A King in Hiding: Adding It All Up

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

After the Theon fiasco I can see him doing it just to cover all the bases. Either way, once I get my hands on the will I'll be sure to let you know

Robb, from his perspective, is damn sure that Bran, Rickon and Arya are dead. Why would he make concessions in his will for dead people?

[MasterJack]

Robb, from his perspective, is damn sure that Bran, Rickon and Arya are dead. Why would he make concessions in his will for dead people?

Anyway who cares, this is Jon we are talking about, if Rickon or Bran ever show up, he will just act as a regent until they are old enough and give em the North back.

[Techelles]

After the Theon fiasco I can see him doing it just to cover all the bases. Either way, once I get my hands on the will I'll be sure to let you know

What bases? He thinks Bran, Rickon, and Arya are dead, he disinherits Sansa, and he has no child of his own. There is no one left, which is why he feels the need to name an heir in the first place. That's the only base he's covering.

There's also the fact that Jon is the only one old enough to be capable of taking Robb's place as a leader, so he's probably the one Robb would want in power even if he thought (which he didn't) that there was some chance Bran and Rickon were alive.

[lady m]

Robb, from his perspective, is damn sure that Bran, Rickon and Arya are dead. Why would he make concessions in his will for dead people?

Also, I would add, that a simple and straightforward will is the type most desired. Especially one as important as this. Codicils and add-ons don't just make them more complicated, they often make them unworkable. If you're honestly worried about maintaining clear line of succession then your will document will be as simple and straightforward as is possible.

[The Fallen]

` Fair enough. And if Jon were to die?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Also, I would add, that a simple and straightforward will is the type most desired. Especially one as important as this. Codicils and add-ons don't just make them more complicated, they often make them unworkable. If you're honestly worried about maintaining clear line of succession then your will document will be as simple and straightforward as is possible.

Yes, definitely agree. When we do see the will, I bet it's very straightforward. "I, Robb Stark, King of the North and of the Trident, do legitimize Jon Snow as Jon Stark and name him my heir, blah blah blah." Boom. Done.

I highly doubt it's:

"... I'm pretty sure my siblings are dead but lol just in case, Jon's only king if they're actually dead even if I have no reason to think they're alive."

` Fair enough. And if Jon were to die?

Then that's probably where the Royce cousins and/or the Karstarks come in. He can unambiguously name Jon his immediate heir while also planning ahead of Jon.

[The Fallen]

` Actually, I was thinking more like, "In the absence of my legitimate heirs I hereby legitimize Jon Snow as Jon Stark and yada yada yada..." He he he, ha ha ha

[lady m]

Hopefully if he dies he will know that Rickon at least is alive, and thus will be able to name him his heir, unless Robb and Jeyne have a child. If he dies without knowing Rickon lives, and Robb has no child, well I think Wyman Manderly gives us the answer. The Northern Lords proclaim Rickon The Lord of Winterfell, and last heir to Eddard Starl.

[The Fallen]

Hopefully if he dies he will know that Rickon at least is alive, and thus will be able to name him his heir, unless Robb and Jeyne have a child. If he dies without knowing Rickon lives, and Robb has no child, well I think Wyman Manderly gives us the answer. The Northern Lords proclaim Rickon The Lord of Winterfell, and last heir to Eddard Starl.

Sounds pretty complicated to me, but what would lil ole me know of the ways of kings.

[Buried Treasure]

The argument that the Will would get acted on is always that Robb's loyal lords would want to do what he wanted even after his death. In the absence of any other heirs what Robb wanted was clearly what he wrote in the Will. But if, say, Rickon turns up safe and alive wouldn't common sense tell Robb loyal lords that he would have wanted his little brother to inherit - and wouldn't they chose to ignore the Will, putting it to one side and making it once again the emergency option in case Rickon dies without heirs.

Hell, even with Sansa disinherited, if she returns to the North and they get word she is widowed wouldn't common sense tell Robb's loyalists that Robb's will (as opposed to his Will) would be for her to get reinstated.

