Failings of feminism - real or not?

[Elder Sister]

This example is totally anecdotal, but pretty much exemplifies what we're talking about.

I work in manufacturing management. I love and adore manufacturing, cost accounting, production efficiencies, all the crap that most people find mind numbingly boring. I have an accounting degree, but have worked in manufacturing most of my life - for the past 5 years as a manager. I was told 22 years ago, based on my sex that I wouldn't be good at these things. I have been told that I can't read a print and deduce the obvious, based on my sex. Never mind the fact that I can and do both of those things constantly. I have about a thousand other examples, many I've forgotten, that come from 22 years working in my field.

I sit in production meetings, staff meetings, etc., and I am usually the only woman present. I've gotten used to it, but by no means is my presence there because I can lift 300 lbs., benchpress 500, and beat the crap out of people. I'm an average female. Average looking, average dressing, average, okay?

The other thing I find funny is these same people that have made comments about how I 'don't need to read that print', or 'can't read that print', or don't 'understand' something, often made comments about my hair, dress, etc., as if looking feminine were somehow also against the rules. Yet, if I had dressed really 'butch' they would have comments about that, too. It was extremely discouraging at times.

Since I couldn't win playing their way, I just did my own thing, and while it's gotten so, so much better, it's still disheartening.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Links?

I don't need links, I only need to knock on my friend's bedroom door or look into a mirror, but I'll be back with "links".

[Lyanna Stark]

This is just one example on how I feel feminist have failed on ensuring that their message empowers women instead of confusing them. There needs to be more literature made readily available for women that do not actively seek the information on their own, because they are the women that need the message the most. The only view that receive is of over the top women wanting to castrate the males. For example, there should be television ads and brochures available at public health sites. The mis-education is not just the fault of the media, but also of the messengers themselves. You also have many "empowered" women looking down on those that are not as "empowered" as they are, and that is not at all beneficial.

While an interesting idea, how is this going to work out in reality? Who is going to pay for it? Should you introduce a feminist tax so that everyone identifying as a feminist has to pay for information being produced and made available to people who do not care for feminism in the first place?

Also, if people wish to find feminist literature, amazon has loads, as do the public libraries, normally. There are lots of excerpts online, for instance several chapters of "The Second Sex" available for free. Feminism 101 is a useful blog available online, for free.

Motherhood and its effect is also a hotly debated topic in feminist circles, with various titles providing different viewpoints on this topic (example).

So claims that feminists are not actually publishing material, that it's hard to find or always very expensive is not true.

[Balefont]

I don't need links, I only need to knock on my friend's bedroom door or look into a mirror, but I'll be back with "links".

Well, sorry for asking. You made a pretty strong statement so I assumed there would be evidence, beyond anecdotal, to support what you said.

[S John]

I have more or less sworn off any and all threads relating to feminism. I am making an exception here because the thread is about failings (perceived or real) and because I am procrastinating on an assignment.

The reason I make a very conscious decision to steer clear is that I have never studied academic feminism or literature and, honestly, I do not intend to. Pretty much everything that self-described feminists on this board want, I also want. I don't believe that I need to read massive tomes or blogs or journals in order to treat people as people. I feel that I am decidedly decent and fair to women and men alike.

But actually engaging in discussions on the board about feminism are intimidating to me because I feel that if I am not extremely careful about the way that I phrase things that I will be completely torched by people who have in depth academic knowledge of the subject. And, trust me, it has happened. I go from thinking - 'hey I want the same things as everyone in here!', to thinking - 'these folks don't think of me as an ally unless I take feminism 101 and read a stack of literature.' And because I don't think of myself as a barbarian who needs to bone up on feminist literature in order to be a tolerable person... well, I'm simply not going to do that. I have other things that I would prefer to do in my free time. It just seems to not be enough for my fundamental decency (which hopefully I have built up at least a shred of a reputation as a decent person over the last 7 years of posting here) to be counted on when trying to understand or discuss of feminism.

