Profion Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Who were the Rhoynar exactly???I know this is kinda off topic, but I was re-reading an old Heresy thread and it caught my eye that there´s a theory about Bryden Rivers not being the 3EC but sent by him... there´s any text evidence supporting this or is just pure especulation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheButcherCrow Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 About the Andal timeline. Isn't it odd that when the King of Westeros is announced, "King of the Andals" is listed first then Rhoynar, then First Men. Is this perhaps the true order with the Andals coming after the Rhoynar?Andals landed in Westeros 6000 years ago. Rhoynar about 1000 (wiki says 700yrs before Aegon, 700+300). Who were the Rhoynar exactly??? Lived on the river Rhoyne, got badly beaten by the forces of Valyria, remainder of population, led by Nymeria, fled to Dorne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lysmonger Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 About the Andal timeline. Isn't it odd that when the King of Westeros is announced, "King of the Andals" is listed first then Rhoynar, then First Men. Is this perhaps the true order with the Andals coming after the Rhoynar?No, i think htats because it sounds better that way. More than likely, the saying as it is now revolves around the time daeron ll came to rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 About the Andal timeline. Isn't it odd that when the King of Westeros is announced, "King of the Andals" is listed first then Rhoynar, then First Men. Is this perhaps the true order with the Andals coming after the Rhoynar?There is also an angle of cultural dominance in Westeros. The Andal culture is the dominate in terms of religion, writing, speech, knightly/feudal politics, etc. We do not know much about Rhoynar language, as for culture, IIRC, the equal primogeniture in Dorne comes from the Rhoynar. As for the First Men, they used runes, and, IIRC, spoke the Old Tongue. (I would guess Black Crow will answer this question both thoroughly and eloquently.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 But it's one thing to say that these ghost stories have a kernel of long, lost truth and something else entirely to say that Old Nan has the gospel on the Night's King story and he's actually was really a Stark which proves that the Starks have some kind of long lost connection with the Others.There is just some material to work with from Old Nan. If we had all the stories of Old Tyra who raised Tytos, Tywin, Jaime, Cersei, and Tyrion, then we would have something to work with.Granted your point is valid. We have no idea how old these saying are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 17, 2013 Author Share Posted January 17, 2013 There is also an angle of cultural dominance in Westeros. The Andal culture is the dominate in terms of religion, writing, speech, knightly/feudal politics, etc. We do not know much about Rhoynar language, as for culture, IIRC, the equal primogeniture in Dorne comes from the Rhoynar. As for the First Men, they used runes, and, IIRC, spoke the Old Tongue.(I would guess Black Crow will answer this question both thoroughly and eloquently.)Yeah, the point is that we're talking about the Iron Throne. Leaving aside the question of when the Andals actually arrived - more like 1500 to 2000 yeas ago - by the time Aegon did his conquering they were dominant in Westeros, which was effectively Andaland, except for Dorne which eventually surrendered in its own right later, and the North which was the only remaining kingdom of First Men, and even it apparently influenced to a degree by Andal language and culture. Its interesting for example that even in the North they predominantly speak the Common Tongue rather than the Old Tongue despite the relatively short time which has elapsed since the conquest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 17, 2013 Author Share Posted January 17, 2013 But it's one thing to say that these ghost stories have a kernel of long, lost truth and something else entirely to say that Old Nan has the gospel on the Night's King story and he's actually was really a Stark which proves that the Starks have some kind of long lost connection with the Others.I think we gave up on Old Nan being totally reliable a long time ago - the most obvious example being the business of GRRM contradicting her on the nature of the Others. However, in the first place we also know from what GRRM has told us that the orthodox story from the Bran the Builder on down isn't true, and that notwithstanding the North remembering some important things have been forgotten, or rather not recorded accurately or otherwise by the septons and therefore until anything more concrete is revealed to us all we have to go on are the "ghost stories", which is why they form so much of the basis for our speculation, not as gospel by any means but as a starting point, trying to marry them to the real world mythologies on which this is based and trying to see what makes sense.In the case of the Nights KIng for example, casting him as a Stark as Old Nan does, makes a lot of sense in trying to figure out what's really going on and the significance of the Stark in Winterfell, but conversely there is a perfectly respectable school of thought articulated on these here pages from time to time that the Boltons are descended from the Nights King.It is, at the end of the day and until