Deaf Twins Euthanised In Belgium

[Castel]

Well arguably the suicide of these twins was a result of a mental disorder. The reason cited was being unable to bear the thought of not being able to see one another. Another description for that mental state could be depression. There's not many cases where people want to kill themselves that don't involve some sort of treatable emotional or psychological disorder. These guys could have been worked throught he transition to blindness and they may have come out of it with a reasonable and happy life.

Having a terminal illness and being in intractable physical pain would be one of the few circumstances that would qualify for euthanasia in Anti-targistan.

I think that a line should be drawn between a chemical imbalance with no basis and depression that is actually caused by something. The first is something that I would think skews the perception of the person the second seems less objectionable to me. The CEO who lost everything and jumped out of a window is not under any false impression about his quality of life. You might be able to goad him to live with his new status but at that moment he's not misled and he knows how his life will go so I personally don't see the problem.

Yeah, Helen Keller, WTF was she thinking leading a full and rich life?

Wasn't Helen Keller blind and deaf from a few months old a few months after birth? That makes adapting easier.

[Sci-2]

ViniS,

Yeah, Helen Keller, WTF was she thinking leading a full and rich life?

But is right to ask other people to live that life so you can feel better about creation/existence?

I actually had a much more controversial opinion on bodily autonomy, with prostitution and abortion being included. Not because I'm pro-life/anti-choice but because I think most people are unwilling to take the principle of bodily autonomy to it's farthest conclusion.

Heck, I'm not sure what the right answer is, though I'm confident including children is not part of it. Also, it may be the case that we should not allow people to donate organs if they undergo euthanasia...which opens new cans of worms.

[Robin Of House Hill]

Yeah, Helen Keller, WTF was she thinking leading a full and rich life?

Plenty of people with such disabilities manage to live whole and fulfilling lives.

I think things are different for those who have had their hearing and sight for most of their lives. To lose both, for them, is a severe loss. Let me ask this. What would you do if you became deaf and blind?

[TerraPrime]

Re: Anti-Targ

Well arguably the suicide of these twins was a result of a mental disorder. The reason cited was being unable to bear the thought of not being able to see one another. Another description for that mental state could be depression. There's not many cases where people want to kill themselves that don't involve some sort of treatable emotional or psychological disorder. These guys could have been worked throught he transition to blindness and they may have come out of it with a reasonable and happy life.

I think it's suspicious to diagnose people who want to kill themselves as having symptoms of depression when the desire for suicide is itself used as a diagnostic sign for depression. Seems like it's begging the question.

Having a terminal illness and being in intractable physical pain would be one of the few circumstances that would qualify for euthanasia in Anti-targistan.

I'd beg to differ. I don't think we need to set up boundaries for who can and who cannot obtain legal and medically assisted suicides.

Re: Sci

But is right to ask other people to live that life so you can feel better about creation/existence?

Just so.

Also, it may be the case that we should not allow people to donate organs if they undergo euthanasia...which opens new cans of worms.

I'm not sure I follow this link between legal assisted suicide and organ donation.

[Sci-2]

I'm not sure I follow this link between legal assisted suicide and organ donation.

An earlier poster noted that people who were asking for euthanasia were also being asked to donate organs.

[TerraPrime]

An earlier poster noted that people who were asking for euthanasia were also being asked to donate organs.

Yes, but why do you think that people requesting assisted suicide should not be asked to donate organs?

[Sci-2]

Yes, but why do you think that people requesting assisted suicide should not be asked to donate organs?

Oh, I'm not 100% sure they shouldn't, but I think it gets into dangerous territory where caregivers can recommend suicide to someone and then harvest their organs.

Of course there are good arguments the other way, that if a person can be talked into suicide then it must be something they've considered and so on.

[Guest Raidne]

I was responding specifically to the poster I quoted and was not trying to question the decision of these brothers. Sorry it came off that way.

How can you do one without the other? All he said was "Deaf and Blind? I'd fucking kill myself, that's no quality of life I'd want to have." I'm guessing the brothers were thinking pretty much the same thing, no?

On the overall issue, people can commit suicide. There is nothing anyone can do about that; it's a fact. The only issue is whether they should be able to hire people to help them do it in the least unpleasant way possible.

[Seli]

How can you do one without the other? All he said was "Deaf and Blind? I'd fucking kill myself, that's no quality of life I'd want to have." I'm guessing the brothers were thinking pretty much the same thing, no?

On the overall issue, people can commit suicide. There is nothing anyone can do about that; it's a fact. The only issue is whether they should be able to hire people to help them do it in the least unpleasant way possible.

