Heresy 38

[Little Wing]

On Jojen's comment "If ice can burn" - from the Prologue, Gared: "Nothing burns like the cold." Two faces of the same coin. You need both for balance, Ice and Fire, with Man in the middle, hopefully not mocking things up, but we all know how that story goes...

[nanother]

Yeah, I like the idea of life and death belonging together, but in this case I'd associate fire with both, rather than try to associate ice with summer.

Also, the funny thing about the ice preserves/fire consumes duality is that e.g. Mel seems to be preserved by fire. I can't think of a similarly obvious example of ice consuming something off the top of my head, though.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Yeah, I like the idea of life and death belonging together, but in this case I'd associate fire with both, rather than try to associate ice with summer.

Also, the funny thing about the ice preserves/fire consumes duality is that e.g. Mel seems to be preserved by fire. I can't think of a similarly obvious example of ice consuming something off the top of my head, though.

The Wall defending itself? Dunno just spitballing

Another possible fire preserving is Moqorro "healing" Vic's arm

[Mace Cooterian]

I can't think of a similarly obvious example of ice consuming something off the top of my head, though.

Not to make a play on words but how about "freezer burn". Anything left uncovered in your freezer will utlimatley perish. Now I'm not saying that ice will decompose life (fire consumes and ice preserves). But subjected to long spells of sub zero temperature, anything with water content will ultimately acclimate to the area around it.

Side note from the Law of Thermodynamics....in the absense of heat, there is cold. In my profession (supermarket refrigeration), we do not make anything cold. But rather, we remove heat. The more heat you remove, the more cold you have remaining.

[Mace Cooterian]

11:00 pm (CST).

I'm concerned on two parts.

First, I hope that my reference to the Law of Thermodynamics has not become a "thread killer". @redriver, help me out!!!

Secondly, given that I'm in central standard time and I'm 2 hours ahead of pacific time.....Gar Weg has not posted in quite some time. Do we have patrols in the Washington area that we could dispatch!!!

[T0mBombadil]

off topic but has anyone touched base on the Stark family greatsword being named "ice" and the irony of Ned dying by his own sword? There is def a reason the Starks have lasted so long and I cant wait to find out all the mystery that is the North.

[Mace Cooterian]

off topic but has anyone touched base on the Stark family greatsword being named "ice" and the irony of Ned dying by his own sword? There is def a reason the Starks have lasted so long and I cant wait to find out all the mystery that is the North.

@T0mBombadi.

For the most part I would defer to the expertis: Black Crow (who will be rising shortly) and his hand Tyrion (who is already asleep c/o CST). Side bar, I notice that Toccs is currently logged into this subject and he may (does) have more knowledge than I.

I'll defer on the Starks having lasted so long. They are descendants of the First Men and I'll stop at that.

As for the sword ice and your posed "irony"; it sort of ties back into the Starks and Winterfell and the Lords (Kings) of the North. In a nutshell; Eddard Stark had to kill a direwolf, Lady (see Sansa) and this constituted his ultimate beheading by his own sword as recompense for the killing of a direwolf.

Side note: The said direwolf was perhpas a gift from the old golds as they were brought south of the wall for the Stark children.

[Black Wolf Smith]

off topic but has anyone touched base on the Stark family greatsword being named "ice" and the irony of Ned dying by his own sword? There is def a reason the Starks have lasted so long and I cant wait to find out all the mystery that is the North.

"Winter is Coming" isnt just a saying. It is a old war chant (like Arya used). King of Winter being more just a title. It would make sense that Ice was more then just a family sword. Of course, this isn't the first Ice, just the name that has been passed down, and the new sword rechristened as Ice. Makes me want to know what happened to the first sword.

[Black Crow]

Seems off topic but I swear Daenerys identifies with all 3 aspects of the Morrigan at one point. Mind you she never says Morrigan but she says that despite being a young girl, shes a mother, and feels as old as a crone, or something like that? Does that sound familiar to anyone else?

The old powers are wakening, or at least I am. I qualify on old but I'm not so sure about power...

Given that GRRM has given us the name as a clue in House Morrigen I very much doubt we'll ever hear the Crow Goddess mentioned by name, but what's also interesting about this one (an exact quote would be handy) is that Good Queen Danaerys is not a follower of the Seven, she remembers Viserys telling her that's the religion in Westeros but her knowledge of the Faith is sketchy and generally speaking she doesn't appear to have any religion in her other than an unutterable faith in her claim to the Iron Throne.

[Black Crow]

....For whatever reason the Cold Gods want more blood and they're coming south again (on a hunt) to get it.

Not necessarily. As I mentioned earlier the only reliable evidence we have of blood-drinking is the weirwood tree in Bran's last vision.

The forum generally has been scratching its head over the Others and how they can possibly exist in the Kand of Always Winter, and I think we're going to find that the short answer is that they don't. GRRM has described them as a "different" kind of life, we have this business of the Crone/Morrigan opening the door to another realm, we have them apparently riding the wind and assuming a corporeal form entirely if ice which loses its form when the magic is destroyed by contact with dragonglass.

