R+L=J v 37

[ckal]

It's all but confirmed in the pile of thematic and circumstantial evidence in the story and the complete lack of a logical alternative that fits the parameters of time, motives, locations, etc. that we're given. My point was, even if it is true, do you honestly expect Parris to be like, "Oh yeah, Jon is their son, good for figuring it out"? Hell no. Why the hell do you think this is something that'd be confirmed or even encouraged in a bloody fan Q&A — arguably the single biggest mystery of the entire series? Come on.

And there's already been something similar — someone asked if Littlefinger was telling the truth to Sansa about working with the Tyrells to kill Joffrey. GRRM said something like, "Would Littlefinger lie?" Everyone flipped shit and went all, "Omgz Littlefinger would totally lie, that must mean someone else killed Joffrey!" Then lo and behold the World of Ice and Fire app is released and confirmed what the evidence suggested all along: Littlefinger and the Tyrells worked to have Joffrey assassinated.

So in terms of the question, "Would George do something that basic?", the answer is, "Uh, yeah." Just like Littlefinger would lie, but didn't about Joffrey's death.

I "expect" GRRM to not be a hack and/or troll.

This also completely ignores the paraphrasing, which, as paraphrasing usually does, probably leaves out some other detail or nuance that would help to flesh out Parris' answer.

Hahaha, relaaaaaxxxx. It's like I insulted you or something.

LF killing Joffrey is an entirely different situation. Many readers suspected RLJ sinnce AGOT. Many readers did not suspect LF was behind Joffrey's assassination until it was revealed.

In regards to GRRM's style, Jon being RLJ seems entirely way too obvious. It just doesn't seem his style, and I think many readers/users are reading far way too into this. It is going to be one of the little joys when TWOW comes out and it is confirmed Jon is not RLJ.

Of course Parris actually doesn't confirm or doesn't explicitly dis confirm the theory, because that would be spoiling =P

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

In regards to GRRM's style, Jon being RLJ seems entirely way too obvious. It just doesn't seem his style, and I think many readers/users are reading far way too into this. It is going to be one of the little joys when TWOW comes out and it is confirmed Jon is not RLJ.

I feel like I've said this about 80 times, but it isn't that obvious. It's obvious in hindsight to hardcore fans who look at aggregated clues and talk it over amongst themselves over a period of years or months. What's "obvious" or picked up by people like us isn't what the average casual reader finds obvious. We are not representative of the vast majority of people who read these books.

Also, "reading far way too into this" seems to directly contradict your assertion that this is to obvious. If it's that obvious, there can't be much to read into, surely? Normally if I say someone's reading too much into something, it pertains to drawing conclusions out of nowhere and finding patterns where none exist. Or, you know, the exact opposite of obviousness.

You're going to be bloody disappointed, I fear. You say yourself that she wouldn't confirm or deny it, yet are using her reply to shore up your assertion that Jon isn't Rhaegar and Lyanna's son. So which is it?

Also, I have to ask: Whose son is Jon?

[J. Stargaryen]

I feel like I've said this about 80 times, but it isn't that obvious. It's obvious in hindsight to hardcore fans who look at aggregated clues and talk it over amongst themselves over a period of years or months. What's "obvious" or picked up by people like us isn't what the average casual reader finds obvious. We are not representative of the vast majority of people who read these books.

You're going to be bloody disappointed, I fear. You say yourself that she wouldn't confirm or deny it, yet are using her reply to shore up your assertion that Jon isn't Rhaegar and Lyanna's son. So which is it?

Also, I have to ask: Whose son is Jon?

I don't think saying it 800 times would be enough, because it's just that 'obvious' to some people. You know, the same way the solutions to chess problems are 'obvious', once you've seen the answer in the back of the book.

[FittleLinger]

It would be really interesting to me, honestly, of those people claiming it's obvious, who are the ones that caught it from the first read? I'm not saying it's not possible, I'm asking, didn't they have an "Ah-ha" moment, or did they think, "Meh, obvious...". And that's from first time readers catching it.