One thing to note that euthanasia for these type of complaints is relatively rare*. In the vast majority of cases it is used to allow terminally ill cancer patients to die with dignity at their own home or in similar comfortable circumstances. And the dying with dignity part is something to keep in mind. As well as the safety system in place to make sure the system is not misused.

* in the Dutch statistics I accessed, and probably also in Belgium

[Trident full of Dogs]

This is very worrisome. Next thing suicidal people won't have their suicidal tendencies questioned or treated anymore, they will go through euthanasia as well. Actually wasn't that what happened to the twins? They were suicidal and had government help.

[Sci-2]

If you can commit suicide before 16, can you visit a sex worker before becoming an adult? Can the sex worker give you some great oral?

[Castel]

If you can commit suicide before 16, can you visit a sex worker before becoming an adult? Can the sex worker give you some great oral?

Not unless her mouth can cure cancer.

But seriously, this seems to be an odd case, most likely the minors committing suicide have some sort of terminal illness. eta: It's not purely an issue of "I can do what I like with my body all the time"/

On that note:

It's also leaving more room for some badly intentioned people to entice people to go for assited suicide so they can harvest their organs. That it would most likely not happen or in exceptional cases only doesn't change the fact that it's wrong to let ways to do that exist; and it does harm the medical community if the public has reasonable cause to think it could happen, without strict oversight.

They'd also most likely be enticing terminally ill people, who probably would have died anyway so...yeah, don't see much of an issue.

[Sixshells]

Yes, but why do you think that people requesting assisted suicide should not be asked to donate organs?

Because, as people who are in a vulnerable place (as demontrated by their wish to die), they are supposedly more susceptible to grant the request to harvest their organs than they would ordinarily. If they had already gotten a donor card before or something equivalent it's different but shouldn't both those important decisions be taken independantly?

It's also leaving more room for some badly intentioned people to entice people to go for assited suicide so they can harvest their organs. That it would most likely not happen or in exceptional cases only doesn't change the fact that it's wrong to let ways to do that exist; and it does harm the medical community if the public has reasonable cause to think it could happen, without strict oversight.

The right for people to end their own lives cannot mean a lessening in protection of people's right to continue to live even when going through intense suffering or impairment of their ability to communicate or decide. Edit:The dying in dignity part is important but it can only happen if it the final and absolute decision of an individual not being pressured into it and who have been offered every help possible before that.

[Sci-2]

Not unless her mouth can cure cancer.

But seriously, this seems to be an odd case, most likely the minors committing suicide have some sort of terminal illness.

I just find it odd that you can legally get suicide but not oral sex.

eta: By "odd" I mean "batshit insane".

[TrackerNeil]

On the overall issue, people can commit suicide. There is nothing anyone can do about that; it's a fact. The only issue is whether they should be able to hire people to help them do it in the least unpleasant way possible.

Agreed and agreed. Sometimes I think that when we oppose this sort of thing, we're not thinking of others but of ourselves.

Personally, I cannot imagine being in the situation in which those men found themselves, and I don't want to. It's tragic...and it's none of my business. At all.

[TerraPrime]

Because, as people who are in a vulnerable place (as demontrated by their wish to die), they are supposedly more susceptible to grant the request to harvest their organs than they would ordinarily. If they had already gotten a donor card before or something equivalent it's different but shouldn't both those important decisions be taken independantly?

If the premise here is that we trust people's own judgment on their own right to life, it seems perverse to then question their emotional state regarding their decision to become organ donors. We accept that someone is of sane and steady mind to make a decision about ending their own life, but not regarding organ donation? That does not seem quite consistent to me.

[Sixshells]

On that note:

They'd also most likely be enticing terminally ill people, who probably would have died anyway so...yeah, don't see much of an issue.

Some people don't want their organs harvested. The worry is that their ability to decide on that could be impaired by their recent decision to end their life and so that they may be taken advantage upon by the medical personel when they present both forms at the same time.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Suicide booths for all!

[Larry of the Lawn]

This is very worrisome. Next thing suicidal people won't have their suicidal tendencies questioned or treated anymore, they will go through euthanasia as well. Actually wasn't that what happened to the twins? They were suicidal and had government help.

It would be interesting to see how many people who have been refused euthanasia by a doctor have committed suicide on their own later.

[The Iceman of the North]

Some people don't want their organs harvested. The worry is that their ability to decide on that could be impaired by their recent decision to end their life and so that they may be taken advantage upon by the medical personel when they present both forms at the same time.

They are hardly taken advantage of, they get the choice "assisted suicide & organ donation" or not getting assisted suicide. I they want the first, they have to accept the second.

My main concern with legal euthanasia is not those that elect to die, but those that have to perform the euthanasia. If euthanasia becomes legal, does all MDs have a legal obligation to perform euthanasia?