Ser Leftwich Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 I'm agreeing with you, which is why I pointed out that he'd chosen to go and die there long before the kids turned up.Occam says that Luwin went to get a drink from the pool of water. I think that it is important that he dies there, but I doubt Luwin went to die to bleed into the weirwood on purpose. It does not seem within character for Luwin to believe in the practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clariana Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 Occam says that Luwin went to get a drink from the pool of water. I think that it is important that he dies there, but I doubt Luwin went to die to bleed into the weirwood on purpose. It does not seem within character for Luwin to believe in the practice.Yay, but when confronted with death things may change a little. Luwin may not "believe" as that would be irrational and he's a maester... However, he is a maester who forged a magic link for his chain and there are not many of them. He might just be hedging his bets a little.On the other hand, who knows? The place might just have an emotional resonance for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 Yay, but when confronted with death things may change a little. Luwin may not "believe" as that would be irrational and he's a maester... However, he is a maester who forged a magic link for his chain and there are not many of them. He might just be hedging his bets a little.On the other hand, who knows? The place might just have an emotional resonance for him.A deathbed conversion or a hedging his spiritual bets are definitely a possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace Cooterian Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 Let's say you are Ser Waymar Royce and you had the "honor" of being killed by an Other - you turn wight almost instantly. On the other (heh) hand, if you have the misfortune of being Thistle, the spearwife, and you die possibly of shock from being warged and self inflicted wounds, but most likely freeze from the eerie, unnatural cold that brings the Others, or they bring, (Varamyr says everything turned to ice as he watches on from One-Eye just before he sees the new and "improved" Thistle) you also rise almost instantly as a new member of the wight force. But if you die of, let's say a wildling or your own hatchet to the neck, like Othor, and no one burns you for a day or two (or longer?) - how do you turn wight? I think it's highly impractical for Others to give the "icy kiss" to each dead in order to make them wights. If the icy mists are them, just not corporeal, then that's an elegant solution. And it still means that the dead turn wight beyond the Wall, if the cold winds rise ie Others are about. If the cold mists hit them - they rise as wights.Based on how Heresy 35 ended and this one picked up I was compelled to go back and re-read the Varymyr prologue. There is a lot stuff packed into that chapter. My intent was to see if there was evidence of Others being present to turn Thistle into a wight. Picking up after Varamyr had left Thistle's body and he was "rising, melting, his spirit borne on some cold wind".....to eventually finding his wolf pack and then leading them back to where Thistle's body lay:The empty village was no longer empty. Blue-eyed shadows walked amongst the mounds of snow. Some wore brown and some wore black and some were naked, their flesh gone white as snow. A wind was sighing through the hills, heavy with their scents: dead flesh, dry blood, skins that stank of mold and rot and urine......Sounds to me like a combination of Wights and Others. The ones wearing brown, are wildings turned wight; the ones black are NW rangers turned wight. And those with flesh gone white as snow are Others.Another comment on how quickly Thistle might have been turned into a wight. It was hard for me to put a time element on how long Varamyr's existance had floated through the trees to find his wolf pack and lead them back to the village. Pure speculation but this has to be several minutes. Upon returning, I was drawn to where Thistle finally see's Varamyr....And in the pits where her eyes had been, a pale blue light was flickerings.Sounds like to me she is in "power/boot up" stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Wing Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 Well, the quote that got me thinking that she was both frozen to death and risen as a wight by the cold mists that come when Others are near was this: "Below, the world had turned to ice. Fingers of frost crept slowly up the weirwood, reaching out for each other." I think Varamyr keeps saying throughout his chapter how cold it is, but just before he slips into One-Eye, the extreme cold seems to come, and the quote is what he sees as One-Eye, after being.... well, everything for a little while. But I didn't get any indication that Varamyr actually saw an Other pass by or something.... if the cold mist was there they probably weren't far behind, but I don't think Varamyr saw them.... he'd have more to say if he saw one of them, I think.ETA: Also, I didn't know there was a "power/boot up" stage :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace Cooterian Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 Well, the quote that got me thinking that she was both frozen to death and risen as a wight by the cold mists that come when Others are near was this: "Below, the world had turned to ice. Fingers of frost crept slowly up the weirwood, reaching out for each other." I think Varamyr keeps saying throughout his chapter how cold it is, but just before he slips into One-Eye, the extreme cold seems to come, and the quote is what he sees as One-Eye, after being.... well, everything for a little while. But I didn't get any indication that Varamyr actually saw an Other pass by or something.... if the cold mist was there they probably weren't far behind, but I don't think Varamyr saw them.... he'd have more to say if he saw one of them, I think.ETA: Also, I didn't know there was a "power/boot up" stage :laugh:I don't know about the power up but the flickering blue light suggests something.As for the cold, Varamyr does refer to it several times in the chapter. At one point while he is dreaming about bump and lump his paws are actually frozen to the ground; and in order the move he leaves some skin behind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nanother Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 And if Jojen was already a greenseer, why did Bran