Why Stannis wouldn't be a good king

[Ingelheim]

And that was 300 years ago. The High Septon does not decides who will be King.

I know, but even if Stannis doesn't need to be a believer of the Faith, it would help.

[Ramsay Gimp]

I don't think he would be a bad King himself, but the religious baggage would cause serious issues if he gained the Throne. And Melisandre would likely alienate his small council

[Tony Soprano]

They don't have to. The King doesn't necessarily needs to be a follower of the Seven. (:

Yes, but, I don't think the Faith Militant would just roll over and hand Westeros on a silver platter to someone whose army is full of " heretics " following a foreign religion.

The High Sparrow is an ever growing threat to everyone, not just Stannis.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

Yes, but, I don't think the Faith Militant would just roll over and hand Westeros on a silver platter to someone whose army is full of " heretics " following a foreign religion.

The High Sparrow is an ever growing threat to everyone, not just Stannis.

Of course not, but ''they'' (not just Stannis) will deal with the Faith Militant. Maybe they'll even install freedom of religion and stuff. The Sevens start to behave like fundamentalistic muslims who see unbelievers or other believers as heretics who need to be converted or even die. (I am sorry if this offends anyone, not my intention) I'd like to see them gone. They made me root for Cersei.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Of course not, but ''they'' (not just Stannis) will deal with the Faith Militant. Maybe they'll even install freedom of religion and stuff. The Sevens start to behave like fundamentalistic muslims who see unbelievers or other believers as heretics who need to be converted or even die. (I am sorry if this offends anyone, not my intention) I'd like to see them gone. They made me root for Cersei.

Dealing with the Faith Militant may be hard after fighting a long, bloody war for the Throne. And Stannis isn't the best at making friends

[Knight Of Winter]

He is so just that he would finish offending every powerful house and the result would be civil war and rebellions.

That would be Aerys (and Joffrey in his later reign had he lived) instead of Stannis.

I think Stannis would make a fine king, if not a very good one. Through the series he is probably the only candidate for the Iron Throne who feels kingship is as much his duty as is his right. He promotes his subordinates according to their capabilities, not their birth (which is rarity in Westeros) - just look at how he names Davos his Hand or gives defence of Dragonstone to Ser Rolland Storm (a bastard). He is able to listen to and accept good council and act accordingly. Also, he has shown utter inability to tolerate injustice (well, injustice according to laws and his personal moral norms which may be different from ours), corruption and any form of shadowy and murky deals and intrigues (hence his contempt of LF and Varys). And, contrary to the popular in-universe belief, I believe he does inspire loyalty among his followers.

In fact, among all present and past contenders to the IT (Robert, Joffrey, Tommen, Renly, Stannis, Dany, Aegon), I consider him best fit to rule.

Still, one of his greater problems is that he allowed forming almost a parallel power structure besides his own "kingly" one - the power structure of Melisandre and her followers - so called "Queen's Men" who are more loyal to her than to Stannis. As long as Mel believes Stannis to be Azor Ahai, Queen's Men will be loyal to him - but the moment Mel discoveres different truth (like Jon being AA) or gets in conflict with him (e.g. once he finds out Mance was not burned) - Stannis might have potential civil war among his army.

[~Shiera Seastar~]

Stannis will be fine as long as Davos (Stannis' conscience) remains his Hand.

[Ponys123]

Stannis will make a bad king indeed, for he is dead. Or about to be, anyway.

[ab aeterno]

Stannis will make a bad king indeed, for he is dead. Or about to be, anyway.

That seems unlikely, all things considered.

[Sevumar]

Stannis is far and away the best contender for the Iron Throne and he has it in him to be a good, even a great, king. Here's a quick list of reasons why:

• He's experienced - Most of the other claimants to the Iron Throne are young and lack meaningful leadership or military experience. This is the case with Joffrey, Dany, and Aegon. Through Dany has been a leader at times, her leadership is inconsistent, erratic, and lacking insight or maturity. Renly, who is a bit older, possesses but a superficial understanding of what it takes to succeed as a king. On the other hand, Stannis has successfully led men in battle, wrestled with questions of justice and administration, and has shown that he understands that good lords must reward good service and punish crimes fairly.
  
• Willing to take advice - Stannis surrounds himself with advisers who can offer opinions on a variety of topics, and he heeds their counsel. In particular, Davos has been an important voice of honesty and morality in Stannis's court. He does not assume that wearing the crown makes him infallible, like so many others.
  
