I'm thinking the third eye awakening is independent of warging abilities but if warging is there, it enhances it. Something like that, I'm not explaining myself well <_< Anyway, I think we agree, I just think of third eye ability as a specialized thing that can influence warging/enhance it, if it's there to begin with...

ETA: Nice catch with Mel... her eyes glow like the ruby (which gives third eye abilities?), similar to wight eyes glowing blue. I guess it goes well with those theories she may be a sentient red lot "wight" like Coldhands...

Just checking: are you making a distinction between wargs and skinchangers here? cause BR says that all greenseers are skinchangers, but since a warg is a special type of skinchanger, it does not necessitate being a warg per se, in which case your theory about warging enhancing it could be correct, since it's the skinchanging part, not the warging specialty, that enables the greenseeing

[Little Wing]

I was suggesting that having your third eye "open" enhances warging ability, if it is there to begin with, but is "designed" (the 3rd eye) more to bring out greensight abilities. But, as I said, it's just my subjective take on it, probably way off :laugh:

[nanother]

But, warging is using the third eye. Not just enhanced, you simply can't do it without. Also, greenseer training seems to proceed through more and more advanced stages of skinchanging.

This is the passage I hoped to find when searching for 'third eye'

“Warg,” said Jojen Reed.

Bran looked at him, his eyes wide. “What?”

“Warg. Shapechanger. Beastling. That is what they will call you, if they should ever hear of your wolf dreams.”

The names made him afraid again. “Who will call me?”

“Your own folk. In fear. Some will hate you if they know what you are. Some will even try to kill you.”

Old Nan told scary stories of beastlings and shapechangers sometimes. In the stories they were

always evil. “I’m not like that,” Bran said. “I’m not. It’s only dreams.”

“The wolf dreams are no true dreams. You have your eye closed tight whenever you’re awake,

but as you drift off it flutters open and your soul seeks out its other half. The power is strong in you.”

“I don’t want it. I want to be a knight.”

“A knight is what you want. A warg is what you are. You can’t change that, Bran, you can’t

deny it or push it away. You are the winged wolf, but you will never fly.” Jojen got up and walked to the

window. “Unless you open your eye.” He put two fingers together and poked Bran in the forehead, hard.

When he raised his hand to the spot, Bran felt only the smooth unbroken skin. There was no eye,

not even a closed one. “How can I open it if it’s not there?”

“You will never find the eye with your fingers, Bran. You must search with your heart.” Jojen

studied Bran’s face with those strange green eyes. “Or are you afraid?”

So apparently, skinchanging is somehow extending your soul through the third eye?

So my guess is that once your third eye is open (let's call that greensight), it's a two-way gate to...the Old Gods? spiritual realm? dunno...so you can be reached through it, via green dreams, but in order to actively use it, you have to be able to reach out, which means you can skinchange. And greenseeing would be the ultimate method to reach out, possibly without the need for an actual creature to skinchange into?

The terminology is really stupid, though. Greenshight != the ability to be a greenseer.

[Little Wing]

Okay, this is the bit of nuance I'm thinking:

“A knight is what you want. A warg is what you are. You can’t change that, Bran, you can’t

deny it or push it away. You are the winged wolf, but you will never fly ... Unless you open your eye.”

He's the wolf (warg), but having his third eye opened makes him the winged wolf. If he doesn't open his third eye, he's only a warg, but if he opens it, then he "can fly".

Edited to add missing part of quote.

[nanother]

But, when he wargs into Summer, that's because his third eye opens in his sleep. So, he's a warg, and capable of even more (winged wolf) but he can't make full use of either, unless he learns to open his eye at will (so far it only happens accidentally, in his sleep)

[Little Wing]

But, when he wargs into Summer, that's because his third eye opens in his sleep.

Yep, it's involuntarily. But, it seems I'm complicating things here, and as I'm a fan of simple, I'll drop it, I'm giving myself a headache here :lol:

[Stark@heart]

The main idea for her is that she is a White Walker, possibly the Queen of the White Walkers. This is derived from the White Walkers seemingly being based on the Sidhe from Celtic mythology and the fact that the folklore usually involves a Queen Faerie of some sort, and her actions seem in line with those of a Queen Faerie towards her human consort.