I always end up feeling like nobody has understood what I am asking / trying to say and that everyone now thinks I am a cretin. Don't know if I have ever gone through a 20 page feminism discussion feeling enriched by the experience. And again I'm quite sure that in reality, I am a feminist. It just can be a bit of a tough crowd around here, which is my honest opinion.

[Sci-2]

This is just one example on how I feel feminist have failed on ensuring that their message empowers women instead of confusing them.

There is no monolithic feminist group, so confusion is probably an inevitability. Most of the failings you mention seem to stem from society's perceptions rather than things exclusive to feminism.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

While an interesting idea, how is this going to work out in reality? Who is going to pay for it? Should you introduce a feminist tax so that everyone identifying as a feminist has to pay for information being produced and made available to people who do not care for feminism in the first place?

If your agenda is to empower women you take personal steps to ensure that this takes place. That is how must causes are carried out. Most of them "don't care" about feminism because they don't understand it. Why should they be punished due to their ignorance?

For example, I often take trips to the health department to give out information that I have complied myself. I also make it a point to educate those around me.

Also, if people wish to find feminist literature, amazon has loads, as do the public libraries, normally. There are lots of excerpts online, for instance several chapters of "The Second Sex" available for free. Feminism 101 is a useful blog available online, for free.

And how are they suppose to know that this information exist, or that they have a misinformed view on the topic that is worthy of reexamination I feel that this is also a social economic issue.

Well, sorry for asking. You made a pretty strong statement so I assumed there would be evidence, beyond anecdotal, to support what you said.

I'm sorry. I shouldn't have been so defensive.

[Sci-2]

And how are they suppose to know that this information exist, or that they have a misinformed view on the topic that is worthy of reexamination

Yeah, that's the big one. How do you raise enough doubt in a person's mind for them to question their position, especially given the stubborn nature of the mind toward overturning world views?

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

I have more or less sworn off any and all threads relating to feminism. I am making an exception here because the thread is about failings (perceived or real) and because I am procrastinating on an assignment.

The reason I make a very conscious decision to steer clear is that I have never studied academic feminism or literature and, honestly, I do not intend to. Pretty much everything that self-described feminists on this board want, I also want. I don't believe that I need to read massive tomes or blogs or journals in order to treat people as people. I feel that I am decidedly decent and fair to women and men alike.

But actually engaging in discussions on the board about feminism are intimidating to me because I feel that if I am not extremely careful about the way that I phrase things that I will be completely torched by people who have in depth academic knowledge of the subject. And, trust me, it has happened. I go from thinking - 'hey I want the same things as everyone in here!', to thinking - 'these folks don't think of me as an ally unless I take feminism 101 and read a stack of literature.' And because I don't think of myself as a barbarian who needs to bone up on feminist literature in order to be a tolerable person... well, I'm simply not going to do that. I have other things that I would prefer to do in my free time. It just seems to not be enough for my fundamental decency (which hopefully I have built up at least a shred of a reputation as a decent person over the last 7 years of posting here) to be counted on when trying to understand or discuss of feminism.

I always end up feeling like nobody has understood what I am asking / trying to say and that everyone now thinks I am a cretin. Don't know if I have ever gone through a 20 page feminism discussion feeling enriched by the experience. And again I'm quite sure that in reality, I am a feminist. It just can be a bit of a tough crowd around here, which is my honest opinion.

I think this goes to show that having academic debates on the issue doesn't really provide clarity or forward progress on the issue. Actions speak louder than words, and we should discuss ways to become more active.

There is no monolithic feminist group, so confusion is probably an inevitability. Most of the failings you mention seem to stem from society's perceptions rather than things exclusive to feminism.

True, so must do more as individuals. That is the failure of the movement.

[Sci-2]

True, so must do more as individuals. That is the failure of the movement.

But you're, IMO, incorrectly attributing the problems with a "failure" on the part of feminists.

It just seems like when you use the world "failure", you're implying feminists are directly responsible for society have the prejudices and ignorance you mention.

It's also a bit weird IMO to separate oneself from the "feminists", if one seeks to see women treated fairly.