Without loyalists who want to enforce the Will it is only so many words on a piece of paper. Everything I know about the lords of the north makes me think they would want to fulfill the spirit of what Robb would have wanted, rather than the letter of a beggars choice he made when he was grievously misinformed about deaths of his heirs.

[Fire Eater]

No, Ned is talking about Oswell Whent, a member of the Kingsguard that was at the tower of joy, the black bat is the sigil of house Whent.

I know it's the sigil of House Whent, but the display of his house's sigil on his helm could be a clue for what happened at the event. Think Chekov's gun.

[Uncia]

LC can send any brother for a mission anywhere in the realm, why couldn't he send himself ? He is LC, he goes where he wants to go.

I don't see Jon taking lands and crowns, but as the hero (de facto king) protecting the realm of men against Ice and Fire, against Others and Dragons... mediating in Bran vs Dany (or killing them both)... that is the core of his vows, protecting the realm. He does not have to be physically at the Wall (which might fall anyway)

Either he will be seated on the IT against his will (elected and reluctant at first) or he will destroy the IT...

But somehow i see him landing on the IT... how else is Margeary going to be THE Queen ? I see him bedding her, getting her with child, THEN marrying her... to save her honor. (plus, i'd like to see the actress in GoT to stick around :cool4: )

Oh and i can't wait for him to bring back Arya in the real world - he is the only anchor left in her life (via Needle). She might get back to her senses when she is finally assigned to kill him.

[The Fallen]

The argument that the Will would get acted on is always that Robb's loyal lords would want to do what he wanted even after his death. In the absence of any other heirs what Robb wanted was clearly what he wrote in the Will. But if, say, Rickon turns up safe and alive wouldn't common sense tell Robb loyal lords that he would have wanted his little brother to inherit - and wouldn't they chose to ignore the Will, putting it to one side and making it once again the emergency option in case Rickon dies without heirs.

Hell, even with Sansa disinherited, if she returns to the North and they get word she is widowed wouldn't common sense tell Robb's loyalists that Robb's will (as opposed to his Will) would be for her to get reinstated.

Without loyalists who want to enforce the Will it is only so many words on a piece of paper. Everything I know about the lords of the north makes me think they would want to fulfill the spirit of what Robb would have wanted, rather than the letter of a beggars choice he made when he was grievously misinformed about deaths of his heirs.

I agree. Legitimized bastards usually come after their true-born brothers. Rickon is already in the picture before the will has been even made public. And I think even Jon himself would rally support for Rickon.

[Ser Kneeler]

Wow, the "hiding under the Snow" Robert quote got me thinking... suppose all along Jon is the true Targaryen heir to the throne... if these little Easter Eggs concerning Snow = King (not the same as Snow = tPtwP, right) then that would mean:

A son comes before an Aunt, right? So that would mean the the succession would be: Aegon, JS, Dany.

THofD as Dany, JS, Aegon or Tyrion: I always thought Tyrion fit in much better with Dany & JS. The entire saga is basically their story.

But if Jon Snow were the true king hiding under the Snow, and the third head is Tyrion, then that would mean

Aegon is gonna have to die. :frown5:

But... I thought he was dead already because it's been a year since I read the last book, and I had him and Quentyn mixed up before I got back o this forum.

[The guy from the Vale]

If Jon is already the king hiding under the snow by AGoT (and I think he is), that means Aegon is also dead by that time. There's lots of speculation who Young Griff really is, but the signs rather point in two (reconcilable) other directions than him being Aegon, son of Rhaegar. Instead, there's loads of evidence he's a Blackfyre, Illyrio's son, or even both.

[Fire Eater]

[Val speaking to Jon] "And keep him away from the red woman. She knows who he is. She sees things' in her fires"

Arya, he thought hoping it was so. "Ashes and cinders."

"Kings and dragons."

I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow.

Val states Mel sees kings and dragons in her fires; it fits with what Mel has been seeing in her flames as Jon fits both descriptions.

