Tyrion Likes The Starks

[Lummel]

You're right about Sansa. I think there a couple of other actions that show some sympathy for the Starks though; the saddle for Bran is the most prominent of those, and there is also his friendship with Jon (which partially came about because he chose to give Jon friendly advice) and privately (to Cersei, maybe even in the small council) he does voice some level of regret for the damages done to the Starks (thinking specifically about Bran and Rickon's supposed death).

I don't know about the saddle. In my opinion, it is not altruism or sympathy for Bran it is doing a favour for Jon. Jon has been nice to him and shows him friendship, Tyrion pays his debt, and a Lannister always pays his debts, by doing him a favour by helping Bran out.

There is always a tension between Tyrion's view of the Starks and Stark values and Lannister values which are much more commercial.

[1234567]

There is always a tension between Tyrion's view of the Starks and Stark values and Lannister values which are much more commercial.

The Lannisters very much seem to be, you scratch me back and I'll scratch yours, while the Starks are more like itchy back? Here let me scratch it.

......Okay bad imagery, but you get the idea.

[Wouter]

I don't know about the saddle. In my opinion, it is not altruism or sympathy for Bran it is doing a favour for Jon. Jon has been nice to him and shows him friendship, Tyrion pays his debt, and a Lannister always pays his debts, by doing him a favour by helping Bran out.

There is always a tension between Tyrion's view of the Starks and Stark values and Lannister values which are much more commercial.

Sure, but Bran also was, at that time, very much a "broken thing" and we know Tyrion has innate sympathy for those. Guilt also comes into play I think, as he knew Jaime was the one responsible and he seemed to want to make amends (in Jaime's place) to some degree. When he gets the news of Bran's "death", Tyrion seems to be sad about that.

I don't think Tyrion had a debt to Jon personally. Sure, Jon was nice to him but Tyrion was nice to him as well.

[Tommen]

He believes in merit where merit is due, because he rarely gets the merit he deserves. And he has a tender spot in his heart for cripples, bastards and broken things. Most of the Starks are at least one of these things.

[Lion of Judah]

Does he?

[Arya Targaryen]

I never got the impression he liked the Starks in general. He had respect for them (Ned, Robb - for military achievements). The only Stark he liked is Jon, I think. I'm not even sure he liked Sansa. He felt sorry for her, in his own way.

[Kolantero]

Tyrion himself was also planning to consummate the marriage, until the very last moment when he saw her fear and revulsion.

Yep. He didn't consummate the marriage, like i said.

The only other Lannister available on short notice, Lancel, was also unable at that time to consummate the marriage due to his injuries so Sansa would have been "safe" either way till the purple wedding. Other Lannisters, like Kevan's son, weren't in KL and Tywin needed a very quick marriage to forestall the Tyrell plans for Sansa and Willas.

1) If i remember well, Tyrion didn't know Lancel's state at that point (I think he even said that it would probably be Lancel who would replace him - very unreasonable thing to say if he knew his state) so that point is moot

2) Even if (1) isn't true Tyrion could not predict the Purple Wedding events, so "normally" Sansa would just marry another Lannister later. Without prior knowledge of what was going to happen, "safe until the Purple Wedding" doesn't mean much. In any case he made the offer, she refused.

Sansa didn't really decline his offer to go for Lancel instead - she told Tyrion she would do as the King had (just) commanded her, without actually making a choice between Lancel and Tyrion.

In other words she declined his offer

Both Joffrey and Cersei had just ordered her to marry Tyrion now, or face dire consequences. One wonders what would have happened should Sansa have been disobedient to them by accepting Tyrion's offer of Lancel. Especially considering the wedding guests (minus the Tyrells, of course) were already waiting and Lancel was still recovering in his room.

It wasn't going to be Sansa who would publicly refuse the marriage it would be Tyrion and he would take the blame for it so Sansa wouldn't be seen as disobedient. If the blame was going to fall on Sansa then what would be the point of Tyrion's offer anyway? It is clear from his wording that he was the one who would refuse and disolve the marriage and subsequently take the blame.

[Kittykatknits]

Tyrion realises what happened in Tyrion I AGOT. Obviously it was too late to save Bran from being dropped but it wasn't too late for justice. The point is that Tyrion isn't interested in justice. It's family and Casterly Rock first. He can live with the fact that his beloved brother crippled a boy and doesn't have any qualms about it. That gives some measure of how much he loves the Starks.

I agree. His reaction in that scene is not outrage or a need for justice. Rather he had suspicions and was curious to see them confirmed. No condemnation entered his thoughts.

I don't know about the saddle. In my opinion, it is not altruism or sympathy for Bran it is doing a favour for Jon. Jon has been nice to him and shows him friendship, Tyrion pays his debt, and a Lannister always pays his debts, by doing him a favour by helping Bran out.

