Jon Snow: King in the North or King in the South?

[Fire Eater]

The third rider would nullify this point.
Jon is not the type to try and claim something like this.

If he gets the south to rally behind him it'll be through his accomplishments. Not his heritage.

Even given the copious amounts of foreshadowing? Jon would claim it if he thought the world depended on it, like the Other invasion as I've pointed out often.

Jon has strong King Arthur parallel. Arthur had to prove his heritage through a magical feat, and Jon may have to do the same.

[wildlingrose]

It's about him doing what is necessary to get the entire Realm united in the fight against the Others. He will go from Lord Commander of less than 1000 dregs of society, to Lord Commander of the 40 million people in Westeros.

Why Jon, though? He's already shunned one opportunity to gain political power. Why would he seize another? That's assuming he has another opportunity. Robb's will might never be revealed. And even so, he may turn that down in favor for his vows to the NW. The Northerners seem pretty keen on the NW keeping their vows. Who's to say that even if he assumes rule of the North per Robb's will that the current Northern lords won't execute him for being a traitor/desertion? I doubt they would, honestly, being that he's (assumed to be) Ned's son, but still, there's a chance that even the North would reject him because he shunned his vows for power.

And even if he is a Targ, he's still a bastard. What claim would he have to the Iron Throne? Why would his claim as a royal bastard be any stronger than Gendry, or Mya, or Edric, or another of Robert's bastards?

And if he's raised from the dead or something by Melisandre, who's going to want an undead king? I assume she'd raise him the same way that Thoros raised Beric, and if so, we know from Beric's experience that Jon won't really be the Jon that we know.

To me, Jon's story seems to be staying firmly rooted in the North, and at the Wall. I think any garrison of southern powers to defend against the Others will be temporary and he'll remain LC after the Others are defeated. If he doesn't permanently die. Personally, I'd love to see his story arc end not in him assuming a new identity based on true parentage, but finally truly accepting his current identity: Jon Snow. IDK, that's a beautiful arc to me.

[JaegrM]

:bang:

This is maddening.

Gonna have to agree to disagree.

[wildlingrose]

Well, I'll agree to that. :cheers:

[Fire Eater]

And even if he is a Targ, he's still a bastard. What claim would he have to the Iron Throne? Why would his claim as a royal bastard be any stronger than Gendry, or Mya, or Edric, or another of Robert's bastards?

And if he's raised from the dead or something by Melisandre, who's going to want an undead king? I assume she'd raise him the same way that Thoros raised Beric, and if so, we know from Beric's experience that Jon won't really be the Jon that we know.

Jon isn't a Targ bastard, if Rhaegar is as noble as he sounded then he would marry a girl rather than dishonor her through premarital sex. He knew there was precedent for it when Aegon I took two wives.

GRRM didn't confirm Jon as dead.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

If he's king of anything, it'll be the North (or whatever the boundaries of Robb's kingdom were).

[Budj]

I think the Iron Throne is going to be demolished. IF Westeros is united under one king I think the seat will be in the North. A looong winter is ahead of us.

[Scipio Africanus]

GRRM didn't confirm Jon as dead.

The app has listed a place of death for Jon.

Martin in an interview somewhere said, when questioned about Jon's demise, something like "oh you think he's dead do you?"

As for Jon's future, he'll be warged into a large dog for the near future. What happens after that is anyone's guess. However I suspect the Iron Throne will cease to exist, and the 7K really become 7K again.

[Varysfan]

I don't buy into the whole if he is resurrected he gets out of his vow thing.

However, I think the wall is coming down by the end of the books so I don't think it will become the main headquarters of the North.

Death is all that releases them from their vow, and Jon has died for sure in my opinion, although he will be resurrected, so he would be released from his vow, and if the wall is to come down will the others not have to be completely destroyed somehow?

[oprahnoodlemantra]

Even if Jon is Rhaegar's son, he's not an heir. The throne is the Baratheons by right of conquest. Regardless, Jon is a bastard and he can't inherit. Yeah, Rhaegar and Lyanna might have possibly been married, but good luck convincing the entire population of Westeros that Ned Stark's bastard is actually Rhaegar and Lyanna's trueborn son. If no one could convince the whole realm that Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen are bastards, how could anyone possibly convince the entire realm that Jon is trueborn?

No, if Jon is going to be on the throne it won't be because he's Rhaegar's son. That will just be icing on the cake. Readers overlook the power of the people in Westeros. I think that in the end, the people will choose their king and who better than the bastard that defended the realm against the Others?

[Caelestis]

Fuck Stark-/Northernness.

