TrueMetis Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Yes, Aerys was nuts. No ordering a death is not that same as a war. Yes, yes it is. The death of one man was what kicked off ww1.Ordering the death of what is essentially a General (Warden of the North) is an act of war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted January 28, 2013 Author Share Posted January 28, 2013 @OP (and the minority arguing against the rebellion)Please do not ignore the several very legitimate arguements that have been made. Keep in mind you have asked US what we think, was it justifiable or was there another way. Huh :shocked: ? I am not arguing that Rebellion is justifiable... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rise of Dorne Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Like? Because history teach us that when a dynasty is overthrown the heirs must die.Again, I don't know that the dynasty needs to go. don't think you can blame an entire family or group of people for the facts of one or even some of its members. Why not get rid of the whole feudal system while you're at it? Its that system that allows people like Aerys to be in power in the first place. And no history doesn't teach that. Now you're just being ridiculous. There're exiled lords and landless lords all over essos and westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sansa Stark Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Yes, Aerys was nuts. No ordering a death is not that same as a war.Oh come on. Lyanna could have kicked Rhaegar's prissy ass. There's no way he abducted her.Dany never had a faceless man sent after her.Ordering the deaths of 10 Lords, however? Wouldn't that be seen as an act of war? And you seem to misunderstand everything about the abduction. Lyanna was a 14-year-old girl, Rhaegar was a full grown man and a warrior besides, with two of his Kingsguard with him. And yet you say she could've kicked his ass? That's a bit unrealistic, don't you think? There was every reason to believe that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna. We ''know'' (are inclined to believe) that this was not the case, but still, our opinion does not matter in the whole abduction thing, since Westeros (the Lords and stuff) had every reason to believe she was abducted, which was exactly what they believed. Daenerys never had a Faceless Man after her, but she did have assassins after her, and they were not complete morons. What I am saying is that you still overestimate the whole ''being able to hire an assassin''-thing, Faceless Man or not. They could not pay the price, since they would and could not accept Winterfell and Storm's End in return. Moreover, they were not in the position to offer Winterfell and Storm's End, since the minute they left Westeros (which would still be the case anyway), Aerys would take the two castles. Also, no, Daenerys was not even born at that time and there were no dragons, but it was clearly meant as implying the high cost of hiring a Faceless Man. I'm sure even you understood that. And where did you get the impression that the Iron Bank is working with the Faceless Men and that Westeros, or their Lords, knew about that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paytheironicprice Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 don't think you can blame an entire family or group of people for the facts of one or even some of its members.This is exactly what Aerys did to provoke the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rise of Dorne Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Yes, yes it is. The death of one man was what kicked off ww1Ordering the death of what is essentially a General (Warden of the North) is an act of war.That was not a good thing. i didn't say one death couldn't cause a war. I said it wasn't the same thing as a war. every one would have been better off if Arch Duke Ferdinand had died a lone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sansa Stark Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Huh :shocked: ? I am not arguing that Rebellion is justifiable...You mean that you are arguing the Rebellion was justifiable, and that he mistakenly thinks you are not? ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted January 28, 2013 Author Share Posted January 28, 2013 And no history doesn't teach that. Now you're just being ridiculous.There're exiled lords and landless lords all over essos and westeros. How about kings and their heirs? This doesn't work. Kill the king and let Rhaegar to rule? The one who caused the mess? Let his son? His already mad brother? Who? also yes history IRW teaches us that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted January 28, 2013 Author Share Posted January 28, 2013 You mean that you are arguing the Rebellion was justifiable, and that he mistakenly thinks you are not? ;) You lost me.... :stillsick: :drunk: :uhoh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackStark Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Treason: Rhaegar come out and die.Anyway murdering two people or four people doesn't justify going to war. The could have just run away and hired assassins to kill Aerys.Is the King and by extension Rhaegar above the King's Justice?Brandon Stark may have been rash but under the laws of Westeros did he not have a right to trial by combat over the abduction of his sister? If so, demanding Rhaegar to come out and die is not an act of treason but a demand for justice, something that did not require the death of him, his father, his party, and most definitely not the deaths of Ned and Robert. Like others before have stated, there is a compact between the government and its people, the King and his lords and subject, that goes both ways and when it is violated in such a heinous and capricious manner...rebellion is justified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rise of Dorne Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 How about kings and their heirs? This doesn't work. Kill the king and let Rhaegar to rule? The one who caused the mess? Let his son? His already mad