There is always a tension between Tyrion's view of the Starks and Stark values and Lannister values which are much more commercial.

I do agree that the saddle had nothing to do with altruism or sympathy for Bran and was part of paying his debt as a Lannister. But, I saw it more as paying the debt owed to Bran rather than Jon. One Lannister broke him so that Bran can never walk again so another Lannister pays the debt by giving him a saddle.

Does he?

Have a soft spot for cripples, bastards, and broken things? Well, sometimes but no, not always.

Exhibit A: Lollys.

Exhibit B: Lancel. His and Cersei using Lancel in Clash is a big part of what led to the breaking and religious awakening in him later.

I have other examples too...

[Little Bird of Varys]

In Clash of Kings, I was hoping for him to do something about Stark. Something beneficial or complacent. But we know that this did not occur. Independent of anything, he fell into the trappings of power, realizing that or not.

He preferred to lie with his whore and feel the power to actually do something that could have minimized a little dispute between the two houses. He could have returned the first Ice and bones of Ned.

I am one of the few who thinks one of the worst violations against Stark by the Lannister's what happened with Ice? If he really had much regard for Stark, at least could have returned the sword. Still, I believe he really some thoughts turned to Stark and Winterfell. Up to the sacred groves, but no more than a curiosity.

[Wouter]

1) If i remember well, Tyrion didn't know Lancel's state at that point (I think he even said that it would probably be Lancel who would replace him - very unreasonable thing to say if he knew his state) so that point is moot

2) Even if (1) isn't true Tyrion could not predict the Purple Wedding events, so "normally" Sansa would just marry another Lannister later. In any case he made the offer, she refused.

Tyrion must have known Lancel's general health situation - Sansa theoretically could have said the vows at his bed, like Kevan once suggested in Tyrion's hearing (as part of the ploy by him and Tywin to get Tyrion to marry Sansa).

Speed was of the essence for the Lannisters. Tywin either had to send Sansa back to the Starks (and he knew the Red Wedding was coming up, plus wanted to secure the north for his family through Tyrion) or directly confront the Tyrells about their marriage plans for Sansa, an unpleasant prospect. Marrying her NOW to Tyrion solved that problem in a very elegant way, and only Lancel was a more or less viable alternative for that.

In other words she declined his offer

The offer was not valid because it was too late. Had Tyrion made it the day before, she could have genuinely considered it without the pressure of disobeying a direct command - and the need to decide immediately.

It wasn't going to be Sansa who would publicly refuse the marriage it would be Tyrion and he would take the blame for it so Sansa wouldn't be seen as disobedient. If the blame was going to fall on Sansa then what would be the point of Tyrion's offer anyway? It is clear from his wording that he was going to refuse and disolve the marriage and subsequently take the blame.

The point of Tyrion's offer is IMO more psychologically; to make him feel better about himself and possibly in an attempt to score some points with Sansa ("see - I offered you a way out so it's not really a forced marriage"). Not that the offer is 100% insincere, but I wonder how he would have attempted to annul the marriage without getting Sansa punished badly for it.

Tywin and Cersei would blame Sansa anyway - for one she would have said "no" to Tyrion while she was clearly told to say "yes" (if Tyrion suddenly wants to stop the marriage right after speaking to her, it's clear what happened). For another, Joffrey even blamed and punished her for Robb's victories, he would not take kindly to being balked even if he knew it was Tyrion's doing. Sansa would be his punching bag anyway.

[Wouter]

I am one of the few who thinks one of the worst violations against Stark by the Lannister's what happened with Ice? If he really had much regard for Stark, at least could have returned the sword. Still, I believe he really some thoughts turned to Stark and Winterfell. Up to the sacred groves, but no more than a curiosity.

IIRC Tyrion did actually propose once (small council or to his father) to return Ice to the Starks, as he did with Eddard's bones in ACOK. Tywin wouldn't have any of that though, for the well-known reasons.

[Wouter]

double post

[Lion of Judah]

I agree. His reaction in that scene is not outrage or a need for justice. Rather he had suspicions and was curious to see them confirmed. No condemnation entered his thoughts.

I do agree that the saddle had nothing to do with altruism or sympathy for Bran and was part of paying his debt as a Lannister. But, I saw it more as paying the debt owed to Bran rather than Jon. One Lannister broke him so that Bran can never walk again so another Lannister pays the debt by giving him a saddle.

Have a soft spot for cripples, bastards, and broken things? Well, sometimes but no, not always.

Exhibit A: Lollys.

Exhibit B: Lancel. His and Cersei using Lancel in Clash is a big part of what led to the breaking and religious awakening in him later.

I have other examples too...

I meant does he like the Starks, because I never really got that impression.

[Kittykatknits]

2) Even if (1) isn't true Tyrion could not predict the Purple Wedding events, so "normally" Sansa would just marry another Lannister later. Without prior knowledge of what was going to happen, "safe until the Purple Wedding" doesn't mean much. In any case he made the offer, she refused.

