The Great Northern Conspiracy, part 3

[A Crow Come Over]

OK...I'm throwing this out there. Does the lack of the will being on the show worry anybody about the status of TGNC in the books?

They can throw that in whenever they want, they decided to throw the warging of Hodor and Orell's "second life" in one episode.

[maidenandwarrior]

I agree, the show is not the books. The only time I sat up and went "Huh?" was when Arya as Nan said she was from Barrowton and served Lady Dustin. I went over the implications of that for a while.

I'd just like to briefly add that one of the other suspicious things that Lady Dustin does is when she is talking about Lord Dustin's bones, she doesn't mention Mark Ryswell. He also died at the TOJ with Lord Dustin. We have no idea if Mark was her cousin, brother, uncle, distant kinsman...but you would think it would come up.

[A Crow Come Over]

I agree, the show is not the books. The only time I sat up and went "Huh?" was when Arya as Nan said she was from Barrowton and served Lady Dustin. I went over the implications of that for a while.

I'd just like to briefly add that one of the other suspicious things that Lady Dustin does is when she is talking about Lord Dustin's bones, she doesn't mention Mark Ryswell. He also died at the TOJ with Lord Dustin. We have no idea if Mark was her cousin, brother, uncle, distant kinsman...but you would think it would come up.

Big thing for me is she tells Theon they are the same and they both "wanted to be Starks"

Although he sacked WF he never truly killed Bran and Rickon and eventually ended up "doing the right thing" and helping to rescue Jeyne, I think Lady Dustin will take a similar path, at first hating the Starks and then pulling a 180

[maidenandwarrior]

Big thing for me is she tells Theon they are the same and they both "wanted to be Starks"

Although he sacked WF he never truly killed Bran and Rickon and eventually ended up "doing the right thing" and helping to rescue Jeyne, I think Lady Dustin will take a similar path, at first hating the Starks and then pulling a 180

You know, it's funny cause I never got the idea that she hated them in the first place. I sort of just thought of her as a woman in a difficult situation. She just carries on.

There are a lot of hints that most of the things she says aloud are BS. We are told before we ever see her that she hates Ramsay. And then, when Theon arrives at Barrow Hall, he sees this:

Lord Bolton led him toward the keep, where the banners were those of the Late Lord Dustin and his widowed wife. His showed a spiked crown above crossed longaxes; hers quartered those same arms with Rodrick Ryswell's golden horsehead.

There is this whole thing about how the Ryswells all have different versions of the sigil because none of them can agree on it. All of Rodrick's sons have different ones. If Barbrey is being honest that her father was willing to throw her at any Stark that wandered by, and she just happened to fall into Brandon's bed, and then got sent off to Lord Dustin when she failed to become a Stark...I dunno, I think I would blame my father for that a bit. The fact that she still uses his sigil, quartering it with her husbands, tells me that not all is what it seems about what she says.

[A Crow Come Over]

You know, it's funny cause I never got the idea that she hated them in the first place. I sort of just thought of her as a woman in a difficult situation. She just carries on.

She said she wants to keep Neds bones from resting in the crypt and hates Rickard for marrying Brandon to Catelyn but as you said, very little of what she says is actually the truth.

I think she heard rumors that Bran/Rickon hid in the crypts and then escaped and wanted to check it out for herself, the missing swords I think confirmed the rumor for her which has cemented her allegiance (at least I hope so anyway)

[Gannicus]

The book is not the show, but cues can definitely be taken from it.

There is still the possibility the Blackfish can reveal a will later in the story, but it would be naive to think the GNC theory isn't hurt if no will is revealed.

I find it amuzing that there are still some people who believe Jeyne is pregnant with Robbs child. All these are, are theories. The more complex the less likely they are to be correct.

[Stubby]

[MOD]

Please keep show discussion to the show threads.

Spoilers from one or the other inevitably cross over when we do not adhere to this forum rule.

Thank you all in advance.

[/MOD]

[Valandui]

Maybe this has been brought up already, but maybe Manderly's sending Davos after Rickon is to keep him away from Stannis. Davos is one of the few people who seems to be able to sway his opinion, so maybe they're trying to keep him from pointing out that they could be manipulating him.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

OK...I'm throwing this out there. Does the lack of the will being on the show worry anybody about the status of TGNC in the books?