Those terms are seriously starting to grate on me. Is there some 'law' or some explicitly stated custom that forbids the Starks to interfere with anything south of the Neck? That they should all just stay north and stick their head in the snow? Rickard Stark, at least, didn't seem to think so with all the alliances he was forging with the rest of Westeros. A lot of people believe the Northerner's unwillingness to play along with the Game of Thrones in the south to be their strength, but I'm increasingly beginning to see it as a weakness: it is precisely because the Starks, like Eddard, are exceptionally honourable men that they should play the game, actively USING political power to act on behalf of the realm, rather than gaining power for their own sake, as practically all other contenders (except Stannis) are currently doing. In fact, I believe it is precisely their reluctance to participate and do what must be done for the good of the realm that has largely caused this crisis in the first place. It is a tricky line to walk, but it is exactly Eddard's fear of power and the responsibility he knows that comes with it that is a sign of why he would make such a good leader.

And that is partly why I believe Jon will sit the Iron Throne, if only briefly.

Not because he wants it, not because he's the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna (though it may play a role), but because he's needed. Many see Jon's journey so far as being about his identity as a member of the Night's Watch and that it's about keeping to his vows, when in fact the opposite is true. We constantly see Jon stretching or outright breaking his vows, culminating with his assassination for trying to march against the Boltons. If Jon was the ideal, honourable member of the Night's Watch, he wouldn't have gone along with the Wildlings, he wouldn't have slept with Ygritte, he wouldn't have let the Wildlings through the Wall, he wouldn't have advised Stannis and he certainly would've never even thought of breaking his vows to attack the Boltons.

Then why does Jon do all these things? For the good of the realm. He's doing it because he has learned that, no matter the scorn poured over him by men like Alliser Thorne or the resistance of men trying to stick to tradition (such as Bowen Marsh), sometimes exceptional measures are necessary to take the right course of action. Let's be honest here: will it matter that Jon stuck to his vows and whether or not he became a king if the Others invade and slaughter countless people? Of course not: because nothing is more important than human lives, certainly not pretty little words - not even if they're sworn to a Weirwood.

I feel like that this is what GRRM has been foreshadowing throughout Jon's time as a member of the Night's Watch and his constant testing, stretching and breaking of his vows. I think that, just like how Ned gave up his honour when he declared Joffrey the true king to save Sansa's life, Jon will forsake his honour by taking up a crown to gain the necessary power to unite everyone to face the Others. With the Night's Watch, I think GRRM is subverting another Fantasy trope, namely the 'ancient institution sworn to fight evil'-thing: in his gritty take on Fantasy, the 'ancient brotherhood' has become weak, forgetful, misguided and ultimately incapable of fighting the threat they're supposed to be fighting. If it means stopping the Others, is Jon ready to do whatever is necessary, like breaking his vows and becoming king? I'd say Jon has almost reached that point. And in so doing, Jon would prove himself worthier than any other candidate for any throne throughout ASoIaF: he doesn't wear a crown to satisfy his ego (Joffrey), to replace an old regime (Robert) or for justice (Stannis), or for his love of the idea of being king (Renly) or because he's the rightful heir (Dany/'Aegon'), not for his country's return to 'glory' (Balon) or his bannermen's demands (Robb) - Jon would become king because the people needed him to.

And if Jon does become the King in the North (as I'm almost certain he will), then it's only a relatively small step towards gaining the Iron Throne, assuming he's revealed as Rhaegar's heir and that he's seen as the best candidate for the job under the circumstances. Will Jon like it? No. Breaking his vows will be one of the hardest choices he'll ever make. But he'll do it and even if he sees the North as his homeland, I think Jon will reign in the south if that is the duty demanded of him.

[Ned's Epic Beard]

Why people keep saying that in order to save the realm, Jon or any other stark needs to sit on iron throne? North has guarded the wall since forever. Why do they need south? Starks and people in KL are incompatible due to corruption. There is no way around it.

[BlackStark]

Serious question here: why do you believe that Jon (and Jon alone) is uniquely qualified to lead the realm against the Others...either as King in the North or as King in the South?

[UnFit Finlay]

Why people keep saying that in order to save the realm, Jon or any other stark needs to sit on iron throne? North has guarded the wall since forever. Why do they need south? Starks and people in KL are incompatible due to corruption. There is no way around it.

I believe the idea is that it's going to take the combined strength of the realm in order to defeat the Others and put an end to the long winter. The only person who can make that happen is the King on the Iron Throne.

Who in King's Landing is corrupt that would conceivably survive Jon taking over? He's not likely to appoint Cersei or Littlefinger to the small council is he?

My only real issue with Jon taking either Crown is that it means Stannis will have to die (or bend the knee) first. If the Northern Lords turn their cloaks on "The King Who Cared" then they're no better than Freys.

[Fire and Lemoncakes]

I suppose that could be GRRM's trollish vision:

King Jon the Oathbreaker, kinslayer Tyrion as Hand and Jaime can remain chief of the kingsguard. All the corruption of the realm united.

[Caelestis]

Serious question here: why do you believe that Jon (and Jon alone) is uniquely qualified to lead the realm against the Others...either as King in the North or as King in the South?