[Ser Kneeler]

Instead, there's loads of evidence he's a Blackfyre, Illyrio's son, or even both.

quotes from the books?

[bemused]

[Val speaking to Jon] "And keep him away from the red woman. She knows who he is. She sees things' in her fires"

Arya, he thought hoping it was so. "Ashes and cinders."

"Kings and dragons."

I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow.

Val states Mel sees kings and dragons in her fires, it fits with what Mel has been seeing in her flames as Jon fits both descriptions.

Exactly!

[The guy from the Vale]

quotes from the books?

Aegon as fake:

ACoK, Daenerys IV: "A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd."

ACoK, Daenerys V: Explanation of the above vision: It's a mummer's dragon, i.e. a fake dragon. Someone will pose as a Targ who isn't. There's also a conenction to Varys (the mummer) here.

ADwD, Daenerys II: "No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning.

Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal." At this time, Young Griff is still heading for Dany, and he's the only one going to her who isn't mentioned otherwise.

Aegon as a Blackfyre:

AFfC, Brienne VII: "...He forged a new sign for the yard, a three-headed dragon of black iron that he hung from a wooden post. The beast was so big it had to be made in a dozen pieces, joined with rope and wire. When the wind blew it would clank and clatter, so the inn became known far and wide as the Clanking Dragon."

"Is the dragon sign still there?" asked Podrick.

"No," said Septon Meribald. "When the smith's son was an old man, a bastard son of the fourth Aegon rose up in rebellion against his trueborn brother and took for his sigil a black dragon. These lands belonged to Lord Darry then, and his lordship was fiercely loyal to the king. The sign of the black iron dragon made him wroth, so he cut down the post, hacked the sign to pieces, and cast them into the river. One of the dragon's heads washed up on the Quiet Isle many years later, though by that time it was red with rust." Interpretation: A Blackfyre will return across the water(=sea), while posing as a red dragon (i.e., a Targaryen).

ADwD, Tyrion III: Illyrio: "The Blackfyres have been extinguished in the male line" - Curious. What about a female line? Also, how does Illyrio know about this factoid if it's unknown in Westeros?

ADwD, Tyrion III: Illyrio: "Black or red, a dragon is still a dragon." Illyrio doesn't see passing off Aegon as a Targaryen as a fraud, since the Blackfyres see themselves as the real Targs.

ADwD, TRyion III: Illyrio: "Some contracts are writ in blood" when answering the question why the Golden Company would follow Aegon. But the Golden Company was founded to fight against the Targaryens and to seat a Blackfyre on the Iron Throne. The onyl contract writ in blood that would count for this particular mercenary company... would be one that seated a Blackfyre on the Throne.

On a Meta-Level also The Mystery Knight: Daemon II Blackfyre dyes his hair blue and is accompanied by a gay man. This is a mirror image of blue-haired Young Griff accompanied by gay Connington.

Aegon as Illyrio's son:

ADwD, Tyrion I-III. Various informations by Illyrio don't match up. Illyrio says he was very poor in his youth, but has a statue of himself in his young years. How would he have paid for that? Unless there was a model later who looked much like Illyrio - and indeed the description of Young Griff that we get matches up with the description of the statue. Illyrio also says his second wife died of greyscale, but he has her hands pickled although the hands are among the first parts of the body to fall victim to the disease. Did Serra really die of the greyscale - or is he hiding her cause of death? There's also Illyrio claiming to never have had children, but he does have children's clothes in his home, and he is also excessively fond of Aegon, to the degree that he wants to see him and give him candies. Also, the question what is in there for Illyrio? Why does he care about Westeros at all?

Also, Illyrio is no Targ supporter, and in particular, doesn't support Dany.

AGoT Daenerys I: Dany notes Illyrio has ulterior motives behind helping Viserys and her. They have been at his place for half a year.