brother? Who? also yes history IRW teaches us that...Rhaegar didn't cause anything. Its just a breakdown in communication. Granted, it was really a stupid thing to do. I guess he thought the fate of the world demanded him to have a kid with Lyanna, so maybe it was his only choice. But his actions didn't require a war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueMetis Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 That was not a good thing. i didn't say one death couldn't cause a war. I said it wasn't the same thing as a war. every one would have been better off if Arch Duke Ferdinand had died a lone. Which wouldn't have stopped the war just postponed it. Same as Westeros because Aerys is still insane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naathi Prince Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Rhaegar didn't cause anything. Its just a breakdown in communication. Granted, it was really a stupid thing to do. I guess he thought the fate of the world demanded him to have a kid with Lyanna, so maybe it was his only choice. But his actions didn't require a war.Sure, but they did require EXPLANATION and since he disappeared from the scene and left his nutty dad to do the explaining, a war began. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twenty of House Goodmen Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Is the King and by extension Rhaegar above the King's Justice?Brandon Stark may have been rash but under the laws of Westeros did he not have a right to trial by combat over the abduction of his sister? If so, demanding Rhaegar to come out and die is not an act of treason but a demand for justice, something that did not require the death of him, his father, his party, and most definitely not the deaths of Ned and Robert. Like others before have stated, there is a compact between the government and its people, the King and his lords and subject, that goes both ways and when it is violated in such a heinous and capricious manner...rebellion is justified.Thank you. People really get on Brandon for this but they seem to forget that Rhaegar(and Lyanna) were at fault. Of course, it would've been wise to use a better choice of words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sansa Stark Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Rhaegar didn't cause anything. Its just a breakdown in communication. Granted, it was really a stupid thing to do. I guess he thought the fate of the world demanded him to have a kid with Lyanna, so maybe it was his only choice. But his actions didn't require a war.Rhaegar caused the Lords to think that Lyanna was abducted, caused Brandon to go to King's Landing and do his stupid move, causing Aerys to kill him, his party and their fathers. The abduction triggered everything. Calling that merely a ''breakdown in communication'' is like saying Gregor Clegane is a saint. Granted, Rhaegar's actions did not require a war, but his actions did cause a war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted January 28, 2013 Author Share Posted January 28, 2013 Rhaegar didn't cause anything. Its just a breakdown in communication. Granted, it was really a stupid thing to do. I guess he thought the fate of the world demanded him to have a kid with Lyanna, so maybe it was his only choice. But his actions didn't require a war. What? He kidnaped (or this is what everyone knew) Lyanna, who was betrothed to another High Lord. No matter what he thought he shouldn't have done it. When her brother went to practice his legal right to trial by combat and he was arested and later killed along with his High Lord father by this own father who then demanded the heads of her younger brother and her fiance...He pretty much caused the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ingelheim Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Rhaegar didn't cause anything. Its just a breakdown in communication. Granted, it was really a stupid thing to do. I guess he thought the fate of the world demanded him to have a kid with Lyanna, so maybe it was his only choice. But his actions didn't require a war.looooooooooooolI wish I know what would happen if someone kidnaps your sister with the excuse that he has to save the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rise of Dorne Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 looooooooooooolI wish I know what would happen if someone kidnaps your sister with the excuse that he has to save the world.<Precisely my point. There wouldn't be a war. I wouldn't even kill them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rise of Dorne Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Rhaegar caused the Lords to think that Lyanna was abducted, caused Brandon to go to King's Landing and do his stupid move, causing Aerys to kill him, his party and their fathers. The abduction triggered everything. Calling that merely a ''breakdown in communication'' is like saying Gregor Clegane is a saint. Granted, Rhaegar's actions did not require a war, but his actions did cause a war.Yeah the incident triggered everything. Breakdowns in communication have caused wars in the past they will probably cause them in the future. But Rhaegar still didn't cause the war. He just did something stupid. Or at least I think it was stupid, but maybe he saved the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Sansa Stark Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Yeah the incident triggered everything. Breakdowns in communication have caused wars in the past they will probably cause them in the future. But Rhaegar still didn't cause the war. He just did something stupid. Or at least I think it was stupid, but maybe he saved the world.So Rhaegar did something stupid, and Brandon did something stupid, and Mad King Aerys did something stupid, and Jon did something stupid, and Ned did something stupid and Robert did something stupid. Yeey, no one caused the war, because they merely were being stupid! Glad we worked that out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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