Not quite correct. Tyrion did not know the specifics of the RW but Tywin broadly hints that something is planned. Earlier in the book, Tyrion is talking about the war with his father and ending the conflict and Tywin replies that some wars are fought with papers rather than swords. Also, in the same chapter where Tyrion is offered Sansa, there is a small council meeting. Again, Tywin is broadly hinting that the Starks will not be a problem much longer. Tywin has something in place, Tyrion just doesn't know exactly what.

I meant does he like the Starks, because I never really got that impression.

Ah, ok. To answer that question, I'll post bb back on page one:

More pointedly, I think his feelings for the Starks are conflicted between envy, admiration, scorn and feeling like a perpetual outsider to them

[Kolantero]

Tyrion must have known Lancel's general health situation - Sansa theoretically could have said the vows at his bed, like Kevan once suggested in Tyrion's hearing (as part of the ploy by him and Tywin to get Tyrion to marry Sansa).

Speed was of the essence for the Lannisters. Tywin either had to send Sansa back to the Starks (and he knew the Red Wedding was coming up, plus wanted to secure the north for his family through Tyrion) or directly confront the Tyrells about their marriage plans for Sansa, an unpleasant prospect. Marrying her NOW to Tyrion solved that problem in a very elegant way, and only Lancel was a more or less viable alternative for that.

None of this answers (2). And if the underline part would be truth (which is not, Tywin would never sent Sansa to WF or let her marry a Tyrell, he would just announced her betrothal to another Lannister) then how is it Tyrion's fault since Sansa declined his offer. How is it Tyrion's fault for what would happen to Sansa if she accepted his offer and he declined the marriage since you are essentially "accusing" Tyrion for not disolving the marriage? So no matter what Tyrion does on the subject he is guilty?

The offer was not valid because it was too late. Had Tyrion made it the day before, she could have genuinely considered it without the pressure of disobeying a direct command - and the need to decide immediately.

To late based on what? That's completely arbitrary. Sansa is pressured from Cersei/Joffrey/Tywin and it's Tyrion's fault? What matters is that when he made the offer there was plenty of time for him to destroy the marriage without Sansa looking "guilty" for it.

Plus, you also say later that Tywin and Cercei would have punished her anyway. How does that changes if he made the offer a day before?

The point of Tyrion's offer is IMO more psychologically; to make him feel better about himself and possibly in an attempt to score some points with Sansa ("see - I offered you a way out so it's not really a forced marriage"). Not that the offer is 100% insincere, but I wonder how he would have attempted to annul the marriage without getting Sansa punished badly for it.

Depends on what you mean "insincere". Ofcourse he liked the prospect of WF Lordship and a pretty wife, away from Joffrey who would have execute him as soon as he had full power and there is nothing wrong with that. What matters is that he made the offer and he was willing to go through with it.

For the Underlined its simple: In the middle of the ceremony he would say "Well I am not going to do it. I love my freedom too much." and then walk away

Tywin and Cersei would blame Sansa anyway - for one she would have said "no" to Tyrion while she was clearly told to say "yes" (if Tyrion suddenly wants to stop the marriage right after speaking to her, it's clear what happened). For another, Joffrey even blamed and punished her for Robb's victories, he would not take kindly to being balked even if he knew it was Tyrion's doing. Sansa would be his punching bag anyway.

She wouldn't have said "no" to Tyrion except in secrecy and no one else would know. She would have said "yes" publicly and Tyrion would have said "no" publicly

And if Tywin or Cersei or Joffrey would blame Sansa and punish her anyway then where exactly is Tyrion's fault in the story? If he marries her he is the bad guy for marrying her, if he refuse to marry her he is the bad guy because his relatives would punish Sansa, something he had no control over?

[Kolantero]

Not quite correct. Tyrion did not know the specifics of the RW but Tywin broadly hints that something is planned. Earlier in the book, Tyrion is talking about the war with his father and ending the conflict and Tywin replies that some wars are fought with papers rather than swords. Also, in the same chapter where Tyrion is offered Sansa, there is a small council meeting. Again, Tywin is broadly hinting that the Starks will not be a problem much longer. Tywin has something in place, Tyrion just doesn't know exactly what.

I was talking about the Purple Wedding not RW. The argument was that if Sansa was safe until the Purple Wedding (because no other Lannisters were around to marry her at the time aside Tyrion and Lancel who couldn't consume) she would be safe later (or at least safer) away from KL after the Purple Wedding events.

But Tyrion could not predict the Purple Wedding so the above doesn't apply for his actions.