[J. Stargaryen]

One thing you have to give the 'it's obvious' people is that they're not liars. It is obvious. Completely. Totally. Utterly. Once you see the evidence laid out it is abso-freaking-lutely obvious that Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents. So yeah, they sort of do have a point.

[FittleLinger]

Well, I've recently seen people who are saying that the Alchemist is not Jaqen, because Jaqen was "a plot device" and he did his job getting Arya her way, so it couldn't be him. I'm not blaming or calling those people names, but should I have a trial of some sort, I would not want them for my jury.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

It would be really interesting to me, honestly, of those people claiming it's obvious, who are the ones that caught it from the first read? I'm not saying it's not possible, I'm asking, didn't they have an "Ah-ha" moment, or did they think, "Meh, obvious...". And that's from first time readers catching it.

Exactly. I would love to know how many people bitching about the obviousness caught it easily on their own, on the first read-through, without the benefit of using the Internet. I do know a couple of people who got it on their own, for what it's worth, but their reactions were more like, "Oh I bet this is where this is going," not, "Everything points to Jon being Ned's nephew but it's soooo obvious that it can't be true."

[FittleLinger]

Exactly. I would love to know how many people bitching about the obviousness caught it easily on their own, on the first read-through, without the benefit of using the Internet. I do know a couple of people who got it on their own, for what it's worth, but their reactions were more like, "Oh I bet this is where this is going," not, "Everything points to Jon being Ned's nephew but it's soooo obvious that it can't be true."

The biggest fantasy nerds around me (ok, 2-3 people, not enough to make a statistics but still) who hadn't read forums and had read the books once (like its normal hah). I ask them, "Ok, who are Jon's parents?" Cocky looks, "Ned and Ashara". They never figured out there was something to figure out. I couldn't resist but tell them, "Rhaegar and Lyanna?" My phone didn't stop ringing like three days.

So much for the obviousness in my book. And when I saw obviously intelligent people here, with whom we can present ridicolous theories, psychoanalize fictional characters and so forth, who hadn't caught it either, well, so much for the obviousness NO 2.

[TheRealJSnow]

I feel like Apple Martini just killed ckal hopes and dreams

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The biggest fantasy nerds around me (ok, 2-3 people, not enough to make a statistics but still) who hadn't read forums and had read the books once (like its normal hah). I aks them, "Ok, who are Jon's parents?" Cocky looks, "Ned and Ashara". They never figured out there was something to figure out. I couldn't resist but tell them, "Rhaegar and Lyanna?" My phone didn't stop ringing like three days.

So much for the obviousness in my book. And when I saw obviously intelligent people here, with whom we can present ridicolous theories, psychoanalize fictional characters and so forth, who hadn't caught it either, well, so much for the obviousness NO 2.

I think this is a huge point. In order to solve a mystery, you need to know that there's a mystery in need of solving. If you have no reason to disbelieve Ned, the only mystery is who Jon's mother is. But since that relies on an inaccurate solution — that Ned is one half of the parentage — it can only lead to inaccurate guesses, like Ashara. But again, if you don't know that the Ned factor is inaccurate — and why would you? — you have no reason to dig deeper.

[Arya Targaryen]

It would be really interesting to me, honestly, of those people claiming it's obvious, who are the ones that caught it from the first read? I'm not saying it's not possible, I'm asking, didn't they have an "Ah-ha" moment, or did they think, "Meh, obvious...". And that's from first time readers catching it.

I saw the show first, (first season), then I talked to a friend who had read the books and the first thing I asked was "is it possible that R+L=J?" He said, yes, that's the common idea. So I read the books afterwards, and even then I didn't pick up all the clues in it, like the Kingsguard guarding Jon and stuff. All those things I read on these forums. So I wouldn't call it that obvious, and I really can't tell at what point did it exactly occur to me it is possible. I think it was after I finished the whole season. From the show I couldn't tell if the timeline fits though, that's why I asked that friend.

