Cersei - feminist character, or not?

[Theda Baratheon]

The Septas cannot be High Septon though, that is definitely a male profession only. Apart from that we only hear of male Septons performing marriages and such like, and Septas seem to have a dminished role in comparison, basically in a simplified form how men within the Catholic church can be priests and monks, but women can be nuns only and cannot become priests.

To a degree, all the characters are irrational and emotional. Cersei is perhaps one of the more irrational since when we get her as a POV, her son and her father have just died, supposedly at the hand of her brother, and she is in a precarious position under a lot of stress and pressure. Hence it's logical for her to not be her most rational and stable self, I think.

I don't think anyone in Cersei's position would be cold, detached and totally rational, considering what just went down in ASOS. Of course, readers may hate Joffrey and loathe Tywin, but that doesn't mean Cersei the character does, necessarily. Their deaths are a big blow to her.

Yes I know and I understand why she is irrational but I was just saying to compare Cersei to Cat in that way is ridiculous.

[SeanF]

Re: Cercei's speech to Sansa of how woman are treated.

Often I see this as an example of her telling how things are in Westeros for women.Some even say it's example of her gentler treatment of Sansa.It's said it shows how she tried to warn her and open her eyes to reality around her much like Hound. The way I've read this scene is just Cercei being scared and letting it all out on one person she could,prisoner,young and naive,and only reason she did it was not because she wanted to teach her of well,let's say life but because she was scared witless and was envious of Sansa's calm. She just wanted to scare her for her own amusement.So her speech that to others might have feminist glow to me is different. It is just yet another thing showing how evil Cercei is. Does it express difficulties of women in Westeros,yes in general but it was one woman's speech of how life was unfair for her and only her. She's not thinking about any other woman in her speech,she maybe says "woman is sold..." but she means to say "I was sold..." and so on. I'm paraphrasing of course. So when she's saying how Jaime was given sword I don't read it as "men were given swords because they are men and women are neglected" speech I read it as "I wasn't given a sword and I think I could be good with one because I'm better than everybody else"...not much to do with woman's role in society and moire to do with Cercei's role. The whole thing is like having a broken clock that twice a day shows correct time.Does that make the clock punctual? Just because she says something that might be true does that mean she is spokeswoman of the sed truth if she doesn't understand it herself and doesn't think that way? We have a saying "Even a blind hen can find a corn".

Cersei's comments to Sansa during the siege of King's Landing are a strange mix of sympathy and spite. It's a case of misery wants company.

[Theda Baratheon]

I just really (personally) can't ever view Cersei as a feminist character.

[SeanF]

The Septas cannot be High Septon though, that is definitely a male profession only. Apart from that we only hear of male Septons performing marriages and such like, and Septas seem to have a dminished role in comparison, basically in a simplified form how men within the Catholic church can be priests and monks, but women can be nuns only and cannot become priests.

I agree about the High Septon. The Septas do, however, sit on juries, and we encounter them acting as tutors in aristocratic households.

[Naathi Prince]

If you want to call Cersei a feminist, go right ahead. Of course, that makes feminism look absolutely ridiculous and extreme, but...

[mcb]

I don't really think you can compare Robb and Lysa to be honest. Robb, yes he was given a choice but not much of a choice (a Frey :eek: to marry) however Lysa was forced to abort a child and shipped off to a man much, much older than her with no choice whatsoever.

I see Lysa's case as more of "lord v. his children" thing that a "man v. woman" thing. Lysa "dishonored" old Hoster, and he found a way to fix the perceived problem, with no regards for her opinion or feelings. Just as Randyll Tarly gave his "unfit" son a choice between a hunting accident and the Wall (well, technically it was a choice of sort). Although Hoster at least felt some remorse on his deathbed.

[juanml82]

Robb got to choose his Frey wife, and he had a choice in not crossing that bridge. Lysa, however, had no choice. Her child was forcibly aborted and she was married to Jon Arryn whether she wanted to or not.

Aye. And when Robb decided to forgo what was expected of him because of love, just as Lysa did, he was killed as a result. Lysa, at least, remained alive and kept her loved one as a lover. Ned, Tommen and Joffrey, for instance, also had no choice in their marriages. Of course, them not being in love nor pregnant, made it easier for them. But arranged marriages are precisely that, arranged. It affects both parties - even if we belive that men, being men, should f*ck every woman they can and never refuse to have sex, that doesn't mean they'll like to join a stranger in a loveless marriage.

Not to start a flame war, but that's one of my issues with feminism. They take a situation detrimental to both sexes and complain about how evil it is for women, seemingly forgeting men are also affected.

Westeros is certainly not an egalitarian society regarding gender. I still think Cersei exagerates, though. She does rule after all.

[Theda Baratheon]

I think I'd like to elaborate more on Asha Greyjoy.

Asha realizes what role society expects of her, she doesn't ignore the patriarchal society and she never one tries to act like a man, she embraces being a woman but she doesn't embrace any of the stereotypical roles set out for her. 'Queensmoot' she says, not Kingsmoot.

Asha does not pretend to be a man or wish she were born a man, she embraces the fact she is a woman. She doesn't tape down her breasts or cut hr hair very, very short - no, the Ironborn and everyone else is fully aware of her gender.

Not to mention she is a bloody IRONBORN some of the toughest, hardened bastards in the whole series.

She is definitely a much better character to look towards if you want to bring feminism into discussion concerning this series.

