A King in Hiding: Adding It All Up

[Boy and Girl Wadish]

Wow, the "hiding under the Snow" Robert quote got me thinking... suppose all along Jon is the true Targaryen heir to the throne... if these little Easter Eggs concerning Snow = King (not the same as Snow = tPtwP, right) then that would mean:

A son comes before an Aunt, right? So that would mean the the succession would be: Aegon, JS, Dany.

THofD as Dany, JS, Aegon or Tyrion: I always thought Tyrion fit in much better with Dany & JS. The entire saga is basically their story.

But if Jon Snow were the true king hiding under the Snow, and the third head is Tyrion, then that would mean

Aegon is gonna have to die. :frown5:

But... I thought he was dead already because it's been a year since I read the last book, and I had him and Quentyn mixed up before I got back o this forum.

Is Jon younger than Aegon? Or roughly the same age?

[King of Winters]

Is Jon younger than Aegon? Or roughly the same age?

Jon is younger than Aegon (the real Aegon)

[The guy from the Vale]

Is Jon younger than Aegon? Or roughly the same age?

Since Rhaegar and Lyanna only eloped after Aegon's birth, Jon is at least nine months, and more likely a year, younger than the real Aegon would be if he was alive. :crying:

[Ghost's Shadow]

*snip*

You're beyond awesome for putting this together. Thank you!

[Lady Arya's Song]

This is so good. I do not think anyone has posted it yet on this thread. If so forgive

Frozen Fire..is awesome with the insight into below

FrozenFire3, on 07 April 2013 - 09:09 AM,

said: I'm not sure if the following has already been brought up... Re-reading ASoS, I came acorss a passage with, IMHO, a very strong R+L=J allegoric subtext.

I don't know how I could have missed it the first time, considering my Classical education :dunce: The bulb lit up reading a name, Tristifer, that in Latin means 'he who carries sadness'.

The scene takes place in Oldstones, at the presence of Robb, Cat and a... sepulcher where king Tristifer is buried.

I'll highlight a few words/passages and then add a few annotations.

Yet in the center of what once would have been the castle's yard, a great carved sepulcher still rested, half hidden in waist-high brown grass amongst a stand of ash. The lid of the sepulcher had been carved into a likeness of the man whose bones lay beneath, but the rain and the wind had done their work. The king had worn a beard, they could see, but otherwise his face was smooth and featurless, with only vague suggestions of a mouth, a nose, eyes, and the crown about the temples. His hands folded over the shaft of a stone warhammer that lay upon his chest. Once the warhammer would have been carved with runes that told its name and history, but all that the centuries had worn away. The stone itself was cracked and crumbling at the corners, discolored here and there by spreading white splotches of lichen, while wild roses crept up over the king's feet almost to his chest.

[...]

She had not forgotten; she had not wanted to look at it, yet there it was. "A Snow is not a Stark."

[...]

Grey Wind leapt up atop King Tristifer's crypt, his teeth bared.

The first simplest metaphor is the one related to a story buried or better half-hidden... in a crypt.

Brown (Stark/Lyanna's hair colouring) grass spreads amongst ash (Targaryen/Rhaegar's one).

He who carries sadness (Rhaegar), rests with a stone hammer upon his chest (Robert's).

Wild roses (Lyanna) creeps up over the king's feet almost to his chest (they touch his heart).

This tale immediately precedes Robb and Cat discussion about Jon's legitimization, including a few Targaryen's history references.

It takes place in Oldstones where Jenny came from. We know that she was friends with a woods witch (the Ghost of High Heart) who prophesied that The Prince That Was Promised would be born from the line of Aerys and Rhaella. We also know that Duncan Targaryen, son of Aegon V, gave up his crown for Jenny. A crown is visible on the sepulcher about the temples of a king whose features are undefinied. Ergo we do not know his face. Yet. But a direwolf stands atop like a fierce and proud sigil

I absolutely loved this by Frozen Fire. I had been looking at that for ages trying to figure it out. Another beautifully written portion of the series to prove that Jon Snow is a king in hiding.

[Winterfellian]

Great post

I love this! Definitively impressed :bowdown:

[Fire Eater]

This is so good. I do not think anyone has posted it yet on this thread. If so forgive

Frozen Fire..is awesome with the insight into below

FrozenFire3, on 07 April 2013 - 09:09 AM,

said: I'm not sure if the following has already been brought up... Re-reading ASoS, I came acorss a passage with, IMHO, a very strong R+L=J allegoric subtext.

I don't know how I could have missed it the first time, considering my Classical education :dunce: The bulb lit up reading a name, Tristifer, that in Latin means 'he who carries sadness'.

The scene takes place in Oldstones, at the presence of Robb, Cat and a... sepulcher where king Tristifer is buried.

I'll highlight a few words/passages and then add a few annotations.

