Heresy 38

[Mace Cooterian]

@Black Crow...some thoughts from Heresy 37:

1) Ned didn't open his third eye in the Black Cell because he wasn't a greenseer. As you may already remember, greenseers have to also be wargs, but only 1 in a 1000 wargs is also a greenseer. He may have been a warg, or had the ability to be a warg, but without a direwolf he probably didn't realize he had that gift. On the other hand, if he had both gifts, warg and greenseer, he may not have been a believer since he has already been confirmed by Catelyn to be a disbeliever in signs, and since he's poo-poo'd Old Nan's stories, I'd have to say that he just doesn't believe in any of the magical stuff.

2) I agree that the dreamers Bran saw impaled may have been scare tactics to help him fly.

@wolfmaid - "brothers and our bane" could also mean that the Children warged the giants and were ashamed. The Children may have been blackmailed into warging the giants in order to build the Wall, for instance.

@Feather Crystal. Glad to see you back in the midst given your recent 'promotion'. Hope things are well and enjoyed your well put together culmination. A few items I wanted to respond to:

1) I have often wonder about the need of direwolves for the Stark children to open their...inner being. Your comment on Ned seems to be right on track. Makes you wonder about when the last time direwolves showed up at Winterfell???

2) Towards the end of H37 there was discussion about the skulls of greenseers maybe being those that did not pass the test. Along side of scare tactics, I wonder if they were not put there to "jam the frequencies" of future greenseers so that they could not look into The Land of Always Winter.

Brothers and bane. I like where you are going with this idea; but a question to the masses. Are all Children wargs? Or maybe, just a few; at least enough to warg said giants to facilitate the building of the wall. In that case; is warging another name for magic???

[Melifeather]

He can see out of the weirwood throne, as nanother said in his previous post, but here's the textual evidence:

The singers carved eyes into their heart trees to awaken them, and those are the first eyes a new greenseer learns to use … but in time you will see well beyond the trees themselves.”

“When?” Bran wanted to know.

“In a year, or three, or ten. That I have not glimpsed. It will come in time, I promise you. But I am tired now, and the trees are calling me. We will resume on the morrow.”

Hodor carried Bran back to his chamber, muttering “Hodor” in a low voice as Leaf went before them with a torch.

Watching the flames, Bran decided he would stay awake till Meera came back.

(...)

… but then somehow he was back at Winterfell again, in the godswood looking down upon his father.

So, Bran was in his chamber, not in a tree, having his visions and through time no less.

Edited for weird copy paste results...

That passage certainly deserves a thorough re-read investigation. I didn't even recognize it. So you think he actually saw his father again without the benefit of a connection to a weirwood, or was he asleep and dreaming?

[Melifeather]

@Feather Crystal. Glad to see you back in the midst given your recent 'promotion'. Hope things are well and enjoyed your well put together culmination. A few items I wanted to respond to:

1) I have often wonder about the need of direwolves for the Stark children to open their...inner being. Your comment on Ned seems to be right on track. Makes you wonder about when the last time direwolves showed up at Winterfell???

2) Towards the end of H37 there was discussion about the skulls of greenseers maybe being those that did not pass the test. Along side of scare tactics, I wonder if they were not put there to "jam the frequencies" of future greenseers so that they could not look into The Land of Always Winter.

Brothers and bane. I like where you are going with this idea; but a question to the masses. Are all Children wargs? Or maybe, just a few; at least enough to warg said giants to facilitate the building of the wall. In that case; is warging another name for magic???

Thanks! I don't get as much free time as before, but I dwell on the current topics longer before adding my thoughts, so maybe that's a good thing?

I think we need to determine the differences between human greenseers, Children that have greensight, and singers...is there specific mention of Children greenseers? I guess I'm not quite sure.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

I think we need to determine the differences between human greenseers, Children that have greensight, and singers...is there specific mention of Children greenseers? I guess I'm not quite sure.

I don't think we have enough information to come to a conclusion. I can't recall mention of COTF greenseers explicitly. However, they existed during the war with the first men so I think we have to accept that as a yes.

EDIT: I think this is as specific as it gets

"Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest. By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance. But once inside the wood they linger long indeed. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom as deep as the roots of the ancient trees. Greenseers."

Since hes only talking about the singers I think that's as explicit as you could hope for. I had also forgotten that Brynden despite being a greenseer talks of 'gods'.

[Toccs]

The signing of the Pact on the Isle of Faces was explicitly said to have been attended by the Wise Men and Heroes of the First Men and the Greenseers and Wood Dancers of the Children.

[Clan O'Raghallaigh]

Been reading the Heresy threads quite a bit but of course, I haven't got through them all, your points have been excellent though. Just a few points here to add that may or may not have been talk about before.