[Theda Baratheon]

I see Lysa's case as more of "lord v. his children" thing that a "man v. woman" thing. Lysa "dishonored" old Hoster, and he found a way to fix the perceived problem, with no regards for her opinion or feelings. Just as Randyll Tarly gave his "unfit" son a choice between a hunting accident and the Wall (well, technically it was a choice of sort). Although Hoster at least felt some remorse on his deathbed.

I agree actually. I didn't bring in feminism into what I said, I agree it was more a lord vs his children, it just didn't help that the problems concerning lysa came from her being a female.

[Gannicus]

I've seen some posters blame the patriarchal society for Cersei's behavior, which of course is absolutely ridiculous. But I think Lyanna is just saying how Cersei is a vehicle from which feminism can be discussed.

She does make that speech to Sansa which helps to illustrate the roles of ladies in Westeros, but ultimately Cersei's character is not much of a feminist symbol to my mind. There are much better examples of female characters who could serve as a feminist symbol. Cersei might have been a feminist symbol until she received her own POV. After that we were all able to see what her real issues were.

[Theda Baratheon]

Let's not forget young Meera Reed who safely got Bran and her younger brother to safety with the CoTF.

[Theda Baratheon]

I've seen some posters blame the patriarchal society for Cersei's behavior, which of course is absolutely ridiculous. But I think Lyanna is just saying how Cersei is a vehicle from which feminism can be discussed.

She does make that speech to Sansa which helps to illustrate the roles of ladies in Westeros. But ultimately I think Cersei character is not much of a feminist symbol in my mind. There are much better examples of female characters who could serve as a stronger feminist symbol. Cersei might have been a feminist symbol until she received her own POV. Then we could all see what real issues she had.

Oh yeh, I knew the point wasn't that Cersei was a feminist, but that she was a vehicle for feminism to be discussed; I just think there are much, MUCH better examples to use; like i've pointed out - Asha Greyjoy is one I have in mind.

[Rolex Baratheon]

Weird how Asha Greyjoy can be a feminist and be truly okay with the whole let's-rape-the-wives-and-daughters culture the Ironborn have.

[Kobayashi Maru]

Cersei's comments to Sansa during the siege of King's Landing are a strange mix of sympathy and spite. It's a case of misery wants company.

To me they are not. Like I said in my post I read it and felt it differently.It was pure bullying and envy. Again to me.

[Theda Baratheon]

Weird how Asha Greyjoy can be a feminist and be truly okay with the whole let's-rape-the-wives-and-daughters culture the Ironborn have.

Weird how I've never assumed from reading the series several times that she was 'truly' okay with the whole let's-rape-the-wives-and-daughters culture the ironborn have. Being born in the Iron Islands is definitely going to warp your view on females, but I never once thought Asha hated women as much as Cersei seems to.

[Naathi Prince]

Weird how Asha Greyjoy can be a feminist and be truly okay with the whole let's-rape-the-wives-and-daughters culture the Ironborn have.

Why do you think she keeps in her jerkin?

[Lyanna Stark]

If you want to call Cersei a feminist, go right ahead. Of course, that makes feminism look absolutely ridiculous and extreme, but...

If you actually read the OP, I think you'd see that this was not what was being said.

Weird how Asha Greyjoy can be a feminist and be truly okay with the whole let's-rape-the-wives-and-daughters culture the Ironborn have.

Asha Greyjoy was labelled a feminist by the poster I replied to, and not by me or anyone in this thread, I think (I might have missed something).

I don't think any woman in ASOIAF is a feminist in the modern sense, but that their characters and the problems they face which are specific to them being women illustrate a point, and that point is a feminist critique of patriarchal structures.

Again both the comments I quoted in this post are conflating the character in story with the interpretation we as readers lend them.

[Winter's Knight]

I see Lysa's case as more of "lord v. his children" thing that a "man v. woman" thing. Lysa "dishonored" old Hoster, and he found a way to fix the perceived problem, with no regards for her opinion or feelings. Just as Randyll Tarly gave his "unfit" son a choice between a hunting accident and the Wall (well, technically it was a choice of sort). Although Hoster at least felt some remorse on his deathbed.

But you see, when the Blackfish didn't want to get married, he left Riverrun. Men in Westeros have viable alternatives, women have sepa-dom or the silent sisters.

[mcb]

But you see, when the Blackfish didn't want to get married, he left Riverrun. Men in Westeros have viable alternatives, women have sepa-dom or the silent sisters.

I wish Samwell thought of that.

[straits]

Weird how I've never assumed from reading the series several times that she was 'truly' okay with the whole let's-rape-the-wives-and-daughters culture the ironborn have. Being born in the Iron Islands is definitely going to warp your view on females, but I never once thought Asha hated women as much as Cersei seems to.

If you want to portray feminism through empowerment of choice, agency, etc, Asha is a much better choice. She does not tread on other woman's throats in order to gain power, while knowing that this path is available to her since she lives in a patriarchal society.

I strongly disagree with the notion that Cersei can be put in context of women's rights (or rather privileges, since humans can't invent rights, those can only be given by a deity whose existence is up to debate) in anything but a meta-analysis of her situation, her remarks and the world she's in.

She is evidently unstable. Has been since childhood. One of the few characters with legitimate mental problems. The murder of her friend occurred before the patriarchy has taken its toll on her.