Yet in the center of what once would have been the castle's yard, a great carved sepulcher still rested, half hidden in waist-high brown grass amongst a stand of ash. The lid of the sepulcher had been carved into a likeness of the man whose bones lay beneath, but the rain and the wind had done their work. The king had worn a beard, they could see, but otherwise his face was smooth and featurless, with only vague suggestions of a mouth, a nose, eyes, and the crown about the temples. His hands folded over the shaft of a stone warhammer that lay upon his chest. Once the warhammer would have been carved with runes that told its name and history, but all that the centuries had worn away. The stone itself was cracked and crumbling at the corners, discolored here and there by spreading white splotches of lichen, while wild roses crept up over the king's feet almost to his chest.

[...]

She had not forgotten; she had not wanted to look at it, yet there it was. "A Snow is not a Stark."

[...]

Grey Wind leapt up atop King Tristifer's crypt, his teeth bared.

The first simplest metaphor is the one related to a story buried or better half-hidden... in a crypt.

Brown (Stark/Lyanna's hair colouring) grass spreads amongst ash (Targaryen/Rhaegar's one).

He who carries sadness (Rhaegar), rests with a stone hammer upon his chest (Robert's).

Wild roses (Lyanna) creeps up over the king's feet almost to his chest (they touch his heart).

This tale immediately precedes Robb and Cat discussion about Jon's legitimization, including a few Targaryen's history references.

It takes place in Oldstones where Jenny came from. We know that she was friends with a woods witch (the Ghost of High Heart) who prophesied that The Prince That Was Promised would be born from the line of Aerys and Rhaella. We also know that Duncan Targaryen, son of Aegon V, gave up his crown for Jenny. A crown is visible on the sepulcher about the temples of a king whose features are undefinied. Ergo we do not know his face. Yet. But a direwolf stands atop like a fierce and proud sigil

I absolutely loved this by Frozen Fire. I had been looking at that for ages trying to figure it out. Another beautifully written portion of the series to prove that Jon Snow is a king in hiding.

Thanks for that post. That was an excellent and impressive catch that I completely missed!

[Ser Kneeler]

Very convincing... but....

How can he be a Blackfyre and Illyrio's at the same time?

And...

Connington gay? Ugh. I'm so stupid.

Aegon as fake:

ACoK, Daenerys IV: "A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd."

ACoK, Daenerys V: Explanation of the above vision: It's a mummer's dragon, i.e. a fake dragon. Someone will pose as a Targ who isn't. There's also a conenction to Varys (the mummer) here.

ADwD, Daenerys II: "No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning.

Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal." At this time, Young Griff is still heading for Dany, and he's the only one going to her who isn't mentioned otherwise.

Aegon as a Blackfyre:

AFfC, Brienne VII: "...He forged a new sign for the yard, a three-headed dragon of black iron that he hung from a wooden post. The beast was so big it had to be made in a dozen pieces, joined with rope and wire. When the wind blew it would clank and clatter, so the inn became known far and wide as the Clanking Dragon."

"Is the dragon sign still there?" asked Podrick.

"No," said Septon Meribald. "When the smith's son was an old man, a bastard son of the fourth Aegon rose up in rebellion against his trueborn brother and took for his sigil a black dragon. These lands belonged to Lord Darry then, and his lordship was fiercely loyal to the king. The sign of the black iron dragon made him wroth, so he cut down the post, hacked the sign to pieces, and cast them into the river. One of the dragon's heads washed up on the Quiet Isle many years later, though by that time it was red with rust." Interpretation: A Blackfyre will return across the water(=sea), while posing as a red dragon (i.e., a Targaryen).

ADwD, Tyrion III: Illyrio: "The Blackfyres have been extinguished in the male line" - Curious. What about a female line? Also, how does Illyrio know about this factoid if it's unknown in Westeros?

ADwD, Tyrion III: Illyrio: "Black or red, a dragon is still a dragon." Illyrio doesn't see passing off Aegon as a Targaryen as a fraud, since the Blackfyres see themselves as the real Targs.

ADwD, TRyion III: Illyrio: "Some contracts are writ in blood" when answering the question why the Golden Company would follow Aegon. But the Golden Company was founded to fight against the Targaryens and to seat a Blackfyre on the Iron Throne. The onyl contract writ in blood that would count for this particular mercenary company... would be one that seated a Blackfyre on the Throne.

On a Meta-Level also The Mystery Knight: Daemon II Blackfyre dyes his hair blue and is accompanied by a gay man. This is a mirror image of blue-haired Young Griff accompanied by gay Connington.

Aegon as Illyrio's son:

ADwD, Tyrion I-III. Various informations by Illyrio don't match up. Illyrio says he was very poor in his youth, but has a statue of himself in his young years. How would he have paid for that? Unless there was a model later who looked much like Illyrio - and indeed the description of Young Griff that we get matches up with the description of the statue. Illyrio also says his second wife died of greyscale, but he has her hands pickled although the hands are among the first parts of the body to fall victim to the disease. Did Serra really die of the greyscale - or is he hiding her cause of death? There's also Illyrio claiming to never have had children, but he does have children's clothes in his home, and he is also excessively fond of Aegon, to the degree that he wants to see him and give him candies. Also, the question what is in there for Illyrio? Why does he care about Westeros at all?