[g.o.d]

when I first read AGOT I didn't think there could be such a mystery. I simply though Jon's mother was Ashara and to be honest I didn't care about it. But then read about Jon on the internet and among it there was R+L=J. Aftere that I re-read certain chapters and it made sense to me. But without internet I would'n know it.

it's not as obvious as many people think

[J. Stargaryen]

I saw the show first, (first season), then I talked to a friend who had read the books and the first thing I asked was "is it possible that R+L=J?" He said, yes, that's the common idea. So I read the books afterwards, and even then I didn't pick up all the clues in it, like the Kingsguard guarding Jon and stuff. All those things I read on these forums. So I wouldn't call it that obvious, and I really can't tell at what point did it exactly occur to me it is possible. I think it was after I finished the whole season. From the show I couldn't tell if the timeline fits though, that's why I asked that friend.

I'm impressed that you were able to hypothesize R+L=J from just the first season of the tv show. I wasn't able to make that connection. I realized that Jon's mother was a mystery of some importance, but I think that's about as far as I got with that line of thinking. I also caught Ned's discomfort in certain scenes, e.g., the KR with Robert, the crossroads saying goodbye to Jon. But again, I'm not sure it ever occurred to me that Jon's father was also a part of this mystery. It certainly never crossed my mind that Jon was R&L's.

What did you think the strongest clues for R+L=J in season one were? It seems like a lot of the best ones from the book are missing.

[Starks Among Us]

1) I have read the books (1-4) once, I'm currently on my first re-read and am in CoK. I must say, I from the start, that R=L=J but I didn't have the evidence, or even the basis to confirm or deny and my thoughts of the possiblity actually made me ask more questions then give me answers. My co-worker recomended the series to me (actually let me borrow GoT when I first read it) and when giving it back to him I asked him his opinion of R+L=J and he just scoffed and said no. He has read 1-5 and is currently doing a re-read and he still does not think that the theory is true or exists, and gets quite annoyed at my being adament.

2) Nobody has mentioned Tyrion in any of these threads, Jon and Tyrion know each other, and Tyrion is pretty clever. Tyrion now knows Dany and once again is showing his cleverness. I think that somehow Tyrion will put the puzzle together about Jon's paternity and reveal the mystery. Tyrion being honorable in his way and having sentiment for those who have been ridden rough shod over most of their lives will be willing to reveal to Jon what he knows (I have no idea how this comes to pass, just my thoughts, and I have no substantiating evidence). We all know that if Tyrion is anything, it's honest.

*edit- I would also like to add people are going to say "well tyrion is a dwarf, no one would believe him more than a crannogman" ...to this I say, Tyrion will have the power/might of Ser Barristan, possibly Dany, possibly Dorn etc behind him (he has a habbit of making friends at the right place and at the right time with the right influences) and Selmy may even have/know more info than he is letting on...then too, if Lemore really is Ashara the fact that she and Tyrion and Jon, Barristan etc could all be sitting on the same secret...to me that's a pretty powerful combo (again, I have no supporting evidence for this and it's all up to conjecture) and if Varys is really supporting Aegon/Blackfrye's etc...he and Tyrion may soon be enemies if my theory ended up having any ouce of truth.

3) As far as Dany's vision in HotU when she entered the throne room (in the series) I thought that what she was seeing was KL destroyed because winter had come so far south (ie the others) and she was witnessing the destruction that winter would bring with it.

4) Someone mentioned a Jon and Meera twins theory? Where did this come from? Curious....

5) I think Jon was born waaaaayyyyyyyy before Ned showed up at ToJ, I think Rhaeger and Lyanna were at ToJ for a while and Rhaeghar named him Jon after Jon C but that when Ned arrived it was easy enought to pass him off as Jon for Jon A. The ToJ is still standing on the map in ADWD so I question whether or not Ned truly "tore" it down. Where the heck was the Maester who took care of Lyanna? If indeed she was giving birth to royalty one would think that one of the best maesters in Westeros would have been present.

6) When Theon has a vision in CoK he describes a vision (as Lyanna) covered in "gore" to me this means more than just mere childbirth, I mean he didn't say blood he said "gore" and when I think of "gore" I think of someone being disembowled (but that could just be me) and I'm not saying she WAS disembowled or that anything would support that, I'm just trying to explain that I find "gore" more significant than blood.

