Dany Is Going To Surprise A Lot Of People

[Stannis Gotta Stan]

I never said anything about slavers. Someone else posted that.

you said enemies, all of dany's immediate enemies are slavers. Also Dany's enemies were not actually her enemies until she decided to launch what amounted to a pearl harbor attack on astapor followed by an occupation of Mereen. These people would not be her enemies if she hadnt attacked them out of the blue

[Uncle Stannis]

She has a good heart, no doubt, whilst she's with a dothraki army that enslaves people only because she wants to go to Westeros, frees slaves to get an army and causes an even worse tyranny so she can go to Westeros, sacks a city and rules over it so she can learn to rule in Westeros, the inhabitants of the city be damned. Her good heart means nothing. And I've only seen this "Dany-bashing" (I actually like the character) from a lot of people on this forum, so the shock will really be for more casual readers waiting for her to be a hero. Her riding in on a dragon and saving Westeros would hardly be shocking since its what most people think was gonna happen since the first book.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think Florina made the best point. A person can be an antagonist without being a one-dimensional, inhuman monster or a comic book mustache-twirler. I don't think that Dany is on the same level as the Others or, for that matter, her own dragons. Nonetheless, I still believe, based on her epiphany at the end of ADWD, that she's headed down a troublesome path ("dragons plant no trees"). And I certainly don't trust this iteration of Tyrion to lead her down a humane, wise and/or benevolent path. Tyrion at the beginning of the series, maybe. Not now. Characters aren't static. ETA: I actually agree that Dany "found herself" out in the wilderness. Problem there is that her "real self" is the fruitcake, fire-and-blood Targaryen conqueror, not the queen of puppies and figs.

The people I most sympathize with are in Westeros and for most of them, Dany's goals are in direct conflcit with theirs. So from that perspective, to me, she'd be an antagonist.

And I'm sorry but I don't give any brownie points for "a good heart" or "good intentions." This keeps getting brought up, particularly by the OP in various places, and to be brutally honest it is not worth shit. I don't give a flying you-know-what how good a person's intentions are. If they cause the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, you'd better effing believe I think they should be held responsible for it. I judge a person by what they do, the results of their choices and the impact, positive or negative, that they have. "She's brought death, destruction, destabilization and ruin to a horrifyingly large number of people. Oh but her heart was in the right place, so that doesn't really matter, can't hold it against her." Does no one comprehend how bloody insane that sounds? Some of the worst shit imaginable has been done by people who thought they were doing it for "good" reasons. Results matter, not intentions, and until people get this through their heads, this infinite logic pretzel will continue.

[Éadaoin]

First of all the notion of her becoming the main antagonist is pretty far fetched when one considers she has a good heart.

They do say that the road to Hell is paved with good intentions. :dunno:

[Stannis Gotta Stan]

She has a good heart, no doubt, whilst she's with a dothraki army that enslaves people only because she wants to go to Westeros, frees slaves to get an army and causes an even worse tyranny so she can go to Westeros, sacks a city and rules over it so she can learn to rule in Westeros, the inhabitants of the city be damned. Her good heart means nothing. And I've only seen this "Dany-bashing" (I actually like the character) from a lot of people on this forum, so the shock will really be for more casual readers waiting for her to be a hero. Her riding in on a dragon and saving Westeros would hardly be shocking since its what most people think was gonna happen since the first book.

this is a big part of why I think Dany will end up going down a dark path... I just cant see Martin going with something as predictable as the down trodden femme fatale who lost her kingdom goes on a journey, learns important life lessons then flys back home on dragons to save the day... anybody could have guessed this after the first book.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

I have seen so many members on this forum bash Dany that I thought it would be worthwhile to have a thread defending her a little bit.

First of all the notion of her becoming the main antagonist is pretty far fetched when one considers she has a good heart. No question some of things she has tried to do have backfired, but she is young and still learning. Given her young age and naivety she had no way of knowing that freeing all of the slaves would have the unforeseen consequences that resulted. No question she has learned plenty from that.

I also happen to believe that Dany's journey into the wilderness with Drogon is something that was needed for her to find herself. The chances are high she will come back with a much different perspective than she had before. It seems likely the lack of self confidence that kept her in Mereen for so long will be gone, so she can finally move forward.