[Lyanna Stark]

If your agenda is to empower women you take personal steps to ensure that this takes place. That is how must causes are carried out. Most of them "don't care" about feminism because they don't understand it. Why should they be punished due to their ignorance?

For example, I often take trips to the health department to give out information that I have complied myself. I also make it a point to educate those around me.

Well, I am of the opinion that the public education system which I pay into with my taxes should take care of education and that it is not my personal responsibility to teach people about feminism, the holocaust, how magnets work or which side of the road they need to drive on.

I do give people information about online sources, when there seems to be interest. More on that below.

And how are they suppose to know that this information exist, or that they have a misinformed view on the topic that is worthy of reexamination I feel that this is also a social economic issue.

The same way you know about socialism, history, geology, etc. You learn about it in school, or you are prepared enough by your schooling that you are able to look for information yourself, either by using your local library or such tools a Google.

While it is often a social economic issue, this can hardly be blamed on *feminists* who are doing what they can to criticise and combat the issue of gender inequality with limited resources and time. This is like saying it's the fault of homosexuals that people are homophobic since they are not taking the trouble to inform all the uninformed people about why they should not be discriminated against.

For instance, I often suggest the blog Feminism 101 since I think it's a good place to start. I suggested it to you earlier and you claimed I was rude for doing so. Hence I am not sure if you actually want more information, or you just want to complain about the lack of it, since when presented with information you did not want it. Quite the contrary.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

Yeah, that's the big one. How do you raise enough doubt in a person's mind for them to question their position, especially given the stubborn nature of the mind toward overturning world views?

That's the big question.

Logic is the only answer. You don't present them with scholarly papers and long academic literature at the start of their education process. You start by presenting a few simple ideas based on the location/people you are attempting to educate.

For example, I can't discuss this topic with many of those around me the way I can discuss it with you guys, because they are not there yet. I can come in here and read tons of academic material and dissect it with you guys, but if I came at them with the same material they would look at me as if I were losing my mind.

So, do I attack them, dismiss them, or look down on them for being ignorant? Of course not; I work around their preconceived misinformed notions to open their minds to a better yet logical idea.

[TerraPrime]

True, so must do more as individuals. That is the failure of the movement.

What, in your view, is a successful movement, then?

[sologdin]

Women that benefit from these programs should be educated on why they are able to receive these programs and why they shouldn't abuse these privilegesi

it's not obvious what the objection is here. in the united states, WIC, SNAP, TANF, and other public assistance programs are rights, not privileges.

i'm not certain that they are necessarily feminist, as opposed to bismarckian. whatever the ideological designation, how has the prevention of juvenile starvation "hindered women [in general] in many ways"?

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

By the way, now that I'm home and can access SA, here's one of the threads I was talking about earlier.

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3479721

Note that the following things apply:

0. This is a pay-to-play site. An account costs money. If you go past probation and into a ban, you must repurchase your account. This may or may not curtail any thread-shitting. Also, non-account-holders will see certain words filtered, and lose access to any thread that is archived.

1. This was not the first thread there on feminism.

2. This, I think, may have been the first one shut down for length rather than derailing / thread-shitting.

3. The OP is Feminism 101-ish, but the thread itself goes beyond that.

3a. You will find, if you go through it, that the thread contains posts from academic-focused and non-academic-focused feminists, including arguments over the best methods of reaching other feminists and non-feminists.

4. This is a closed thread. Read only, no meta-commentary, etc. If you really care, you'll register at SA and/or find the later Feminism thread(s) to read on your own, and deal with it all there.

I only mention it because it has really helped me pinpoint some thoughts I've been having, and weak points in arguments, and totally new perspectives (and, my fault, some things I had never thought of). It is absolutely not an echo chamber, other than that all of the main participants are self-identifying feminists.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

But you're, IMO, incorrectly attributing the problems with a "failure" on the part of feminists.

It just seems like when you use the world "failure", you're implying feminists are directly responsible for society have the prejudices and ignorance you mention.

IMO, it is partially their failure. They must do more if they want people to appreciate and not stereotype them.