7) I think Ned had a statue made of Brandon because rightfully the lordship should have passed to him next but unfortunately he died but regardless he was to have been the lord of WF. I also think he had a statue of Lyanna made because she was (in essence) Rhaegar's queen (or consort or mother of a Targ King etc) he was giving her a place in WF not only b/c he loved her so much but bc of her stature in the role of Rhaegar's life and Jon's mother. I think when Bran has visions of his father in the crypts being sad and having it regarding Jon, I think it's because he's really envisioning Ned "talking" (in essence) to Lyanna and telling her he's sorry that he never had the chance to tell Jon the truth (b/c I think Ned would feel he failed her in some capacity by not givng her son the kingdom to which he's entitled)

8) I think Jon would make a great king, I think that he is doing the best he can with the skill set he has now, but as his skills grow, he will improve in his leadership qualities as he seems quick to learn a lesson when taught. Remember when he first went to the wall and Noyce pointed out to him that he was being disdainful of his soon to be brothers because of what they were (rapists, theives etc) but that he pointed out how much more privledged Jon was than them having had a master at arms? Jon picked up on that lesson very quickly, as well as the lesson he taught him about "so what if they say your mother was a whore, if she was or wasn't, what they say wont make it true/untrue"...Jon is also quick to learn from Tyrion....what better person to teach Jon how to scheme, learn, command, etc than Tyrion? Tyrion who seems to know when to be ruthless and when to be merciful, Tyrion who always can figure out a punishment for a crime or a reward for a service well done? (I know I know, I'm a Tyrion fan). I think Jon could/would/should be king...but if the wall falls, is there any chance of the IT moving from KL to where the wall is now?

Where do I find the older R+L=J threads? I'd like to sift through them.....

[Old-Growth]

Kristina: Look at the beginning of V.36 of R+L=J. There is a post on the first page that contains links to all previous parts of the thread.

You can find v 36 a few pages back in the general forum index.

[Arya Targaryen]

What did you think the strongest clues for R+L=J in season one were? It seems like a lot of the best ones from the book are missing.

I think the strongest clue was Robert complaining about how many times Rhaegar might have raped Lyanna. We didn't learn much about the whole Lyanna thing, but if Rhaegar had the chance to rape her like a 100 times (I think Robert said that), and there was a war, and at the end Ned found Lyanna, dying, then Lyanna had enough time to give birth to a child. The other clue was (like in the books) Ned not telling anything about the mother, however, he does tell, uncomfortably, a name to Robert (what's the big secret then?)

I must admit, that even I spotted R+L=J from the show, I never realized Lyanna might have been willing.

2) Nobody has mentioned Tyrion in any of these threads, Jon and Tyrion know each other, and Tyrion is pretty clever. Tyrion now knows Dany and once again is showing his cleverness. I think that somehow Tyrion will put the puzzle together about Jon's paternity and reveal the mystery. Tyrion being honorable in his way and having sentiment for those who have been ridden rough shod over most of their lives will be willing to reveal to Jon what he knows (I have no idea how this comes to pass, just my thoughts, and I have no substantiating evidence). We all know that if Tyrion is anything, it's honest.

*edit- I would also like to add people are going to say "well tyrion is a dwarf, no one would believe him more than a crannogman" ...to this I say, Tyrion will have the power/might of Ser Barristan, possibly Dany, possibly Dorn etc behind him (he has a habbit of making friends at the right place and at the right time with the right influences) and Selmy may even have/know more info than he is letting on...then too, if Lemore really is Ashara the fact that she and Tyrion and Jon, Barristan etc could all be sitting on the same secret...to me that's a pretty powerful combo (again, I have no supporting evidence for this and it's all up to conjecture) and if Varys is really supporting Aegon/Blackfrye's etc...he and Tyrion may soon be enemies if my theory ended up having any ouce of truth.

4) Someone mentioned a Jon and Meera twins theory? Where did this come from? Curious....

