Failings of feminism - real or not?

[sologdin]

I've seen some links from Sci and Kalbear. Stuff like that?

i get my information from books. so, no.

[Balefont]

Statistically, women are sentenced to 40% less prison time then men who commit the same crime. Is this evidence that men are discriminated against based on societal standards? Is this gender inequality? Why don't I ever hear of people (feminists) who claim to be for gender equality pointing out issues where men appear to be treated unfairly compared to women?

And how does your point undermine or delegitimize feminism? Feminism isn't denying men have their own set of issues. However, women aren't the ones in a position of power that are sentencing men to longer terms.

[Leviathan I]

your contribution didn't offer criticism; it offered insults. how about you start off with an elaboration as to why the doctrines of patriarchy and male privilege are erroneous, other than they're one hundred years old and sound like creationism (those doctrines are of course not a century old but nevermind the facts for now.)

Obviously I was slightly exaggerating here. What I was saying is that feminists (in my experience) claim to be for gender equality but focus solely on the issues of women and not only act like these same kinds of issues don't exist for men in certain areas but act like men are the problem. If I can actually get an intelligent response to that position I'd be very happy indeed.

Really this isn't a criticism? I will outline why I believe the patriarchy to be a completely bullshit idea (in our society) in a second, I'm getting trying to keep with with all of my notifications..

[Elder Sister]

Maybe male privilege and the patriarchy was something to actually worry about a hundred years ago. Somebody who uses those terms as I hear feminists on the internet use them as a way to describe developed society today has a world view so far from reality it's comparable to that of a creationist.

Why are you speculating about why I'm not hearing from the feminists that don't have the radical view? Isn't it just as likely that it's really not an issue like it was when women weren't allowed to vote and go to university etc?

You're doing what everyone else has done, pointing out the problem of associating the radical feminists with the rational ones. How about you outline (like I've asked) the beliefs of a rational feminist and actually respond to the criticism I put forward of feminism rather then criticize me for my glorious insults and make up bullshit reasons for why rational feminists aren't as vocal as they might be.

Leviathan,

Balefont will probably come back and answer you, but I thought I would as well. I've shared enough of my anecdotal evidence- both as to why I'm a feminist, why I was reluctant to call myself that as a very young woman, and how I have been treated in my profession. Now - here is some data with links provided. This data shows why feminism is both a valid and very needed movement.

• the wage gap persists overall between women working full time and men working full time: women earn a median weekly wage that’s only 81% of a man’s weekly median wage.
  
• the percentage of managers who are women has risen from 35% to only 38% of the last twenty years.
  

From this article:

"Women made up 50.8% of the population in 2010. Also in 2010, women became half of all workers in the U.S. Yet this mere presence of women in the workforce is anything but a show of equality when men hold the top management positions in a variety of professions in extremely unrepresentative numbers.

• 
  In 2011, women ran only 12 of the Fortune 500 companies.
  
• 
  Today in the 112^th Congress women hold 17 Senate seats out of 100 and hold 92 out of 435 House seats. (Info. from 2012 prior to elections...someone may want to update with more recent info.)
  

Also, here is a link to a paper by the AAUW that goes into much more detail about the pay gap.

• 
  
  

[sologdin]

why might the presence of disparate sentencing for males--assuming arguendo that it exists and furthermore is caused by some discriminatory animus--delegitimate patriarchy theory and male privilege doctrines?

eta--

for gender equality but focus solely on the issues of women and not only act like these same kinds of issues don't exist for men

this imposes the burden on feminists to argue for the expansion of male privileges at the same they challenge the existence of those privileges, aye? it's like saying that race theory is wrong because some of its adherents in advocating race equality have not argued strongly enough in favor white civil rights within the context of a system that has thus far only advanced white rights and has imposed no corollary burden on white persons to address the rights of non-whites. it's kinda ugly, no?