have to be the one to go to Bloodraven? It all just leads back to the old Pact and perhaps the children "sacrificed" as wards have to be Starks.Jojen is no greenseer, he just has green dreams, which is sometimes referred to as 'greensight'. Why, I don't know, but Jojen makes it very clear that all he has is the green dreams and he's no fit to teach Bran.edit: Wouldn't it make more sense then if someone like Ramsay was one of Craster's sons? Roose thought Ramsay was his son due to his icy blue eye color, but maybe its an indicator that he's one of Craster's sons and is doing the bidding of the White Walkers in the realm of men? It would explain his love of wild hunts.There was a thread about that, I'll see if I can find it. Probably featured in older Heresy threads as well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 That Jamie owes the Starks/Winter a debt consisting of protecting its scions to compensate for failing to protect Rhaegar's family? He is already doing this, of course, by sending Brienne out with oathkeeper (nice name...) even though rationally he cannot quite explain to himself why. We will see what comes of his encounter with Stoneheart.I've suggested in another thread he may even been the hooded man Theon sees in Winterfell, should Roose be wary?I don't think Jaime could be the hooded man because when we last read about him he was being led by Brienne back to Lady Stoneheart. I suspect the hooded man was one of Mors Umber's men or perhaps Theon himself. Then there is that family who's sigil is a hooded man: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Banefort Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nanother Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 Sounds to me like a combination of Wights and Others. The ones wearing brown, are wildings turned wight; the ones black are NW rangers turned wight. And those with flesh gone white as snow are Others.Others are not naked and not white, though - they wear fancy stealth armor. Although, in the snow that might be white :dunno: Even so, I think those might just be naked wights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nanother Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 There was a thread about that, I'll see if I can find it. Probably featured in older Heresy threads as well...I think it was somewhere in this thread: Possibly in Heresies around 20? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 I think it was somewhere in this thread: http://asoiaf.wester...l-lady-dustin/. Possibly in Heresies around 20?Possibly this thread: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Wing Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 I think it was Ludd back in Heresy 26 who proposed the Boltons were related to the Others (maybe through the Night's King, don' quite remember). If someone want's to look for it, I'm too lazy :dunno: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nanother Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 Possibly this thread: http://asoiaf.wester...the-changeling/Yeah that seems familiar, thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elaena Targaryen Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 Occam says that Luwin went to get a drink from the pool of water. I think that it is important that he dies there, but I doubt Luwin went to die to bleed into the weirwood on purpose. It does not seem within character for Luwin to believe in the practice.Or he went to the godswood to escape the fire. ;) I've tried to have fun a long time ago with this and everybody rained on my parade reminding me that the godswood was not effected by the fire. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elaena Targaryen Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 I think it was somewhere in this thread: http://asoiaf.wester...l-lady-dustin/. Possibly in Heresies around 20?Yes your right nanother it all started in your link and was discussed in Heresy around that time as well. It may have been touched on very little in Heresy before that but Bran Vras's thread really got the fire going then he made a seperate thread to discuss that more specifically which Ser Leftwich linked below. :)Possibly this thread: http://asoiaf.wester...the-changeling/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 2, 2013 Author Share Posted January 2, 2013 Or he went to the godswood to escape the fire. ;) I've tried to have fun a long time ago with this and everybody rained on my parade reminding me that the godswood was not effected by the fire. :PDespite being a heretic I'm also one for keeping things simple, but the point here is the size of the godswood. He didn't just take refuge in the acres of trees or seek a drink from the various pools, he dragged himself however painfully all the way to the heart-tree to die. Yes he had studied magic at the citadel, but I doubt that's what impelled him as he was dying to go to the heart tree, more likely perhaps that he studied magic because he was of a First Men family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 2, 2013 Author Share Posted January 2, 2013 Others are not naked and not white, though - they wear fancy stealth armor. Although, in the snow that might be white :dunno: Even so, I think those might just be naked wights.I agree, while the Others are bone white they're not naked - or at least not the ones we've seen - and again I'm inclined to go with the simple explanation that they're just naked corpses. As I suggested at the top of this page once you get enough of these chilled down wights (clothed or otherwise) wandering around covered in magic pixie dust its probably like a disease and they themselves inadvertently raise more as they go - hence Thistle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 2, 2013 Author Share Posted January 2, 2013 Jojen is no greenseer, he just has green dreams, which is sometimes referred to as 'greensight'. Why, I don't know, but Jojen makes it very clear that all he has is the green dreams and he's no fit to teach Bran.I agree, but what's interesting is the third eye business. Is it for greenseeing or warging? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyryan Lannister Posted January 2, 2013 Share Posted January 2, 2013 A new year and a new Heresy thread - very appropriate :cheers:And a new pic for you I see Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 2, 2013 Author Share Posted January 2, 2013 Hey, how'd the Badgers do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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