• Admits when he's wrong - Stannis has changed his mind or altered his course when he's been wrong about something, a trait not seen in other claimants. He takes Davos's rebuke about putting rights over duty to heart and goes to the defense of the Night's Watch. He abandons his foolish plan to assault the Dreadfort directly when Jon presents him with a better strategy born of the Lord Commander's superior knowledge of the North.
  
• He's flexible and pragmatic - It does seem a bit strange, saying this about a man who was characterized as likely to break before he'd bend. But bending is just what we've seen from Stannis. It goes hand-in-hand with his willingness to take advice. He's been very successful at turning former enemies into allies by working with the lords who rode with Renly, the Wildlings, and the Northern clans. Although he has converted to the Faith of R'hllor, he does not compel his followers or his allies to do so. He changes his plans when better suggestions come to light. More than many other claimants, Stannis has grown in ways that are important to being the leader of a vast country encompassing different cultures and religions.
  
• He's the only one who has taken action to defend the kingdom - Thanks to the efforts of Davos and his maester, Stannis answered the Watch's call for help against the Wildlings. While he has taken part in the war for control of the kingdom, he remains the only one to respond to the outside threat that Westeros will soon face from the Others, and that may be the most important kingly duty of all.
  

None of this guarantees that Stannis would be a good monarch, but it puts him in a much better position than any of the rest of the contenders. He is not without his problems, and much of his success would depend on his ability to select a good Hand and to know when to defer to that Hand's judgment.

[Ponys123]

That seems unlikely, all things considered.

Then explain how, exactly, is Dany or Jon going to be king/queen, with Stannis still alive?

[Lady Sansa Stark]

Then explain how, exactly, is Dany or Jon going to be king/queen, with Stannis still alive?

Explain to me why you think Jon or Daenerys will sit the Iron Throne in the end, if there is an Iron Throne in the end, and why Stannis absolutely needs to die because of this?

[Karleesi]

Not really. If he's punishing someone for a crime they committed it'd be hard to blame him. He's just enforcing the law.

Following the law, blindly, can be a bad thing. Like when Ned killed that "deserter" at the beginning of the story, rather than listening to what he had to say and finding out more about the Others ... I think Stannis is unbending and that "can" be a bad thing.

[Ponys123]

why Stannis absolutely needs to die because of this?

This is the simplest part to answer, Stannis won't let anyone else sit the throne - he has the best claim, and he'll abide the law or die. Suggesting otherwise is naive, because there is no way in hell a character like Stannis would step down in favor of Jon, or anyone else. As for Dany, well, if she comes, Stannis is roast.

Explain to me why you think Jon or Daenerys will sit the Iron Throne in the end, if there is an Iron Throne in the end

I didn't specify which throne. No King in the North, either, with Stannis in charge.

[Buried Treasure]

That would be Aerys (and Joffrey in his later reign had he lived) instead of Stannis.

I think Stannis would make a fine king, if not a very good one. Through the series he is probably the only candidate for the Iron Throne who feels kingship is as much his duty as is his right. He promotes his subordinates according to their capabilities, not their birth (which is rarity in Westeros) - just look at how he names Davos his Hand or gives defence of Dragonstone to Ser Rolland Storm (a bastard). He is able to listen to and accept good council and act accordingly. Also, he has shown utter inability to tolerate injustice (well, injustice according to laws and his personal moral norms which may be different from ours), corruption and any form of shadowy and murky deals and intrigues (hence his contempt of LF and Varys). And, contrary to the popular in-universe belief, I believe he does inspire loyalty among his followers.

In fact, among all present and past contenders to the IT (Robert, Joffrey, Tommen, Renly, Stannis, Dany, Aegon), I consider him best fit to rule.

Still, one of his greater problems is that he allowed forming almost a parallel power structure besides his own "kingly" one - the power structure of Melisandre and her followers - so called "Queen's Men" who are more loyal to her than to Stannis. As long as Mel believes Stannis to be Azor Ahai, Queen's Men will be loyal to him - but the moment Mel discoveres different truth (like Jon being AA) or gets in conflict with him (e.g. once he finds out Mance was not burned) - Stannis might have potential civil war among his army.

This seems like a very nice post Knight of Winter, but I'm not able to comment on most of it just now as you have pushed me to the breaking point and I need to rant. :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

I so fed up with people pointing to Stannis' appointment of Davos as a Hand as evidence that Stannis is a good leader

It just highlights the paucity of decent men that Stannis has been able to attract to his banner. Which is entirely a failing of Stannis that decent men are so unwilling to serve him.