This is one of what I call the Core Heretical Beliefs (CHBs), so you are definitely welcome here

Here's my thoughts on The Woman at the Wall - Past & Present

She was spotted from the Wall, had pale skin and the blue eyes of the wrights / Others... but did she??

Suppose in the Past we had a similar situation to the one now.

A fire priestess seeks out a King to act a R'hloors chosen one and hold back the Long Night. She finds him at the Wall. As Lord Commander is has the authority she needs to seek her enemy(ies), the enemies of R'hloor beyond the Wall. She seduces him in a similar way to that of Mel & Stannis. "You are the rightful King" "Only you can save the world" etc and he buys into it just like Stannis.

After all is said and done, the Night King has fallen & even his name is no longer spoken. His story only told in whispers and in those whispers the details and the reasonings get lost.

Did the White Woman have the blue eyes of the Others, which are well known to the North? Or did she have Red eyes and the details changed to match the story better? Could be.

Could also be that whatever that White Woman and the Night King did worked. The Long Night was kept at bay, for a time.

Just saying..... Details change from one telling to the next and are made more familiar and more interesting with each telling, that's how rumor works right, oral storytelling is the same - especially with GRRM. There is a cycle to everything we've seen. The Present mirrors the Past mirrors the Future.

So Mel, might not be the first "Red" woman at the Wall.

[nanother]

Yep, it's involuntarily. But, it seems I'm complicating things here, and as I'm a fan of simple, I'll drop it, I'm giving myself a headache here :lol:

Simple = good. It's not like this story is not complicated enough anyway :blink:

Anyhow, yet another quote from Jojen:

Jojen gave a solemn nod. “I dreamed of a winged wolf bound to earth by chains of stone, and

came to Winterfell to free him. The chains are off you now, yet still you do not fly.”

“Then you teach me.” Bran still feared the three-eyed crow who haunted his dreams sometimes,

pecking endlessly at the skin between his eyes and telling him to fly. “You’re a greenseer.”

“No,” said Jojen, “only a boy who dreams. The greenseers were more than that. They were wargs

as well, as you are, and the greatest of them could wear the skins of any beast that flies or swims or

crawls, and could look through the eyes of the weirwoods as well, and see the truth that lies beneath the

world.

So opening the third eye was breaking the chains - now he's a proper warg (he can do it at will), but he has yet to learn to fly.

Also, nice explanation about greenseers - I totally forgot about it...it's in ASoS, by the way, the first Bran chapter

[Mace Cooterian]

Here's my thoughts on The Woman at the Wall - Past & Present

She was spotted from the Wall, had pale skin and the blue eyes of the wrights / Others... but did she??

Suppose in the Past we had a similar situation to the one now.

A fire priestess seeks out a King to act a R'hloors chosen one and hold back the Long Night. She finds him at the Wall. As Lord Commander is has the authority she needs to seek her enemy(ies), the enemies of R'hloor beyond the Wall. She seduces him in a similar way to that of Mel & Stannis. "You are the rightful King" "Only you can save the world" etc and he buys into it just like Stannis.

After all is said and done, the Night King has fallen & even his name is no longer spoken. His story only told in whispers and in those whispers the details and the reasonings get lost.

Did the White Woman have the blue eyes of the Others, which are well known to the North? Or did she have Red eyes and the details changed to match the story better? Could be.

Could also be that whatever that White Woman and the Night King did worked. The Long Night was kept at bay, for a time.

Just saying..... Details change from one telling to the next and are made more familiar and more interesting with each telling, that's how rumor works right, oral storytelling is the same - especially with GRRM. There is a cycle to everything we've seen. The Present mirrors the Past mirrors the Future.

So Mel, might not be the first "Red" woman at the Wall.