[Ragnorak]

You're right about Sansa. I think there a couple of other actions that show some sympathy for the Starks though; the saddle for Bran is the most prominent of those, and there is also his friendship with Jon (which partially came about because he chose to give Jon friendly advice) and privately (to Cersei, maybe even in the small council) he does voice some level of regret for the damages done to the Starks (thinking specifically about Bran and Rickon's supposed death).

I can think of more thoughts like Tyrion regretting not sending Ice back when he realizes where Tywin got the material for Joffrey and Jaime's swords, but not really any actions. He defends Cat on the way to the Vale but that isn't exactly wholly selfless or pro-Stark. He shows plenty of sympathy for the Starks but I can't think of any examples where he acts on it. Even with Robb's peace offer he tried to break Jaime out and use unacceptable peace offers to "run out the clock" rather than make an honest offer of Sansa for Jaime-- or throwing Sansa and Jaime on the table and asking Robb for his terms to make that hostage exchange happen.

I don't hate Tyrion. He's a very enjoyable character-- but he's also a sympathy filled enigma of where victimhood ends and personal responsibility starts. His protection of Sansa and refusal to rape her carry tremendous weight in my take on him. For others his marrying Sansa in the first place just undermines that sympathy. It reminds me a bit of Ring Lardner's The Haircut where the reader is slowly pulled across a line to realize that this funny guy Jim that the barber is talking about is a complete bastard except with Tyrion Martin skirts the very edge of that line sometimes crossing it and then pulling the reader back over. Tyrion always has a regret or a positive impulse. His victims always have a glaring unsympathetic facet or there is a larger villain like a Tywin who overshadows Tyrion's role. Tyrion needs to be a dwarf in a martial society to be likeable or we would never accept or excuse his actions. He is a brilliantly written waddling moral dilemna.

[Quiet Isle]

To what extent though can members from different houses like each other? Especially great houses like Starks, Lannisters, Tyrells. Didn't Jaime told Ilyn that even if he avenged Cersei for her infidelity, Tommen's pretty wife would turn the situation in favour of House Tyrell? Quite often what is good for one House is bad for another. The only time when there were true bonds between Houses, was when Ned married Cat. Tyrion respects the Starks and likes them but he is still a Lannister. As evidenced, mostly in SOS, he would do anything for House Lannister. It just happenned that by the time he met the Starks, the Stark-Lannister conflict begun. I think that the one person that Tyrion was really close to from House Stark was Jon, the bastard, the outcast. He even requested from Lord Mormont to send Jon as part of his escort so that he could reunite with his brothers in Winterfell. Not to mention that he made Bran a special saddle. There is a film, by Jean Renoir, Grand Illusion. The film is set during WW1. The main three characters are French captives but from different backgrounds: One of them is an aristocrat, the second is Jewish from upper middle class background and the third is from working class background. While they are all French, officers and captives, the aristocrat has very little in common with them. On the other hand he establishes a strange friendship with the German officer, who also happens to be an aristocrat and it is implied that those men, from different countries but from similar background, would have been great friends if it hadn't been for the war. Perhaps Tyrion's relationship with the Starks reflects that. Also Jon said at some point that he wanted to destroy House Lannister but he stills thinks of Tyrion and considers him as a friend, sort of.

Perfection.

[Little Bird of Varys]

IIRC Tyrion did actually propose once (small council or to his father) to return Ice to the Starks, as he did with Eddard's bones in ACOK. Tywin wouldn't have any of that though, for the well-known reasons.

As I recall, at that time his father was not in town. He could have sending the sword along with the bones. He did so many other things without giving importance to others, could have done it.

About Sansa, he had little to do. If the two meet again, then yes we can see what a feel for each other.

[franko99]

Is that why he married Sansa?

With friends like that...

I agree, Casterly Rock is what Tyrion truly wants and feels entitled to (and considering Jaime doesn't want it, he is the rightful heir), but he was quick to accept Winterfell as a consolation prize. Why else marry an unwilling child-bride?

But I won't blame Tyrion for that, it was Tywin's idea, not Tyrion, his father was not a men to fuck with, and by that time kinslaying was out off the question. Tyrion never wanted to marry Sansa, he's the first one to recognize the marriage it's a cruel joke, he even propose Lancel or Martyn as better suiters, if he ever cared about the claim for Winterfell he could have force himself on Sansa, but he didn't, once in the free cities he rarely think on Sansa, and not once in Winterfell, he won't complain if the marriage get annulled. Tyrion has a lot of things to answer for, but this is not one of them. Yes Sansa take (by far) the worst part of it (poor girl) , but Tyrion was miserable during the marriage as well.

I think he respects certain Starks, and he appreciates the history of the oldest major family in Westeros and Winterfell, but I think it's a stretch to say that he likes them. As bumps points out, he has no major qualms about helping his father defeat them (in fact, at one point he goes out of his way to tell Sansa that the Lannisters will ultimately triumph).

:agree: , a bit of admiration and respect, but that's all.