It's also a bit weird IMO to separate oneself from the "feminists", if one seeks to see women treated fairly.

I see your point. I guess for the sake of conversation I could be labeled as a feminist. I don't do well with labels, but I can see the confusion.

Well, I am of the opinion that the public education system which I pay into with my taxes should take care of education and that it is not my personal responsibility to teach people about feminism, the holocaust, how magnets work or which side of the road they need to drive on.

That is not the reality of the situation.

I do give people information about online sources, when there seems to be interest. More on that below.

The same way you know about socialism, history, geology, etc. You learn about it in school, or you are prepared enough by your schooling that you are able to look for information yourself, either by using your local library or such tools a Google.

Schooling is not a factor for everyone.

While it is often a social economic issue, this can hardly be blamed on *feminists* who are doing what they can to criticise and combat the issue of gender inequality with limited resources and time. This is like saying it's the fault of homosexuals that people are homophobic since they are not taking the trouble to inform all the uninformed people about why they should not be discriminated against.

I'm only saying that we must all take a more active role before condemning others. I actually say that to my homosexual friends and family members as well, since I am a lot more vocal about their discrimination than they are; although I understand why in some situations. They can't sit back and complain if they aren't taking an active role in informing the uninformed through more than the "you're a horrible person. educate yourself" argument.

For example, here on the forum; is it productive to make those that are misinformed or ignorant to the ideas of feminism feel that they cannot take part in conversations; or that they are somehow dumb, or beyond hope. That isn't very productive. Throwing some literature at them isn't going to solve the problem if you don't try to understand where there misinformation begins.

For instance, I often suggest the blog Feminism 101 since I think it's a good place to start. I suggested it to you earlier and you claimed I was rude for doing so. Hence I am not sure if you actually want more information, or you just want to complain about the lack of it, since when presented with information you did not want it. Quite the contrary.

In all fairness, I didn't claim that you were rude until the situation in this thread. I defended your actions in the original thread. I didn't claim to not want the information when I was presented with the information. I was already well aware of that blog; you didn't care to see whether I was misinformed or simply had a different opinion before you assumed that I was ignorant on the issue, and threw a source of information at me. Anyone not accustomed to viewing your method of discussion would have taken than as an insult...and some did.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

What, in your view, is a successful movement, then?

I'm not saying that the entire movement is unsuccessful, only that it has failures the same as other successful movements.

I thought the point of this thread was to discuss the failures within the movement, especially when it comes to the misinformed.

[Lyanna Stark]

I'm only saying that we must all take a more active role before condemning others. I actually say that to my homosexual friends and family members as well, since I am a lot more vocal about their discrimination than they are; although I understand why in some situations. They can't sit back and complain if they aren't taking an active role in informing the uninformed through more than the "you're a horrible person. educate yourself" argument.

Well, actually yes, being discriminated against doesn't mean you have a duty to inform an educate people who discriminate against you. I hope you realise how totally unrealistic this line of thinking is.

[Elder Sister]

Why is it the responsibility of feminists to educate and enlighten the world about equality? This is something I don't understand. Shouldn't all decent people want this? Does the fact that I'm a woman mean it's solely my responsibility to do the educating? I don't expect other minorities to bear the burden of educating the masses on why prejudicial attitudes are wrong. But feminists should be the educators of the world regarding equal opportunity, equal pay, equal societal roles?

This is what I don't understand.

[Lummel]

...The other thing I find funny is these same people that have made comments about how I 'don't need to read that print', or 'can't read that print', or don't 'understand' something, often made comments about my hair, dress, etc., as if looking feminine were somehow also against the rules. Yet, if I had dressed really 'butch' they would have comments about that, too. It was extremely discouraging at times...

Sorry to take your post from the sublime to the ridiculous but you, well certainly in the UK, you see that in commentary on public figures if it involves women often involves their hair, clothes, looks. Aside from being a waste of airtime (because nakedness generally isn't an option in public life people are going to wear something which will be more or less ill suited or fitting for them just as it is for the rest of us ;) )there's a way in which it comes across as belittling - lets not talk about what the person does but what they look like.