There is little question the biggest X factor for Dany will be whether or not Tyrion ends being an adviser to her. As we all know he would have the ability to set her on the right track very quickly. All of the assumptions I have seen on this forum about her being perceived as some kind of joke will be gone if she allows Tyrion to help her.

In short we do not have enough information to know how her character will evolve. All I'm saying is what we have seen so far is probably very little indication of what her actions will be in the coming books. I'm not saying she will it on the Iron Throne, but she will play an important and useful role.

Excellent Dolorous Nedd! Those are exactly my sentiments regarding Dany

[Mace Cooterian]

Quentyn was basically screwed. I don't think it was the fact that there was food present that brought the dragons, I think it was the fact that Dany was there, so they thought they would be safe in going into the pyramid.

Dany is a descendant of Valyria, and it might be that the magic of the Old Valyrians that originally bound the dragons to them kept her safe.

Or, it could be that the magic of blood magic ritual she used to create them has bound them to her.

Or, it could be simply because she nurtured them that they have an affinity for her, and thus bind themselves to her.

Quentin didn't have any of these, so him going into the pit with them was...monstrously stupid.

As for advisors, Dany could do much worse than Tyrion. as an advisor, and he could give her lots of GREAT advice on how to take out Westeros (I mean he was on the ruling council and is a member of the current ruling family). He could also teach her the Game of Thrones, which he plays well, and which she needs to learn.

So I guess what I'm saying is that I agree with you on your second point, but not your first.

Point #2 check. Let's circle back to Point #1.

I don't think Dany is totally in charge/control of her dragons. At least not yet. She may get there eventually but not without the help of others. There is no question that the Targ's have tried to bind their children to dragons (e.g. Dunk and Egg and the fact that they put dragon eggs in their baby's cribs). IMHO, I still think she only has a modicum of control over drogon, and little to none over the other two dragons.

In my heart, she will eventually get there...but not because of her own effort and without influence from another party.

[THE INDIGO]

I think people have to stop looking at Dany as Black and white! Thats not the point of the book!

I suppose it's all about perspective then. My feelings and judgement of Tyrion and ALL characters have little and less to do with their social status and how much gold they have, and I don't really see what that has to do with the topic.

This isn't a Tyrion thread, it's a Dany thread, so I won't veer anymore, I promise! :)

You should! Tyrion has every right to be in that dark sad mean place that he is right now. How does gold make up for love? He feels like an outcast not only by society, but also by his family. He wants to be love,and notice for who he is not how he looks. However people judge him on what they hear and on how he looks.

"Hands of gold are always cold but women hands are warmer"

And Dany needs Tyrion. He is smart and knows battle, and the people of westeros.

[No one Stark]

you disagreeing with it doesent make it "far fetched".

Also... What on earth indicates Tyrion will be a "GOOD" influence on Dany? At this point in the story TYrion is a hateful little man who only lives for revenge... Hes mentally unstable, has recently murdered his father and ex lover, has been threatening and abusing slaves. You dont think hes going to try and use DAny to get the revenge he wants? Lets not forget the very suspicious advice he gave to Aegon that caused him to change his plans...

I cant see Tyrion being anything but a toxic influence on DAny, even when he was very likable in the first few books he was never what you would call a "good" person, now that all he really lives for is the chance at vengeance I dont see him being able to leave a positive mark on Dany... and I am almost positive Selmy is going to hate him.

lol wot. tyrion played a huge role in the victory against Stannis. He murdered his ex lover because she was sleeping with his father and betrayed him at the trial. His father betrayed him and whored out the only girl who actually liked him. His revenge is well justified. Tyrion is a GOOD person, you must be delusional.

But on topic I feel Dany will play a huge role in the books. I doubt even Martin would build up Dany this long for her to not have substantial success in the coming book.

[western wolf]

Actually, I think Drogon is the one that's giving her problems. She was able to get the other two into the pyramid, but Drogon, whom she has clearly demonstrated some degree of control over, said "I'm outs peeps. Lates."

That suggests that he's the only one who WON'T surrender his will, at least not yet.