Winds of Winter appears, speculation, what we're doing is taking what we're given and running with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 17, 2013 Author Share Posted January 17, 2013 Who were the Rhoynar exactly???I know this is kinda off topic, but I was re-reading an old Heresy thread and it caught my eye that there´s a theory about Bryden Rivers not being the 3EC but sent by him... there´s any text evidence supporting this or is just pure especulation?This is the Morrigan theory; that the crows/ravens are or work for the Crow Goddess, also known as the Morrigan (and in Arthurian legend Morgana la Fay) and possessed of three human aspects as maiden, mother and crone. She's also the goddess of death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 17, 2013 Author Share Posted January 17, 2013 Incidentally, mention of the crone reminds me...That business of her opening the door to death and letting the first raven fly through is I think significant, not just for the ravens/crows, but in regard to the Others/Sidhe, because I don't think they're some terrible by-product of a science experiment gone wrong (so to speak) but are indeed as we've speculated a faerie race ("a different kind of life" to quote GRRM) and that someone, opened the door - or periodically opens the door, to let them in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaimeisnotazombie Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 I feel there is two main conflicts in the series.One for Ice | the Long Night (this would be a second Long Night)One for Fire | a Dance with Dragons (again this would be a second Dance) Ice is the coming battle with the Others and, the Great Other if there is such a thing. I dont think Others means just white walkers. Fire is the Battle for the Throne.I think only people with the Blood of the First Men will be able to defeat the "Great Other". Besides the Children of the Forest, It was the First Men and only the First Men (No Andals) who beat the Others before, and must again. If any pact was signed it was signed with the Blood of the First Men, likely a Stark.I dont think the Targs will be Involved in the conflict of ICE.The conflict of Fire will be Between Dany, Ageon, and Stannis (who has targ blood)i dont have much of theory on the conflict of Fire at this point.Just somthing i have been thinking about, seemed Heresy like to me, and thought maybe you guys would like it, or build upon it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 17, 2013 Author Share Posted January 17, 2013 Changing the subject, this is a post I just made on the reread thread which I think bears repeating here:Jojen has greendreams, and can see the future in a symbolic sort of way through visions but not do anything about it other than warn people.A greenseer on the other hand doesn't have greendreams but can see things through other eyes, first as a warg through his or her familiar, and then later through the eyes of weirwood trees, and because they are actually looking through eyes rather than dreams/visions they can see things as they are rather than in a cryptic form which needs to be interpreted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmmaoftheCanals Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 That business of her opening the door to death and letting the first raven fly through is I think significant, not just for the ravens/crows, but in regard to the Others/Sidhe, because I don't think they're some terrible by-product of a science experiment gone wrong (so to speak) but are indeed as we've speculated a faerie race ("a different kind of life" to quote GRRM) and that someone, opened the door - or periodically opens the door, to let them in.The opening the door of death reminds me a bit of Pandora's box... Something you're not supposed to open, but open anyway and as a result you bring evil in the world. Though of course the crow/ravens might not be evil per se, I think they are regarded as a bad omen sometimes (only by the small-folk?: dark wings, dark words) and definitely have a negative connotation (calling the NW 'crows' is not meant in a flattering way I think)...If the Others were let in by such a door however, they would be considered evil and then it's really a parallel... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTizer Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 I've been thinking alot lately about the origins of these magical beings Dragons, WW etc.The White Walkers seem to be from the Faerie world as Black Crow has suggested. I do really like this theory and hopefully mine can stand along side it with both being viable.When the COTF brought the hammer/s, it disrupted the seasons as it brought about extremely unusual weather for that time of year, thus displacing the continuity of the seasons and creating the seasonal imbalance that has lasted up to the present day. With the seasons out of balance, the seasons themselves began pushing against one another. The intial imbalance caused one season to become more dominent thus, causing the opposing season to push back. Because of this new found dominance, new life was born, some with a fiery temperament and some with an icy stare (either in reaction of the other season becoming dominent or as a by-product of it's season becoming the dominent). This new elemental life became the champion of their respective seasons, either knowingly or unknowingly it makes little matter ( Although I would suggest Dragons not knowing while WW having a little