A bit, but I doubt we should worry.

Even when the show is independent from the books and they can do whatever they want, I think it's clear that they will throughly follow the books: otherwise, why bother asking GRRM?. It's obvious the show will follow his path and I doubt that, for example, if in the books Jon is made King, in the show they will make Dany Queen instead and kill Jon.

About the will, there are two options why it was not included:

1. Anything related to Jon isn't important at all and we're just following fake clues: he was never made Robb's heir nor L and R are his parents. Doubt it, but there is a slight chance, though.

2. The show is deliberately avoiding anything related to Jon's parentage or rights (if those actually exists) because some unknown reasons yet. Maybe they want his plot to come as a total shock whenever it's revealed.

I guess it's number 2: they want the audience to still get shocked by the Red Wedding and whatever is going to happen in King's Landing in the next season before to start worrying about who is going to be final King of the North or the Seven Realms.

ETA: Didn't read the warning, sorry. That's all I'll comment about it :P

[bemused]

Maybe this has been brought up already, but maybe Manderly's sending Davos after Rickon is to keep him away from Stannis. Davos is one of the few people who seems to be able to sway his opinion, so maybe they're trying to keep him from pointing out that they could be manipulating him.

Yes , I , for one have mentioned something like this.. I think the GNC had their anti -Bolton plan well in hand before Stannis came along with his. Davos may come in very handy for retrieving Rickon , but it's not as if it would be impossible for them to retrieve Rickon on their own.They don't want to totally alienate Stannis, he is the enemy of their enemy..but they want WF firmly in Stark hands first and foremost. Manderly is , I think, holding many of the North's reserve forces for their own plan to take WF ( before Stannis can do it ,if , in fact , his plan can work) They don't really want to keep Davos imprisoned , but they don't want to send him back to Stannis too soon, and risk revealing their own plans.

[maidenandwarrior]

Yes , I , for one have mentioned something like this.. I think the GNC had their anti -Bolton plan well in hand before Stannis came along with his. Davos may come in very handy for retrieving Rickon , but it's not as if it would be impossible for them to retrieve Rickon on their own.They don't want to totally alienate Stannis, he is the enemy of their enemy..but they want WF firmly in Stark hands first and foremost. Manderly is , I think, holding many of the North's reserve forces for their own plan to take WF ( before Stannis can do it ,if , in fact , his plan can work) They don't really want to keep Davos imprisoned , but they don't want to send him back to Stannis too soon, and risk revealing their own plans.

I've actually wondered something like this myself. It is very possible that they just want to keep Stannis and Davos busy. I know that there is Jon's wolf dream at the beginning of ADWD, but is there anything after that to suggest that Rickon is still on Skagos? Manderly could have easily gone to pick him up between then and the point when Davos shows up in WH. I would love it if the GNC had been keeping Rickon safe this whole time.

[Scipio Africanus]

I've actually wondered something like this myself. It is very possible that they just want to keep Stannis and Davos busy. I know that there is Jon's wolf dream at the beginning of ADWD, but is there anything after that to suggest that Rickon is still on Skagos? Manderly could have easily gone to pick him up between then and the point when Davos shows up in WH. I would love it if the GNC had been keeping Rickon safe this whole time.

What's the point of getting Davos on a wild goose chase? Why not just send him packing back to Stan? I think Manderly really wants Davos to go to Skagos. Davos really does know the waters and probably better than Manderly's sailors.

She said she wants to keep Neds bones from resting in the crypt and hates Rickard for marrying Brandon to Catelyn but as you said, very little of what she says is actually the truth.

I think she heard rumors that Bran/Rickon hid in the crypts and then escaped and wanted to check it out for herself, the missing swords I think confirmed the rumor for her which has cemented her allegiance (at least I hope so anyway)

Barbery Rhyswell may have gone for Roose but she'd never go for Ramsay, or at least that would be highly uncharacteristic of her considering she suspects Ramsay killing her favourite nephew Domeric and she knows what he did to Lady Hornwood.