In my opinion, it has more to do with how I'm seeing the series progress and Jon probably being in the right place at the right time when shit finally goes down (or wrong place, depending on how you look at it), rather than him being truly the 'one and only hero to save the world'.

The Lannister/Tyrell regime is on the verge of collapse (thanks to Varys paving the way for Aegon) and even if they did remain in power (something I doubt, because for all GRRM's twists, the Lannisters/Tyrells have had their time in the sun long enough), neither one will give a shit about anyone talking about mythical ice demons taking over the world until it stares them in the right face and it's too late. Aegon is set to become a rising star, but regardless of whether he wins or loses quickly, he'll have Dany to contend with, given that GRRM has practically confirmed that those two are going to butt heads in a second Dance of the Dragons. Dany is the only one with the potential leadership qualities, empathy for others and experiences with the supernatural to seriously think of acting against the Others should things start happening in the North, but I suspect GRRM is again going to twist expectations: rather than Dany being hailed as the saviour of Westeros with her dragons, there are increasing hints that she'll be incredibly unpopular purely because of how she'll be perceived - the Mad Queen's kin-slaying daughter, raised in barbaric lands, come to usurp her nephew's rightful throne and attacking Westeros with evil dragons, an army of eunuchs, mercenary companies, Ironborn, Dothraki, and advised by exiles and a kin(g)-slaying dwarf. WE know it's far more complicated than that, but you can see how Dany has a major PR problem before she's even set foot on Westeros.

On the other hand, we have Jon, devoted to protecting the realm, and who is possibly on the verge of being crowned King in the North (go search for Apple Martini's excellent Northern Conspiracy-thread for more info, if you haven't already), respected in the North and by the Wildlings. Simply put: if on top of all of this, Jon is revealed as having a claim to the Iron Throne through Rhaegar, he will be the ideal figure to rally behind.

Finally, Jon does have greater qualities compared to many other rulers throughout the series:

- he knows how to work together with people he normally might not like (see him befriending his fellow recruits in AGoT)

- recognises talents (Sam)

- is even willing to forgive people he hates (giving Janos Slynt a chance - a.k.a. the guy that betrayed his father and was working for Cersei)

- but also administers hard justice when someone pushes him too far (again, Janos Slynt),

- is willing to lie, cheat and deceive when necessary (the Wildling situation, switching the babies)

- has a lord's education and clear leadership potential (hence Lord Commander Mormont grooming him for command)

- has skill in battle (held the Wall against tens of thousands of Wildlings with extremely limited resources)

- has a clear eye for politics and war (making alliance with the Wildlings but still taking hostages; his advice to Stannis, which has proven very sound)

- is not unfeeling, but is still almost incorruptable (trying to stick to his vows as best as possible; turning down Stannis' offer for Winterfell)

- and finally, is actually well-liked as a person and seems to have a certain charisma, based on his rise in the Night's Watch and respect from Stannis and the Wildlings.

Put all these factors togethers and it seems almost inevitable that Jon will become king.

[Lord Bresteil of the North]

That's why I said "or whatever remains of The Wall" because I see North of The Wall joining The Kingdom of The North.

And Jon wouldn't want to steal one of "his Siblings" seat as Lord of WF once they're revealed to be alive.

They're repairing the other castles on the wall, so their will be something left even if The Wall falls.

Where does the 700 ft high mass of ice go. It would probably crush the castles.

[King of Winters]

Even if Jon is Rhaegar's son, he's not an heir. The throne is the Baratheons by right of conquest. Regardless, Jon is a bastard and he can't inherit. Yeah, Rhaegar and Lyanna might have possibly been married, but good luck convincing the entire population of Westeros that Ned Stark's bastard is actually Rhaegar and Lyanna's trueborn son. If no one could convince the whole realm that Joffrey, Myrcella, and Tommen are bastards, how could anyone possibly convince the entire realm that Jon is trueborn?

No, if Jon is going to be on the throne it won't be because he's Rhaegar's son. That will just be icing on the cake. Readers overlook the power of the people in Westeros. I think that in the end, the people will choose their king and who better than the bastard that defended the realm against the Others?

I think the WHOLE realm knew about the incest and believed it but the other Kingdoms kept their mouths shut as if they made it aware that they believed the incest then Cersei would condemn them as traitors to the Realm and stripe them of their titles.

And if someone who is well respected told the Realm about Jon's real parents, the Realm may believe them, or if Howland Reed told someone, maybe on his death bed, that might have more of a chance of people believing the theory

[StarkDragon]

Despite his genetics, Jon Snow honors Ned Stark as his father. And I see Ned's resistance to take the Iron Throne, constantly mentioned in AGOT, as foreshadowing Jon making a similar decision.

Could just be me.

[The Fury]

King beyond the wall.