[Balefont]

Obviously I was slightly exaggerating here. What I was saying is that feminists (in my experience) claim to be for gender equality but focus solely on the issues of women and not only act like these same kinds of issues don't exist for men in certain areas but act like men are the problem. If I can actually get an intelligent response to that position I'd be very happy indeed.

Really this isn't a criticism? I will outline why I believe the patriarchy to be a completely bullshit idea (in our society) in a second, I'm getting trying to keep with with all of my notifications..

Holy fucking god.

Again:

Feminism refers to a school of beliefs that center around the social and economic equality of all people, regardless of gender. It is multifaceted and representative of many different viewpoints while also possessing several unifying goals and achievements. It is an ideology which focuses primarily on the plight of women and counteracting the effects of patriarchy. You will most often hear the American feminist movement referred to as being divided into three waves; First Wave, Second Wave, and Third Wave. The First Wave took place in the 1920s and focused primarily on marital and voting rights for women. The Second Wave began in the 1960s and focused primarily on reproductive rights, the family and the workplace. Third Wave feminism began the 1990s and is considered to be ongoing. It primarily focuses on inclusivity and extending the goals of Second Wave feminism.

Also, the awesome stuff ES posted. :)

[Leviathan I]

I reject the patriarchy because I (as a man) don't think women are inferior (or are treated as if they were). If it was a characteristic our society that men are the powerful ones and view women as inferior and sit around all day scheming about how to best subjugate women next why would this malevolent force also create these situations where men are treated unfairly?

[Leviathan I]

Holy fucking god.

Again:

Are you reading what I'm saying? I'm saying feminists purport to be for gender equality but only focus on the issues of women. You said nothing at all except that I'm right in saying that feminists claim to be for gender equality.

[Balefont]

I reject the patriarchy because I (as a man) don't think women are inferior (or are treated as if they were). If it was a characteristic our society that men are the powerful ones and view women as inferior and sit around all day scheming about how to best subjugate women next why would this malevolent force also create these situations where men are treated unfairly?

I guess you didn't read the thread carefully enough. Being a feminist does not mean you subscribe to the belief that there is a room full of Mr. Burnses plotting the oppression of women.

Male privilege is a pervasive fog through which we as a society must fight so see through until such time as it dissipates through force of will. Just because bad things happen to men that don't happen to women does not refute the fact that male privilege exists. In fact, it's been discussed ad nauseum in prior incarnations of this thread that male privilege has a negative impact on men as well. So please, stop feeling like the vilified victim here.

[Larry of the Lawn]

Leviathan -

from that same site

Patriarchy is a social system in which men dominate central roles of leadership and authority. It is perpetuated through cultural norms and concepts which have roots from long before any of us were born. Patriarchy is not a secret cabal of men plotting ways to oppress women. It describes the entire structure of a given society, from the roles we are expected to play to the qualities and values which we perceive to be superior.

That should alleviate any fears you had about what the patriarchy is.

[Balefont]

Are you reading what I'm saying? I'm saying feminists purport to be for gender equality but only focus on the issues of women. You said nothing at all except that I'm right in saying that feminists claim to be for gender equality.

Feminism refers to a school of beliefs that center around the social and economic equality of all people, regardless of gender. It is multifaceted and representative of many different viewpoints while also possessing several unifying goals and achievements. It is an ideology which focuses primarily* on the plight of women and counteracting the effects of patriarchy. You will most often hear the American feminist movement referred to as being divided into three waves; First Wave, Second Wave, and Third Wave. The First Wave took place in the 1920s and focused primarily on marital and voting rights for women. The Second Wave began in the 1960s and focused primarily on reproductive rights, the family and the workplace. Third Wave feminism began the 1990s and is considered to be ongoing. It primarily focuses on inclusivity and extending the goals of Second Wave feminism.

*But not solely.

And this definition does not say "claim to be for gender equality" but that feminists are for gender equality.