Indeed I think she went to the crypts to check out the aforementioned rumours, can't think of another reason, or she wanted to check out Lyanna Stark's statue to see if "Arya" showed any resemblence to the Starks. Perhaps she did both.

[bemused]

I agree that Manderly is genuinely using Davos' expertise in sailing dangerous waters..but if Davos had not shown up unexpectedly, I'm sure he would have had someone else to fill the bill. I don't take Manderly at his word when he says most of the sailors at his disposal are river sailors only. The lands that owe fealty to him include a lot of shoreline and more than one other port. ( He mentions Widow's Watch twice in his conversation with Davos, e.g.). It's very unlikely that these lands have not produced a few seafarers. ( It's even possible some of them helped to get Rickon to Skagos in the first place..)

At the same time , he can't just send Davos back to Stannis even after Wylis' return. If word leaked to the Freys/Lannisters/Boltons that he had not executed Davos, that would arouse their suspicion and ire ..and put the GNC's plan at risk of discovery.

As for Lady Barbrey , yes , I think she's checking the swords as a curiosity, but I think she's an integral part of the grand scheme and already knew of Bran and Rickon's survival. I think her main purpose was to open the entrance to the crypts to provide access to some of those hidden northern forces through a secret passage and that what seems to be her least important observation , that the stairs go further down , is actually most related to her immediate purpose.

She may ,in fact ,hold Roose more culpable in the death of Domeric ( and her sister Bethany) than Ramsay . Her hatred of Ramsay is genuine but may have, in reality , more to do with Lady Hornwood , his hunts and what she suspects about the sack of WF..I think her checking of the swords has more to do with whether Wex can be believed that it was not Theon who torched WF. If he can be believed about the swords, then it's likely the rest of his story is true , too.

[A Crow Come Over]

Not sure if this has been discussed yet but the personal coat of arms for each male member of the Ryswells is different, one of which being gray which is a Stark color.

I wonder if the different coloring or the gray colored coat of arms has any significance.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Just saw this little detail when reading Feast:

“Could I be Cat?”

“Cat.” He considered. “Yes. Braavos is full of cats. One more will not be noticed. You are Cat, an orphan of...”

“King’s Landing.” She had visited White Harbor with her father twice, but she knew King’s Landing better.

Which means the Manderlys would know what she looks like, right? A she-wolf, grey eyed? Not Jeyne...

[bemused]

Ni-i-ice , Ghost's Shadow..:D

I've read past that a few times.

[Cybvep]

How can the Northerners NOT know about Bolton's involvement in the Red Wedding? He was there, he didn't suffer losses, has been proclaimed a Warden in the North and is now working with the Freys, lol. Draw your own conclusions <rotfl>. I can understand why the Northerners pretend to accept Bolton's lies about the RW (Manderly alluded to this during his conversation with Davos), but if they actually believe that only Freys are responsible, then willing suspension of disbelief would go out of the window.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

How can the Northerners NOT know about Bolton's involvement in the Red Wedding? He was there, he didn't suffer losses, has been proclaimed a Warden in the North and is now working with the Freys, lol. Draw your own conclusions <rotfl>. I can understand why the Northerners pretend to accept Bolton's lies about the RW (Manderly alluded to this during his conversation with Davos), but if they actually believe that only Freys are responsible, then willing suspension of disbelief would go out of the window.

Actually I think they know damn well Roose had something to do with it, if not that he killed Robb (and no force on earth could protect him if they did), that he had some involvement. They're biding their time based on opportunity, not ignorance.

[Jslay427]

Just have to say I really love this thread, and this theory in general. While I see some huge foreshadowing in a lot of the info, I'm not convinced the GNC is anything more than us nerds compiling shreds of info, into one great, big ball.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Just have to say I really love this thread, and this theory in general. While I see some huge foreshadowing in a lot of the info, I'm not convinced the GNC is anything more than us nerds compiling shreds of info, into one great, big ball.

Isn't that how it works, though? Rather than one solid, one-shot revelation, we're given lots of smaller clues to pick out and piece together.