ADwD, Tyrion III: Illyrio states he expected Dany to die in the Dothraki sea. Why send her there if Viserys and her are Aegon's heirs? Why bet everything on Aegon? And why the massively disproportionate investment in Aegon (18 years of support as opposed to half a year for Viserys and Dany...) Illyrio and Varys don't support the Targs. They only support Aegon.

[King of Winters]

Aegon as fake:

ACoK, Daenerys IV: "A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd."

ACoK, Daenerys V: Explanation of the above vision: It's a mummer's dragon, i.e. a fake dragon. Someone will pose as a Targ who isn't. There's also a conenction to Varys (the mummer) here.

ADwD, Daenerys II: "No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning.

Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal." At this time, Young Griff is still heading for Dany, and he's the only one going to her who isn't mentioned otherwise.

Aegon as a Blackfyre:

AFfC, Brienne VII: "...He forged a new sign for the yard, a three-headed dragon of black iron that he hung from a wooden post. The beast was so big it had to be made in a dozen pieces, joined with rope and wire. When the wind blew it would clank and clatter, so the inn became known far and wide as the Clanking Dragon."

"Is the dragon sign still there?" asked Podrick.

"No," said Septon Meribald. "When the smith's son was an old man, a bastard son of the fourth Aegon rose up in rebellion against his trueborn brother and took for his sigil a black dragon. These lands belonged to Lord Darry then, and his lordship was fiercely loyal to the king. The sign of the black iron dragon made him wroth, so he cut down the post, hacked the sign to pieces, and cast them into the river. One of the dragon's heads washed up on the Quiet Isle many years later, though by that time it was red with rust." Interpretation: A Blackfyre will return across the water(=sea), while posing as a red dragon (i.e., a Targaryen).

ADwD, Tyrion III: Illyrio: "The Blackfyres have been extinguished in the male line" - Curious. What about a female line? Also, how does Illyrio know about this factoid if it's unknown in Westeros?

ADwD, Tyrion III: Illyrio: "Black or red, a dragon is still a dragon." Illyrio doesn't see passing off Aegon as a Targaryen as a fraud, since the Blackfyres see themselves as the real Targs.

ADwD, TRyion III: Illyrio: "Some contracts are writ in blood" when answering the question why the Golden Company would follow Aegon. But the Golden Company was founded to fight against the Targaryens and to seat a Blackfyre on the Iron Throne. The onyl contract writ in blood that would count for this particular mercenary company... would be one that seated a Blackfyre on the Throne.

On a Meta-Level also The Mystery Knight: Daemon II Blackfyre dyes his hair blue and is accompanied by a gay man. This is a mirror image of blue-haired Young Griff accompanied by gay Connington.

Aegon as Illyrio's son:

ADwD, Tyrion I-III. Various informations by Illyrio don't match up. Illyrio says he was very poor in his youth, but has a statue of himself in his young years. How would he have paid for that? Unless there was a model later who looked much like Illyrio - and indeed the description of Young Griff that we get matches up with the description of the statue. Illyrio also says his second wife died of greyscale, but he has her hands pickled although the hands are among the first parts of the body to fall victim to the disease. Did Serra really die of the greyscale - or is he hiding her cause of death? There's also Illyrio claiming to never have had children, but he does have children's clothes in his home, and he is also excessively fond of Aegon, to the degree that he wants to see him and give him candies. Also, the question what is in there for Illyrio? Why does he care about Westeros at all?

Also, Illyrio is no Targ supporter, and in particular, doesn't support Dany.

AGoT Daenerys I: Dany notes Illyrio has ulterior motives behind helping Viserys and her. They have been at his place for half a year.

ADwD, Tyrion III: Illyrio states he expected Dany to die in the Dothraki sea. Why send her there if Viserys and her are Aegon's heirs? Why bet everything on Aegon? And why the massively disproportionate investment in Aegon (18 years of support as opposed to half a year for Viserys and Dany...) Illyrio and Varys don't support the Targs. They only support Aegon.

:agree: This makes me believe Aegon is a Blackfyre even more now.