Also, Illyrio is no Targ supporter, and in particular, doesn't support Dany.

AGoT Daenerys I: Dany notes Illyrio has ulterior motives behind helping Viserys and her. They have been at his place for half a year.

ADwD, Tyrion III: Illyrio states he expected Dany to die in the Dothraki sea. Why send her there if Viserys and her are Aegon's heirs? Why bet everything on Aegon? And why the massively disproportionate investment in Aegon (18 years of support as opposed to half a year for Viserys and Dany...) Illyrio and Varys don't support the Targs. They only support Aegon.

[MasterJack]

Very convincing... but....

How can he be a Blackfyre and Illyrio's at the same time?

The male line is extinct and but the female line might be alive aka Illyrio's wife.

[Fire Eater]

The male line is extinct and but the female line might be alive aka Illyrio's wife.

Plus, the war is based on the War of the Rises with historical counterparts. If you believe Aegon to be the historical counterpart to Henry VII Tudor, than it must be acknowledged that Henry was descended from the Lancaster bastard through his mother's side. So Aegon would be descended through his mother's side from a Targaryen bastard, Daemon Blackfyre.

[nothatso]

Plus, the war is based on the War of the Rises with historical counterparts. If you believe Aegon to be the historical counterpart to Henry VII Tudor, than it must be acknowledged that Henry was descended from the Lancaster bastard through his mother's side. So Aegon would be descended through his mother's side from a Targaryen bastard, Daemon Blackfyre.

I'd say Aegon's story more closely resembles that of Perkin Warbeck than Henry VII. e.g. Perkin and Aegon both claimed to be one of two siblings (and members of a royal family) presumed murdered in a tower, and were allegedly snuck across the sea and raised in secret before invading with a foreign army. Conversely Henry spent much of his childhood in Wales before fleeing across the sea to Brittany and France where he was pursued by the Yorkists who offered a reward for his capture, so obviously they knew he was there. If his story follows a similar path to that of Perkin Warbeck then he may die without readers ever seeing proof of who he actually is one way or the other.

[bemused]

I love the bit about Tristifer's crypt.

[The guy from the Vale]

Very convincing... but....

How can he be a Blackfyre and Illyrio's at the same time?

And...

Connington gay? Ugh. I'm so stupid.

As MasterJack states, the theory assumes that Illyrio's second wife Serra was a Blackfyre. There are some connections to Varys there, too, to the extent that Serra and Varys most probably were siblings. The thing with Illyrio's knowledge about a female branch of the Blackfyres still being alive fits this pretty well.

And yes, Connington is gay. This link pretty much nails it.

[Boy and Girl Wadish]

Since Rhaegar and Lyanna only eloped after Aegon's birth, Jon is at least nine months, and more likely a year, younger than the real Aegon would be if he was alive. :crying:

Thanks for the info :) By ADWD I assume Jon's around sixteen or fifteen and Dany roughly the same age. Does anyone remember how old Young Griff was described to be? Because if he is wayy older than Jon and Dany then it's highly indicative that he is indeed not Aegon.

[King of Winters]

Thanks for the info :) By ADWD I assume Jon's around sixteen or fifteen and Dany roughly the same age. Does anyone remember how old Young Griff was described to be? Because if he is wayy older than Jon and Dany then it's highly indicative that he is indeed not Aegon.

Tyrion estimates Young Griff to be 15-16 years old.

[The guy from the Vale]

Tyrion estimates Young Griff to be 15-16 years old.

Yep, it's interesting that Tyrion estimates Young Griff to be about as old as Jon, not older than him.

Of course, Tyrion is a bad judge of age, so I wouldn't put too much stock into that.

[King of Winters]

Yep, it's interesting that Tyrion estimates Young Griff to be about as old as Jon, not older than him.

Of course, Tyrion is a bad judge of age, so I wouldn't put too much stock into that.

How old was Jon around this time?

[The guy from the Vale]

Jon is 16 during ADwD.

Oh, FrozenFire found another one!

You were the one should have been king' date=' you or... [b']Jon.

[Boy and Girl Wadish]

Yep, it's interesting that Tyrion estimates Young Griff to be about as old as Jon, not older than him.

Of course, Tyrion is a bad judge of age, so I wouldn't put too much stock into that.

Why is Tyrion a bad judge of age? I believe his observing and deduction skills are quite impressive.

[The guy from the Vale]

Why is Tyrion a bad judge of age? I believe his observing and deduction skills are quite impressive.

Yes they are, but he's just not used to judging children's ages. We know he misjudges Jon's age by quite a few years, for example.