This got me thinking about something that has always bothered me about the Night King and his mating with the White Woman. It would seem reasonable to me that her appearance would have to be of a human form in order to attract the attention of the Night King (or LC at that point). Not that I knew LC, but my guess is stealthy armor and milky white vapors would have not been enough to peak his interest. Was she glamoring herself, like Mel did for Mance? and maybe, what she is doing for herself to appear young and radiant?

I would be inclined to believe that she did indeed have blue eyes but I think the color here seems a little too coincidental to Mel's Red Ruby.

[nanother]

...

Suppose in the Past we had a similar situation to the one now.

A fire priestess seeks out a King to act a R'hloors chosen one and hold back the Long Night. She finds him at the Wall. As Lord Commander is has the authority she needs to seek her enemy(ies), the enemies of R'hloor beyond the Wall. She seduces him in a similar way to that of Mel & Stannis. "You are the rightful King" "Only you can save the world" etc and he buys into it just like Stannis.

...

Crackpot: Nissa Nissa was Azor Ahai's Melisandre. There was a mirror story to the Night's King's in Essos, in which Nissa Nissa seduced AA in a similar fashion. She was working for a perceived 'greater good', rather than just taking advantage of him, so she ended up sacrificing herself to give AA the ultimate power. To fulfill the prophecy, Stannis will stab Mel with 'Lightbringer' (I'm guessing he gets fed up with her manipulations and misinterpreted visions, rather than it being an actual sacrifice), which then will be imbued with Mel's fire and Stannis will indeed be AA reborn.

(at the Wall, the Night's King would still have the Mother Other or Fairy Queen or whoever it was)

:leaving:

[Little Wing]

Thanks for the quotes, nanother :cheers: It would be great to have a heretic Bran re-read... or Bran and Jon...

[nanother]

I'm in for a heretic re-read!

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Reading? What is this a job?

Seriously, though. Back at work for the first time in a week and i have 7,000 emails. What the hell.

[Little Wing]

Reading? What is this a job?

Well, no one's pulling your sleeve... or whatever it is that giants wear :P

It was just a suggestion... Anyway, nanother, if you want you can join in on a general AGoT re-read here (I've linked the latest page), but if more people are interested in a Bran re-read, then we'll see ;)

[Tyryan Lannister]

Well, no one's pulling your sleeve... or whatever it is that giants wear :P

It was just a suggestion... Anyway, nanother, if you want you can join in on a general AGoT re-read here (I've linked the latest page), but if more people are interested in a Bran re-read, then we'll see ;)

I think a true Heretic reread would need to include Bran, Jon, Ned, Jaime, Sam, and post-Blackwater Davos, plus some if not all of Tryion and Catelyn for the history (real or rumored) that they consistently chime in on, in addition to the North Prologues

[Tyryan Lannister]

Reading? What is this a job?

If only we could get paid for this

[Little Wing]

I think a true Heretic reread would need to include Bran, Jon, Ned, Jaime, Sam, and post-Blackwater Davos, plus some if not all of Tryion and Catelyn for the history (real or rumored) that they consistently chime in on, in addition to the North Prologues

I realize this, but if I made a proposal like that, then no one would wanna read :crying: or would they?

[alienarea]

Do you recall any reasons why that would be other than the families that Bloodraven, Bran and Jojen are from? There must be something more to it than that. Any First Men family should be able to birth greenseers, unless there had to be intermarriage at one time?

Unless it is written otherwise by GRRM I'll stick with the ultimate heresy: Jon Snow's father is Eddard Stark. :-)

[nanother]

I realize this, but if I made a proposal like that, then no one would wanna read :crying: or would they?

I would. It's still better* than a full re-read.

I looked into the AGoT re-read thread when Evita mentioned it (was that 2 threads ago?) - there's some overlap with Heresy, but it has a different focus, so a specifically heretic re-read would be great, if there's enough interest.

*=more manageable time-wise

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Well, no one's pulling your sleeve... or whatever it is that giants wear :P

Chest hair. Don't pull!

BTW, I thought your new avatar was a woman wearing a crazy mask until this morning when I got to work and saw it was a cat. My screen at home is much further away LOL