[Ser Wun Wun]

Maybe Tyrion will provide some insight about the dragons, but hes still in an extremely nasty and bitter state of mind. It just doesnt bode well.

He seemed to be snapping out of that as of his last chapter imo. He had that Lieutenant Dan moment where he was cursing the storm, and then later Penny seemed to be having a positive effect on him. He seemed like he was back to his old self by the end of ADWD, and in TWOW preview chapter as well (based on the reports, at least)

*Crackpot Speculation* With all that said, I think his allegiance lies with Aegon and company, not Dany. He does not want to be laid at her feet, with his life hanging on the balance of her judgment. If there is any chance he can avoid Dany altogether by stealing a dragon, and then taking it back to Aegon I think he will jump at it. And since Vic is such a dumbass, I can actually see Tyrion outsmarting him and getting that dragon horn somehow. *Crackpot Speculation*

[Stannis Gotta Stan]

I still believe, based on her epiphany at the end of ADWD, that she's headed down a troublesome path ("dragons plant no trees").

"Dragons plant no trees" , is very interesting, it struck me as DAny coming to the conclusion that all this trying to cater to people and make everyone like her through kindness wasnt working and that we will be seeing a more dragon like approach of "fire and blood". I could see her realizing that the green grace is the Harpy (another betrayal) could be one of the first triggers sending her down a dark path

[Pyrrhus of Epirus]

I have seen so many members on this forum bash Dany that I thought it would be worthwhile to have a thread defending her a little bit.

First of all the notion of her becoming the main antagonist is pretty far fetched when one considers she has a good heart. No question some of things she has tried to do have backfired, but she is young and still learning. Given her young age and naivety she had no way of knowing that freeing all of the slaves would have the unforeseen consequences that resulted. No question she has learned plenty from that.

I also happen to believe that Dany's journey into the wilderness with Drogon is something that was needed for her to find herself. The chances are high she will come back with a much different perspective than she had before. It seems likely the lack of self confidence that kept her in Mereen for so long will be gone, so she can finally move forward.

There is little question the biggest X factor for Dany will be whether or not Tyrion ends being an adviser to her. As we all know he would have the ability to set her on the right track very quickly. All of the assumptions I have seen on this forum about her being perceived as some kind of joke will be gone if she allows Tyrion to help her.

In short we do not have enough information to know how her character will evolve. All I'm saying is what we have seen so far is probably very little indication of what her actions will be in the coming books. I'm not saying she will it on the Iron Throne, but she will play an important and useful role.

I'm sorry, I couldn't get past that. Good hearted people don't condone crucifying over a hundred people out of vengeance. Nor does a good hearted person allow a father to be forced to watch his own daughters tortured in front of him, to confess whatever she was trying to get him to confess.

[Mace Cooterian]

"She's brought death, destruction, destabilization and ruin to a horrifyingly large number of people. Oh but her heart was in the right place, so that doesn't really matter, can't hold it against her." Does no one comprehend how bloody insane that sounds? Some of the worst shit imaginable has been done by people who thought they were doing it for "good" reasons. Results matter, not intentions, and until people get this through their heads, this infinite logic pretzel will continue.

This description reminds me of another person with good intentions....Adolph Hitler.

[Uncle Stannis]

this is a big part of why I think Dany will end up going down a dark path... I just cant see Martin going with something as predictable as the down trodden femme fatale who lost her kingdom goes on a journey, learns important life lessons then flys back home on dragons to save the day... anybody could have guessed this after the first book.

Yep, way too predictable from an artistic point of view. And also a lot of people seem to get too caught up in the whole politics of that world and think she has a right to rule Westeros just because her daddy did. (When Stannis is obviously the rightful king :P) And I'm kinda getting sick of this whole Beyond Good and Evil idea that morals don't exist (and no I'm not religious), if Dany kills hundreds of thousands of people just to get a throne then its evil. That's why that word was invented!

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

This description reminds me of another person with good intentions....Adolph Hitler.

I don't want to Godwin this, but ... yeah. Not just him, everyone under him who legitimately thought they were making Germany a better, safer and stronger place. This is exactly what I mean when I say that good intentions do not equal a good or worthy person or a good or worthy cause.