2) I think Barristan and Tyrion might put it together, if they start to talk about things.

4) Jon and Meera: I think it comes from an Alfie Allen interview, where he said that there is something similar in Jon's and Luke Skywalker's situation. And since Luke had a twin sister, why not Jon? And where is she? The obvious answer: Howland Reed took her - and Meera is of the right age. (interesting theory, though I don't buy it)

[Gi_Varotti]

The “Martin won’t let R+L=J be true because it is too obvious” just don’t convince me at all and I think this point is a bit silly. I see Jon’s parentage as one of the 1^st things (mysteries) Martin thought about while writing the books so, back in 1996, when the AGoT was the only book available it wasn’t so obvious. I think the readers had absolutely no idea of who Jon’s parents were just by reading the 1^st book and without having any forums to discuss or help them see it (I’m not saying that some above average readers wouldn’t).

It is now because there are hundreds of discussions about it and some new readers start the series already knowing about R+L=J, which makes the hints glow like shiny Xmas lights in the books.

Honestly, I only suspected about his parents after Dany & Barristan’s chat. And that was on the 5^th book.

Bottom line, it wasn’t obvious back then (when he created the situation) and, unless one puts all the hints together and checks on the internet, it would not be so obvious now either.

This post isn't aimed at anyone and neither do I mean to offend or stick anyone but, gosh, using the alleged obviousness of R+L=J as an argument to prove R+L= J wrong just annoys the hell out of me.

If Jon ends up being Ned's and Wylla's or whoever else's son it's because Martin had it in mind at the beggining and not because it became too obvious, although it is not.

[J. Stargaryen]

I think the strongest clue was Robert complaining about how many times Rhaegar might have raped Lyanna. We didn't learn much about the whole Lyanna thing, but if Rhaegar had the chance to rape her like a 100 times (I think Robert said that), and there was a war, and at the end Ned found Lyanna, dying, then Lyanna had enough time to give birth to a child. The other clue was (like in the books) Ned not telling anything about the mother, however, he does tell, uncomfortably, a name to Robert (what's the big secret then?)

I must admit, that even I spotted R+L=J from the show, I never realized Lyanna might have been willing.

With a good explanation like that the answer is almost obvious. :)

[Gi_Varotti]

I know! Even 5 minutes from now would be too long to wait!

That is the thing though, Howland Reed knows the truth but who teh hell is Howland Reed? Why should the south listen to a frog eating cragnoman? Nobody seems to respect them. He will serve to tell Jon is true parantage, and Jon would believe him. Nobody else would. It would have to be Aegon. If Aegon somehow uncovers the truth, and is excited to have a half brother, he could leav a royal decree, prior to his death, stating Jon is his younger half brother and he is heir to the throne. That is one of the only ways southern lords would accept the Bastard of Winterfell as a true Targ heir.

Maybe it doesn't come from JonCon, maybe once Aegon gets the throne, secrate Targ supporters come out of the woodwork who knew about Lyanna and Rheagar, and they trace it back to Jon.

Oh and I'm no way convinced of my above theory, I was mearly stating a plausable way for Jon to legally inherit the throne, besided conquest. It would be crazy if Jon learns that the stands to inherit two Kingdoms. It would be a nice tie up at the end to reunite the realm. That is some list of titles King Jon Targaryan, The first of his name, King of the Andals, the Rhoynar and the First Men, King in the North and Lord Commander of what was the Nights Watch.

I know I know, too happy of an ending. The Realm will be seperated and because of my happy thoughts GRRM will kill a Stark!

Why would anyone need to believe it? My opinion is that Jon won’t sit the IT so it won’t matter if the South believes in Howland Reed or not. And I think this is the reason why I don’t agree with your theory (it makes a lot of sense if Jon intends to be King someday) because I don’t think that who will sit the IT is the key but, instead, who fights the Winter. If no one stops the Others there will be no throne to sit on. And if the throne remains, let it be Aegon’s or Dany’s (maybe they’ll marry and put an end to the war for the chair).

I think there must be some evidence, documents, witnesses (Wylla, midwives, a Maester, Silent Sisters, maybe a Septon, other servants.), objects of significance, something!