All of which is consistent not with a gang of ice warriors sitting around at the north pole waiting for it to get cold enough to move south, but with their coming through a door, or portal if you prefer, from somewhere else entirely and temporarily assuming an icy form in the human realm. Which is where once again we come back to the concept of their coming from Faerie.

[Black Crow]

off topic but has anyone touched base on the Stark family greatsword being named "ice" and the irony of Ned dying by his own sword? There is def a reason the Starks have lasted so long and I cant wait to find out all the mystery that is the North.

As Black Wolf Smith says, we regard it as highly significant that the Starks are or were Kings of Winter, have a sword called Ice, yelled Winter is Coming as they slew their enemies and then went home to Winter Hill.

[T0mBombadil]

"Winter is Coming" isnt just a saying. It is a old war chant (like Arya used). King of Winter being more just a title. It would make sense that Ice was more then just a family sword. Of course, this isn't the first Ice, just the name that has been passed down, and the new sword rechristened as Ice. Makes me want to know what happened to the first sword.

Im assuming its still a pretty old sword if its valryian steel, do you remember where in the text it mentions a sword before ice, also being melted down by Tywin to create the sword Jaime gives Brienne. Where is the sword that was given to Joff? Was it buried with him or stolen by someone else I cant remember.

[Black Crow]

Mention of the older sword(s) is in a Cat POV in AGoT. My understanding is that a lot of the Valyrian swords were given out by Aegon to those who "knelt" and surrendered their own swords to make the Iron Throne - a fealty thing basically.

The fate of Joff's sword isn't mentioned but there's no way it would be buried with him, the Lannisters have waited too long to throw it away, it'll be destined for Tommen

[lurk4lyfe]

The Morrigan might not be the correct deity. Beira might be a better fit because she is explicitly referred to as the 'Queen of Winter'. She has a hammer which she uses to carve the land. She turned her maid into a river creating Loch Ness. The summer deity is Brigid her association is fire. Beira rules winter and Brigid summer. They are probably one and the same given that there are so many references to something being both. As winter passes Beira grows older and turns into a hag. In February she drinks from the fountain of youth and regains her former beauty as a maid. From this I think it's safe to say they're just different forms of a triple deity. Beira is the mother of all other deities They belong to the Tuatha De Dannan who went into the mounds of the sidhe after being displaced. The Tuatha De Dannan were once deities but no longer are. An interesting read is http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/tsm/index.htm which covers where most of this comes from and has some gems like 'the story of the struggle between spring and winter, growth and decay, light and darkness, and warmth and cold' and '"The wolf-month (February) has now come," the king said. "Uncertain is the temper of the wolf."'. It is interesting to note that Beira is seen as a bird and Brigid makes the raven's sing. She could be the Scottish Morrigan, but the Irish do recognize Beira and Brigit as a different deity.

[TheTizer]

Heh, the Braavosi the people on the Sisters see the storms as a result of the wind and the sea deities mating, and the Ironborn see it as a war, not a loving relationship... Those numbnuts.... :lol:

Is there any difference, take marriage for example... :D

[Black Wolf Smith]

Im assuming its still a pretty old sword if its valryian steel, do you remember where in the text it mentions a sword before ice, also being melted down by Tywin to create the sword Jaime gives Brienne. Where is the sword that was given to Joff? Was it buried with him or stolen by someone else I cant remember.

I saw somewhere that the app says that Tommen has Widows Wail, but I could not find it.

[TheTizer]

Mention of the older sword(s) is in a Cat POV in AGoT. My understanding is that a lot of the Valyrian swords were given out by Aegon to those who "knelt" and surrendered their own swords to make the Iron Throne - a fealty thing basically.

The fate of Joff's sword isn't mentioned but there's no way it would be buried with him, the Lannisters have waited too long to throw it away, it'll be destined for Tommen

But, I think I remember it mentioned that even these Valyrian Steel swords are from even before the conquest and have been passed down through the families for much longer, I could be wrong though.

[Melifeather]

If the theory that the Last Hero was killed by White Walkers and resurrected by the Children comes to fruition, then his ability to father children may have caused the warg gene to be passed down, and the family sword being named "Ice" has multiple meanings. Phallic symbol aside, it may have been ice magic that brought him to life and preserved him.

[Toccs]

Mention of the older sword(s) is in a Cat POV in AGoT. My understanding is that a lot of the Valyrian swords were given out by Aegon to those who "knelt" and surrendered their own swords to make the Iron Throne - a fealty thing basically.

It's in Cat's first chapter in aGoT. Specifically she thinks on how the sword Ice was made in valyria and is 400 years old.

I've never seen anything besides forum speculation that it was Aegon who handed out the Valyrian Steel swords after the conquest and that accounts for all the Valyrian Steel in Westeros.

Personally, I believe it was more likely a Silk Road type of trade route over the centuries. We know that places like Dorne and the Stormlands were interacting across the Narrow Sea. I suspect that through various trades, Houses in the North were able to purchase Valyrian Steel blades without directly trading with Valyria.

[Tyryan Lannister]

But, I think I remember it mentioned that even these Valyrian Steel swords are from even before the conquest and have been passed down through the families for much longer, I could be wrong though.

Don't have a quote at hand, but IIRC some of the family swords (Heartsbane if I recall as one of them) are said to have been in their respective families' hands for 600 years.