The name Bran was a famous hound of Finn Mac Cumhal, which shows us how important the connection between the wolves and the Starks truly is. Bran and Sceolan were extremely clever hounds, and could tell that a deer was actually a human and did not attack it, which shows that they had human characteristics. All very similar to the ASOIAF, a man with strong trust and knowledge of its hounds, a hounds/wolves strong connection with its master, the hound having perhaps a deeper knowledge of things, especially magic then its master (even though Finn Mac Cumhal tasted the Salmon of Knowledge), a Deer which was "warged" by a women.

Also with Jon, in the north the whole Bastard thing may not matter to much, Conn O'Neill, who was The O'Neill and King of Tyrone, heir was Matthew O'Neill (even Queen lizzie accepted this), was a Bastard. Although Shane O'Neill his half brother successfully defeated Matthew and became the O'Neill, Matthew son, Hugh O'Neill, became the most important O'Neill since the O’Neill’s lost the Throne of Ireland around 550 years before. Just pointing out that Jon being a bastard may not have too big of deal for the northern lords.

Another point, in one of Jons Clash of Kings chapters, the one where he finds the horn and dragon glass, I get a feeling the Others know they are setting up fort at the fist of the first men. Mormont informs Jon of their intentions, right beside his Raven, which was being warg by Brynden Rivers. Brynden then informs the others of the arrival of the Night Watch at the fist of the first men. The others then go to investigate, that is why it is feeling so cold the first night they are staying there. The others retreat and bring an army of weights. This shows that perhaps the children of the forest and the Old Gods, are not ally to the Night Watch. Which is why the Raven pays such a big part in making Jon the Night Watch’s Commander, he knew that Jon would bring about the destruction of the Night Watch. The Night Watch itself maybe was created by someone other then the Starks or the Old Gods. A bit crackpot but perhaps I'm right.

The Night King is very important, and be great to learn more about him, perhaps was an ally to the Others, but the Night Watch couldn’t have that so like what they did with Jon, they killed him along with help from the King in the North. Like just like how Jon was originally against the Wildings, he changed this, perhaps Jon will change his mind about the Others as well.

[Black Crow]

I think the passage about what Bran can and can't see is being slightly misunderstood. What's important is this bit:

The singers carved eyes into their heart trees to awaken them, and those are the first eyes a new greenseer learns to use; but in time you will see well beyond the trees themselves.

As pointed out above there was no physical connection required, and when Bran was alone later in bed, that's what he was doing - seeing through the eyes of the heart tree in Winterfell. Effectively he was seeing as per expectation. What Bryn Blackwood was telling him was not that he would be able to see without sitting in his weirwood throne, but that with practice he would be able to see beyond the visual range of those carved eyes.

As he hasn't done so yet, we don't know for certain how this enhanced ability will work or differ from warging, but perhaps its a remote warging or at least dreaming into distant creatures which haven't previously bonded.

[Black Crow]

...The Night King is very important, and be great to learn more about him, perhaps was an ally to the Others, but the Night Watch couldn’t have that so like what they did with Jon, they killed him along with help from the King in the North. Like just like how Jon was originally against the Wildings, he changed this, perhaps Jon will change his mind about the Others as well.

Welcome to the forum and to Heresy. We've talked through a lot of the stuff mentioned in your post so you'll find yourself in good company here, but I particularly liked your last paragraph; its a nice parallel.

[Black Crow]

I don't think we have enough information to come to a conclusion. I can't recall mention of COTF greenseers explicitly. However, they existed during the war with the first men so I think we have to accept that as a yes.

EDIT: I think this is as specific as it gets

"Those you call the children of the forest have eyes as golden as the sun, but once in a great while one is born amongst them with eyes as red as blood, or green as the moss on a tree in the heart of the forest. By these signs do the gods mark those they have chosen to receive the gift. The chosen ones are not robust, and their quick years upon the earth are few, for every song must have its balance. But once inside the wood they linger long indeed. A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom as deep as the roots of the ancient trees. Greenseers."

Since hes only talking about the singers I think that's as explicit as you could hope for. I had also forgotten that Brynden despite being a greenseer talks of 'gods'.

Its interesting to break that down a bit. The greenseers, he says, don't live long. However that can only refer to their walking about on their own two feet, because he then qualifies it by saying they linger long in the wood. Is he perhaps speaking literally here and referring to that lot in the cave at the back; and if so the thousand eyes and hundred skins implies an awful lot of warging going on after "death".

[Black Crow]

That passage certainly deserves a thorough re-read investigation. I didn't even recognize it. So you think he actually saw his father again without the benefit of a connection to a weirwood, or was he asleep and dreaming?

Its his last chapter in ADwD, but as I mentioned in #28 he's seeing his father through the eyes of the Winterfell weirwood

[Black Crow]

This is quite a walk-back from what I originally responded to, however, which was a post that seemed to imply a much closer relationship than a common origin point a long time ago.