I'm sorry, I couldn't get past that. Good hearted people don't condone crucifying over a hundred people out of vengeance. Nor does a good hearted person allow a father to be forced to watch his own daughters tortured in front of him, to confess whatever she was trying to get him to confess.

Bingo. While I do think that Dany is a fundamentally good person, no snow-white angel would condone crucifixion, burning people alive, the use of torture out of spite ...

[THE INDIGO]

I think Florina made the best point. A person can be an antagonist without being a one-dimensional, inhuman monster or a comic book mustache-twirler. I don't think that Dany is on the same level as the Others or, for that matter, her own dragons. Nonetheless, I still believe, based on her epiphany at the end of ADWD, that she's headed down a troublesome path ("dragons plant no trees"). And I certainly don't trust this iteration of Tyrion to lead her down a humane, wise and/or benevolent path. Tyrion at the beginning of the series, maybe. Not now. Characters aren't static. ETA: I actually agree that Dany "found herself" out in the wilderness. Problem there is that her "real self" is the fruitcake, fire-and-blood Targaryen conqueror, not the queen of puppies and figs.

The people I most sympathize with are in Westeros and for most of them, Dany's goals are in direct conflcit with theirs. So from that perspective, to me, she'd be an antagonist.

And I'm sorry but I don't give any brownie points for "a good heart" or "good intentions." This keeps getting brought up, particularly by the OP in various places, and to be brutally honest it is not worth shit. I don't give a flying you-know-what how good a person's intentions are. If they cause the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, you'd better effing believe I think they should be held responsible for it. I judge a person by what they do, the results of their choices and the impact, positive or negative, that they have. "She's brought death, destruction, destabilization and ruin to a horrifyingly large number of people. Oh but her heart was in the right place, so that doesn't really matter, can't hold it against her." Does no one comprehend how bloody insane that sounds?

Amen!

Dany has burn so many bridges. Yet she still tried to act like some Queen savior goddess who has a mothers heart and a rulers fist. I just want her to Kill and Burn and not care. She should burn GG, and all of the slave cities. and take their gold and ships!

[THE INDIGO]

He seemed to be snapping out of that as of his last chapter imo. He had that Lieutenant Dan moment where he was cursing the storm, and then later Penny seemed to be having a positive effect on him. He seemed like he was back to his old self by the end of ADWD, and in TWOW preview chapter as well (based on the reports, at least) *Crackpot Speculation* With all that said, I think his allegiance lies with Aegon and company, not Dany. He does not want to be laid at her feet, with his life hanging on the balance of her judgment. If there is any chance he can avoid Dany altogether by stealing a dragon, and then taking it back to Aegon I think he will jump at it. And since Vic is such a dumbass, I can actually see Tyrion outsmarting him and getting that dragon horn somehow. *Crackpot Speculation*

I like this so much that I want it to happen!

[Stannis Gotta Stan]

lol wot. tyrion played a huge role in the victory against Stannis. He murdered his ex lover because she was sleeping with his father and betrayed him at the trial. His father betrayed him and whored out the only girl who actually liked him. His revenge is well justified. Tyrion is a GOOD person, you must be delusional.

But on topic I feel Dany will play a huge role in the books. I doubt even Martin would build up Dany this long for her to not have substantial success in the coming book.

TYrion was very likable, hes sympathetic and hes not evil, but a good person? Not even remotely close to being a good person. I'm sorry a good person doesent murder people (What heinous crime did that Bard commit that warranted death?) Doesent order torture, doesent threaten to kill serving girls and slaves (or rape them).

Hes many things, but hes certainly not a good person, hes a gray character who has been getting more grey the past few books

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Amen!

Dany has burn so many bridges. Yet she still tried to act like some Queen savior goddess who has a mothers heart and a rulers fist. I just want her to Kill and Burn and not care. She should burn GG, and all of the slave cities. and take their gold and ships!

You know what? She can do that if she wants. It's within her power. She can burn as much shit as she wants, kill as many people as she wants, destroy as much as she wants. Have at it, Dany.

What she cannot do is do all of that and then insist that she's some great heroic savior figure or Your Mom.