A sensible ranking for preference of who should be serving in the capacity of 'kings chief advisor' is smart noble > smart commoner > idiot noble. Stannis made the best choice available to him when he picked Davos but that is because he did not have any smart nobles serving him. He has the Florents, ambitious enough to see Stannis has enough power favours, too idiotic to realise Stannis aint the favour granting type.

Other commanders during the Wot5K had the backing of more men than Stannis, and so didn't find themselves surrounded by 'flatterers and fools' (Stannis' own words) when they called a council of their captains. Probably in Robb's army there were smart and loyal commoners, and probably they got promoted to positions of responibility as sergeants and leaders of scouting parties. Did he appoint any of them as a high advisor, no. Not because he could not recognise their worth, but because he had as his closest advisor the Blackfish - who in terms of loyalty or blunt speaking to his king is every bit Davos' equal (both leave fools like the Florents in the dust) but who also already has learning, experience and respect given to him by highborn and low because of his station in life.

Most of the characters who aren't idiots do appoint the most suitable person they have available to the task in hand. Stannis does not deserve special credit for this.

[ab aeterno]

Then explain how, exactly, is Dany or Jon going to be king/queen, with Stannis still alive?

I was only saying that it was unlikely that Stannis is dead or will be imminently. However, I think Dany is unlikely to become queen (in Westeros) for a number of reasons, narrative ones included; and I think Jon doesn't wish to become a king, in all honesty. Stannis will probably die, but not quite yet.

[JonnSnow]

The problem with Stannis is that he doesnt bend to anybody.

He is very just person and will punish crime severely without any discrimination. He is also great military commander and chief. But would he make a good king?

I think not. His unbending will wouldnt set well with highly political westeroes. You have to be open for compromises if you really want to run a peaceful and happy kingdom. His style would be more like dictatorship which would cause lot of rebels and pain for smallfolks.

He also thinks that whatever he beilves in is right thing for everybody and that may not play well with others. He may also be unjust to some people unknowingly.

IMHO Stannis is a perfect fit to be commander in chief and leader of army. But as a king? not so much.

[mankytoes]

Because he stopped believing in gods the day his parents died in sight of Storm's End. He has seen the powers of Melisandre, not R'hllor. He isn't a believer.

Who says? We haven't had any POVs...

With regards to Aegon's convertion, you have to remember that he was a foreign invader, so he had an extra obstacle to overcome. Presumably the smallfolk were a bit like "who the fuck are these Valyrians taking our land?", whereas with Stannis it would just be "oh, another war, another king" to a lot of them. Assuming he would tolerate their religion at least, which I think current signs (no more weirwood/sept burnings) indicate he would.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Following the law, blindly, can be a bad thing. Like when Ned killed that "deserter" at the beginning of the story, rather than listening to what he had to say and finding out more about the Others ... I think Stannis is unbending and that "can" be a bad thing.

Everyone loves to say that Stannis is "unbending" due the comment by Donel Noye, comparing Stannis, Robert, and Renly.

"Robert, he was true steel. Stannis is iron, hard and brittle, he'll break before he bends. Renly, that one, he is copper, shiny but not worth much."

This does not mean that Stannis is unbending in ALL situations, as evidenced by the text. He has the ability to listen to good council and accept that he does not always have the best views on certain situations. He does not blindly follow the law, but he does faithfully uphold the law when necessary.

Even in Ned's case, he heard what the deserter had to say and thought on the deserter's words; still the deserter had broken the law and there is a penalty for breaking the law. The deserter could have gone back to Castle Black to warn his brothers and explain what had happened, but he chose to be a coward--although understandably--and ran away from his duty.

This is the simplest part to answer, Stannis won't let anyone else sit the throne - he has the best claim, and he'll abide the law or die. Suggesting otherwise is naive, because there is no way in hell a character like Stannis would step down in favor of Jon, or anyone else. As for Dany, well, if she comes, Stannis is roast.

It is in no way as simple as you say.

Exactly, Stannis will "abide the law or die"; so if someone else conquers the throne through "right of conquest" and Stannis is defeated he will accept them as the new king or queen of Westeros. In Stannis' view, he only has the best claim to the throne because the woman that he believes murdered his brother has put her abominations on the Iron Throne. Her abominations are not Baratheons and therefore should not be sitting the throne that is currently held by House Baratheon. Following the line of succession, as long as the Iron Throne is held by House Baratheon Stannis has the best claim to the throne. The moment someone else claims the throne and disposes of House Baratheon, in the eyes of the law and Stannis, Stannis no longer has the best claim.

[Lion of Judah]

I think he would be a good king, the only thing that may make him a bad king is his uncompromising ways.