ETA: Thank you larry. :)

[Elder Sister]

I reject the patriarchy because I (as a man) don't think women are inferior (or are treated as if they were). If it was a characteristic our society that men are the powerful ones and view women as inferior and sit around all day scheming about how to best subjugate women next why would this malevolent force also create these situations where men are treated unfairly?

Did you bother to read anything I posted? For the love of Pete. Do you not think getting paid 18% less is being treated as inferior? How about having almost no representation in govt? How about not getting the same opportunities for management, although women now make up over half the workforce?

See, this is the crap that absolutely pisses me off to no end. Total refusal to accept that the patriarchy is real, the gender disparity is significant, and it is affecting every single woman.

Leviathan, read what I wrote. Then talk to me about patriarchy, okay?

[Leviathan I]

From Wikipedia: Patriarchy (rule by fathers) is a social system in which the male is the primary authority figure central to social organization and the central roles of political leadership, moral authority, and control of property, and where fathers hold authority over women and children. It implies the institutions of male rule and privilege, and entails female subordination. Many patriarchal societies are also patrilineal, meaning that property and title are inherited by the male lineage. The female equivalent is matriarchy.

I don't think that the society I live in can be described as a patriarchal society. I have a female Prime Minister for fuck's sake. I'm not very well versed issue of pay, it seems to me that the real question is are men and women getting paid the same amount of the same job, not are they overall getting paid the same amount. There could be plenty of reasons of completely reasonable reasons why women overall get paid less. Is woman x forced to have a job that has less pay than man x because of some unfair societal bias (or whatever) or is she just making an individual choice about what she wants to do with her life?

edit: and I'd have to examine those statistics, it's obvious that statistics can be flawed and can be manipulated to demonstrate a certain point of view, I'd certainly have to be skeptical by default about statistics cited by 'trustwomenpac.org'.

[BLU-RAY]

The point is that it's ingrained- this is not a conscious conspiracy (usually; I'm sure the frequency with which women are intentionally, conspiritorially, schematically subjugated by men is roughly similar to the frequency with which men are similarly discriminated against by women once controlled for the relative disparity of men and women in positions of power). But male privilege exists nonetheless. Many people have quoted examples of systematic disadvantages women face. If you haven't noticed them yet in life, you may be extremely lucky to not have encoutered them... or you may simply not have noticed them. Very few people look at the world and recognize subtle ways in which they've been promoted over others by the inherent system. Makes one feel like one's success is less one's own.

ETA: On the lines of choosing a job with less pay- this is frequently the insidious nature of the setup- see women vs. men in STEM careers/higher levels of academia, and the societal prejudices that lead to those disparities.

Also, for anyone wondering why education is so hard, and sometimes feminists don't take the time- I've been posting on this board since '06, and I've seen the above point discussed for multiple 20-page threads probably five or six times, each time with a new antagonist who is unwilling to be convinced without thousands and thousands of words. Hell, the point about having a female PM was addressed earlier in this very thread. People get worn out. I'm generally in awe of Lyanna for not being way more curt.

[Balefont]

The point is that it's ingrained- this is not a conscious conspiracy (usually; I'm sure the frequency with which women are intentionally, conspiritorially, schematically subjugated by men is roughly similar to the frequency with which men are similarly discriminated against by women once controlled for the relative disparity of men and women in positions of power). But male privilege exists nonetheless. Many people have quoted examples of systematic disadvantages women face. If you haven't noticed them yet in life, you may be extremely lucky to not have encoutered them... or you may simply not have noticed them. Very few people look at the world and recognize subtle ways in which they've been promoted over others by the inherent system. Makes one feel like one's success is less one's own.

:agree:

More reading for you, Leviathin. This was authored by a man.

Gender: Power and Privilege

[Larry of the Lawn]

@leviathan - If you read more of the terminology from those links, it might reduce some of definition-related confusion your having. In the discussion of feminism, some of these words are being used in a different context than you are might be accustomed to seeing.

and I'd have to examine those statistics, it's obvious that statistics can be flawed and can be manipulated to demonstrate a certain point of view, I'd certainly have to be skeptical by default about statistics cited by 'trustwomenpac.org'.