I think that there’s something inside Lyanna’s grave. Some sort of paper/document or proof.

IMO, Jon's character is too strongly tied to the North--emotionally and physically--to become the king of Westeros.

His actions throughout the series prove this. He ignores the political games at Castle Black because he knows there is a greater threat...he is willing to leave Castle Black even with the great threat that his looming to save 'Arya' and Winterfell...he was willing to forsake his vows to avenge his father and stand by his brother...and he refuses Stannis' offer to take Winterfell because of an emotional connection he has for the castle.

This. I can picture Jon as Lord of Winterfell or as King in the North but not as King of the whole Westeros.

That damn throne is too corrupted for Jon’s character.

5) I think Jon was born waaaaayyyyyyyy before Ned showed up at ToJ, I think Rhaeger and Lyanna were at ToJ for a while and Rhaeghar named him Jon after Jon C but that when Ned arrived it was easy enought to pass him off as Jon for Jon A. The ToJ is still standing on the map in ADWD so I question whether or not Ned truly "tore" it down. Where the heck was the Maester who took care of Lyanna? If indeed she was giving birth to royalty one would think that one of the best maesters in Westeros would have been present.

If Jon had been born way before Ned’s arrival at the ToJ, how would he be able to take the kid home and fool everyone by saying that Jon and Robb were of a same age? Plus, Martin has already made clear that Jon and Dany’s age aren’t too much apart (someone mentioned it here and I think Jon is something like 8 months older than Dany; please, correct me if I’m wrong).

And Ned saw Lyanna dying, and her death was very similar to a giving birth death, so how could have she died that way if Jon had already been born months before?

Maybe that’s the reason why she died, because there was no Master there. Or maybe there was and we just don’t know about it yet.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

4) Someone mentioned a Jon and Meera twins theory? Where did this come from? Curious....

This comes from an overreading of the Alfie Allen interview. I don't know anyone of repute who actually believes this to be the case.

5) I think Jon was born waaaaayyyyyyyy before Ned showed up at ToJ, I think Rhaeger and Lyanna were at ToJ for a while and Rhaeghar named him Jon after Jon C but that when Ned arrived it was easy enought to pass him off as Jon for Jon A. The ToJ is still standing on the map in ADWD so I question whether or not Ned truly "tore" it down. Where the heck was the Maester who took care of Lyanna? If indeed she was giving birth to royalty one would think that one of the best maesters in Westeros would have been present.

Sorry, probably not possible with the timeline. If Jon had been born when Rhaegar had still been at the Tower, there's no way that Ned would have been able to pass off Robb and Jon as being the same age, much less that Robb was older. Seeing as it's pretty clear that it was the childbirth that killed her, if she'd given birth to Jon when you suggest, she'd've been dead long before Ned arrived. There's some wiggle room on the time, perhaps up to 10 or so days before Ned arrived. But not a month or more. I also don't see much evidence that Rhaegar held Jon Connington in high enough esteem to name his son after him. Jon Connington holds Rhaegar in that kind of esteem, but nothing suggests it's reciprocated. As for the map, I'm reasonably sure that someone admitted that it was an error. They happen.

Given that Lyanna's condition and location was a secret to just about everyone on both sides of the conflict, they probably couldn't risk a maester. A prevailing theory, one I accept, is that Wylla was at the Tower of Joy as Lyanna's midwife and wet nurse.

6) When Theon has a vision in CoK he describes a vision (as Lyanna) covered in "gore" to me this means more than just mere childbirth, I mean he didn't say blood he said "gore" and when I think of "gore" I think of someone being disembowled (but that could just be me) and I'm not saying she WAS disembowled or that anything would support that, I'm just trying to explain that I find "gore" more significant than blood.

If Lyanna had had a very difficult birth that involved hemorrhaging, it's very possible for her to have a look of "gore." I think GRRM used the word "gore" to mislead, given that so many people probably think of Lyanna still dying violently at Rhaegar's hands. By choosing to use that word, the misdirection is maintained.