(emphasis mine)

That goes beyond a common origin story to commonalities in heirarchy, practices and beliefs. Also, the explanatory power this common origin thesis provides has tended, in the posts that I've read, to question the true motives surrounding the foundation of the Night's Watch by using said proposed commonalities as a way to link the Night's Watch to the "red lot", which, among Heretics seems to be the closest thing to a true antagonist in the series.

The point being that as Mel declares this is a war which has been waged since time began - through a succession of proxies

[Runaway Penguin]

Kinda getting still stronger vibes of Babylon 5 (not only because I am re-watching the series) and the Vorlon-Shadow conflict. Also led by proxies... And also with characters becoming mostly shades of grey.

Could the series really end with disposing of magic completely (leaing to natural weather cycles)? "Get the Hell out of our galaxy" style...

EDIT: Heck, even the bittersweet ending fits, the war ends, but the "wondrous beings" leave for good. The main hero gets very high - but knows that he's dead in 20 years... etc.

[Lummel]

...Also with Jon, in the north the whole Bastard thing may not matter to much...Just pointing out that Jon being a bastard may not have too big of deal for the northern lords...

It might not matter to the northern mountain clans and it certainly doesn't matter to the Wildlings, but that feeds into the Jon as King of the Wildlings theory rather than into the heresies here.

But then being legitimate ruler of westeros or the north is a very different proposition to being champion of ice or fire, or being the proxy of melisandre or Bloodraven.

[Viserys_The Transformed]

It seems important that Bran sees out through the Winterfell tree and not the tree that he was recently sitting in. Perhaps the real trick is in combining the powers of seeing out of (1) the tree you are attached to (assuming the sap Bran had was from the tree he was attached to) (2) the tree that you are most familiar/connected to (for Bran, the Winterfell tree)

I am wary of omniscience of any kind for Bran. Omniscience seems too close to breaking GRRM's rule of not seeing a god directly acting. Bran knowing all of past, present, and future seems too powerful to make a good story.

I wrote this another thread.

Is this helpful in understanding powers of Bran ?

Keep yourself as a POV in Bran's place. Given; He has power to access real events from weirwood network. But , He is yet bound by time.

For example, You can go and watch anything in history. But at one time you will watch only one thing. To know the history of, say, 2000 years, it may require some time for you to cover that knowledge.

And, Bran will still be bound by his choices: what he chooses to know? and on what he takes some action, the direction of action based on his knowledge ?

Bloodraven is a god. So is Bran , a god.

But , both gods have their own personalities which dictate their interpretations of information and thus their choices.

So, it is not that simple as OP suggests. It is the same power in the two different hands. :)

For example, power of life is given to all of us. Yet, each of us live differently and take different routes to Happiness.

We choose different things from the same power of life.

[Viserys_The Transformed]

Is not Greenseeing the same magic which is used in Dragonglass candles also ? Just the fire version of the same magic which allows to see you through weirwoods.

So many persons have this power of looking the events which are physically, and by time, far from their position.

And Green dreams of Jojen are not the Greenseeing as practised by BR and Bran.

[ARYa_Nym]

Thank you Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik for this from the last thread:

I guess that's my problem. I'm starting to see lots of darkness themes around bran. For example when Bran contacts Jon and appears as weirwood in the crypts, he says that he doesn't mind the darkness, even though Jon notes that he smells like death. Not liking that at all.

I hadn't noticed this before but this is another thing to add to this list of similarities b/w Bran and Arya. The Ghost of High Heart said that of her too.

On the darkness theme the KM told Arya that darkness must be as sweet to her as the light is.

BR told Bran:

"Never fear the darkness, Bran....The strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mothers milk. Darkness will make you strong."

LW I liked your Jung comment. It made me think of James Arryn's post.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/75854-aryas-destiny/page__st__600#entry3806048

[Profion]

I was thinking about Wood dancers, do you guys thinks there´s a possibility that this line of CotF may control the trees and made them move? Like an Ent perhaps? Or maybe some fighting type of the CotF?

[Lummel]

No.

We are told stories about people talking to ravens in those ancient days, but we don't have stories of moving trees which strike me as fairly dramatic and memorable. Plus moving trees would have made a mockery of the land split deal that the Children and First Men sealed to end their war: 'Oh you thought that was a high moor? How could you have missed this huge forest, well we'll let you off this time...' :)

[Melifeather]

I do now remember various mentions of the Children having their own greenseer, but there must be a reason why they need Bran. It also came to mind that Bran and Rickon had green dreams...they both dreamed of their father's death. Rickon says he spoke with Ned in the crypts, so perhaps Ned's spirit is already at Winterfell?

[nanother]

I suppose they used to have their own greenseers, but not anymore...there's hardly any of them left and greenseers are rare...Those old ones in the back room still seem to be alive, but maybe they d fade away in time and need replacement...or possibly there;s something special about human greenseers.

It does seem like Ned is already in the crypts when they dream about him (which raises the question of what the bones are for...)