more awareness). This new life was of course the Dragons (Summer, including fire wyrms etc.) and the White Walkers (Winter, including ice dragons etc.).They spread the cold/heat throughout the world by simply repoducing, living and expanding their realm of influence. They push to and fro against eachother, Winters and Summers trying to reassert themselves in the world. When one pushes, it ensures a longer Summer/Winter but also ensures an equal or greater reaction from the other side (every action has a reaction).Basically, what I am suggesting is that the White Walkers, Dragons and the other Elementally based creatures are products of the imbalance of seasons and initially, the hammer. They are the seasons 'push back', an attempt of re-asserting balance but this has been hindered by several factors including The Wall and the subsequent endless action, reaction that has been happening since the Hammer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTizer Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Ah, I guess so... I expect I'll cry my way through the end of this series... and then some :crying: :bawl:SAAMME! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mother of Mountains Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Is it heretical to suggest it's the Wall that is causing the seasonal imbalance? And that the natural climate of northern Westeros, everything north of the Neck should be much colder than it actually is? The Wall is holding the winter back shifting the temperate regions of the world a few hundred miles further north? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheTizer Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 That is exactly what Herasy (mostly) agrees on, that The Wall must come down to once again bring balance to the seasons. I'm not sure that, if it were brought down, the North would be colder though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mother of Mountains Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 I just wonder whether that might be part of the bittersweet ending. The Wall is down, the Others defeated but as a result much of Westeros is now uninhabitable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Profion Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 I like the theory that the Hammer caused the unbalance in the Seasons, but I have to disagree about being the cause of the creation of both dragons and ww. I think the Hammer allowed to the faery race who lived only in one place (land of always winter) to spread more freely since the weather wouldn´t change in 3 months, but in years, and cold for many years it´s what they need to live and to stabilish. Perhaps the opposite is also true, the Summer for many years maybe allow that Dragons come out of their caves warmed by volcanos and take the land... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Andals landed in Westeros 6000 years ago. Rhoynar about 1000 (wiki says 700yrs before Aegon, 700+300).Lived on the river Rhoyne, got badly beaten by the forces of Valyria, remainder of population, led by Nymeria, fled to Dorne.Yes. I know what the official timeline says, I was wondering if the title were a pecking order or a sequenncial order. For instance, Elizabeth Taylor the actress, she of many husbands, had a full name of: Elizabeth Taylor Hilton Wilding Todd Fisher Burton Burton Warner Fortensky....listing the last names of her husbands in sequencial order. I was wondering if a reverse sequential order became the title of the King of Westeros, but I thought it odd that Andal was first.Incidentally, mention of the crone reminds me...That business of her opening the door to death and letting the first raven fly through is I think significant, not just for the ravens/crows, but in regard to the Others/Sidhe, because I don't think they're some terrible by-product of a science experiment gone wrong (so to speak) but are indeed as we've speculated a faerie race ("a different kind of life" to quote GRRM) and that someone, opened the door - or periodically opens the door, to let them in.This is basically what I'm thinking. The crows are from the air element and the winter season and we should probably include the White Walkers in this same element and season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lurk4lyfe Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Changing the subject, this is a post I just made on the reread thread which I think bears repeating here:Jojen has greendreams, and can see the future in a symbolic sort of way through visions but not do anything about it other than warn people.A greenseer on the other hand doesn't have greendreams but can see things through other eyes, first as a warg through his or her familiar, and then later through the eyes of weirwood trees, and because they are actually looking through eyes rather than dreams/visions they can see things as they are rather than in a cryptic form which needs to be interpreted.When Bran passes through the black gate doesn't he notice that the gate is crying? Perhaps the black gate was the first Stark sacrifice to establish the pact and lay the foundation for the wall. The gate pities Bran's fate. This contradicts Jojen's dream of the winged wolf breaking chains (which I interpret as the weirwood net). However, the soul in the black gate may not be a greenseer and just a warg cursed or bound by some magic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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