Maybe you should do that before you discredit them.

[Elder Sister]

From Wikipedia: Patriarchy (rule by fathers) is a social system in which the male is the primary authority figure central to social organization and the central roles of political leadership, moral authority, and control of property, and where fathers hold authority over women and children. It implies the institutions of male rule and privilege, and entails female subordination. Many patriarchal societies are also patrilineal, meaning that property and title are inherited by the male lineage. The female equivalent is matriarchy.

I don't think that the society I live in can be described as a patriarchal society. I have a female Prime Minister for fuck's sake. I'm not very well versed issue of pay, it seems to me that the real question is are men and women getting paid the same amount of the same job, not are they overall getting paid the same amount. There could be plenty of reasons of completely reasonable reasons why women overall get paid less. Is woman x forced to have a job that has less pay than man x because of some unfair societal bias (or whatever) or is she just making an individual choice about what she wants to do with her life?

edit: and I'd have to examine those statistics, it's obvious that statistics can be flawed and can be manipulated to demonstrate a certain point of view, I'd certainly have to be skeptical by default about statistics cited by 'trustwomenpac.org'.

Fine. Take your pick from any of the below. I seriously don't know why I'm bothering, other than you said you're in high school and I refuse to give up on the leaders of tomorrow. :)

So, please, read the information and ask yourself why it is that a group who represent over 50% of the workforce are so poorly represented? Why are they making less?

• CNN info.
  
• Info. from US Dept. of Labor
  

[Leviathan I]

Alright, I have to go for a little bit, I'll be back in a couple of hours (no doubt with a mountain of notifications). I'm gonna leave saying this; gender roles and stereotypes negatively effect men and women. It is my assertion that feminism only focuses on the issues of women, until you demonstrate otherwise I'm going to continue to believe that. And you haven't demonstrated otherwise, it doesn't matter how much you underline and highlight both genders in some web definition. We should all be working towards reducing the effect these gender roles and stereotypes have on everyone, calling yourself a feminist is arguing for the rights of one gender isn't a good way to go around trying to do that.

So, please, read the information and ask yourself why it is that a group who represent over 50% of the workforce are so poorly represented? Why are they making less?

I don't know why and just because I don't know why doesn't mean you're right. It's a classic argument from ignorance fallacy.

edit: "you don't know how the universe was created, therefore God"

[Istakhr]

I don't think that the society I live in can be described as a patriarchal society. I have a female Prime Minister for fuck's sake.

A female prime minister who has been called a witch and a bitch by her opposition?

When was the last time one of your male prime minister's been called these?

Or is it just because she among all your prime ministers in history she is exceptionally bad at her job? Sort of like how Obama is so lazy and is always shucking and jiving, right?

There could be plenty of reasons of completely reasonable reasons why women overall get paid less. Is woman x forced to have a job that has less pay than man x because of some unfair societal bias (or whatever) or is she just making an individual choice about what she wants to do with her life?

Those silly women, always taking low paying jobs and then whining, am I right or what?

PS: Sorry for the snark, this discussion is hopeless.

[Sci-2]

Statistics can be biased, but it's not a legitimate claim to say that the statistics that disagree with you must be biased. I think one would be hard pressed to find evidence that the discrepancy in wages/hiring/etc between genders can be explained by everything but sexism.

As for having a female prime minister, that isn't proof that patriarchy is gone. This is like saying Obama being elected president proves racism is gone. Alleviation of a problem is not proof that the problem has been eliminated.

We should all be working towards reducing the effect these gender roles and stereotypes have on everyone, calling yourself a feminist is arguing for the rights of one gender isn't a good way to go around trying to do that.

This is nonsense. You're trying to argue about a word implying exclusion. It's akin to saying a human rights activist must not, by definition, care about animals.