Heresy 41

[Black Crow]

I rather took the Barrowlands as being not unlike Salisbury Plain in England - 300 square miles of, well.. rolling plain, largely inhabited in mediaeval times by sheep, but scattered about with barrows varying in size from barely perceptible irregularities in the soil to the massive Silbury Hill. Some are grouped in clusters, but in relation to the Plain as a whole they are very widely dispersed. We're not talking about a municipal cemetary writ large with closely packed row upon row of barrows and I wouldn't expect the numbers buried there - assuming that they are burial mounds rather than Sidhe hills - to be disproportionate to the time the area was used for that purpose.

When I spoke about the Long Night what I had in mind was that the North may have been much more heavily populated before the Winter than it is at the present time and consequently much more able to "support" a burial ground of this extent.

[JonNonRegis]

As I recall, the Barrowlands in LOTR where the kings and lords of the old North kingdom were buried were said to be haunted by their vengeful spirits (hence Frodo and cos. trepidation about staying the night there).

This could simply be one of the many, many nods to Tolkien that Martin has

Exactly the same thought I had.

Re the sparse population: I don't think it was the Long Night. If it were just that, then in thousands of years, the North could be replenished without much trouble.

Consider that in something like 12K years, both of the Americas went from near-zero population to many millions by the time of Columbus. The North is only about half as large as South America.

Much more plausible to me is this: The North is bloody cold, further removed from major commerce centers, and people are just less likely to want to live there. When Cersei calls the North a "grey waste," she's not kidding around - that's how it's seen by the majority of Westeros.

Here too we can easily find real-world parallels. Canada is also thinly-populated, and it becomes more thinly-populated the further north you go, yet it was never (to my knowledge) decimated by wights led by Others.

(Recently a Canadian friend told me that it had hit -28C; I suggested she move south of the Wall. It's pretty cozy down here in Dorne.)

[Ponys123]

By the way, wouldn't barrows just erode away in 8000 years? I'd wager they're a lot more recent than that.

[nenya~]

By the way, wouldn't barrows just erode away in 8000 years? I'd wager they're a lot more recent than that.

Nah, the barrows that Black Crow mentioned in Salisbury Plain are thousands of years old and are still around. There's White Barrow which is estimated to have been built around 3500-4000 BC making it around 5500-6000 years old.

edit: That's not to that there aren't any recent ones in the North. The age of the barrows could probably range anywhere from the First Men's arrival to more recently.

[Black Crow]

...That's not to that there aren't any recent ones in the North. The age of the barrows could probably range anywhere from the First Men's arrival to more recently.

I didn't get the impression that any of them were recent, but rather that they were there to emphasise how ancient the landscape was.

Consequently I'm not at all sure that they will turn out to be significant in any way; certainly not in terms of raising the dead and should some or all of them be Sidhe hills rather than burial mounds I think it would most likely just turn out to be the remnants of a lost past rather than anything else.

[Moonfox]

The Barrowlands may be a nod to the ancient "barrows" in Ohio where *RL crackpot* possible giants may be buried...

If the giants were numerous in the past they probably lived from north of the neck to North of the Wall.

[Ponys123]

More likely Tolkien, though. Bronze age kings and warriors, guarding their tombs and waiting for the day to rise again, undead. It's really hard NOT to catch.

[Black Crow]

More likely Tolkien, though. Bronze age kings and warriors, guarding their tombs and waiting for the day to rise again, undead. It's really hard NOT to catch.

And for that very reason not likely to happen :cool4:

[ViennaGirl]

This is not entirely original, but I have been thinking of late on the possibility of Others being dead kings of winter (Dead Starks)... When the forces within the world become imbalanced, they want to intervien & start wandering South, but they have no leadership and kill at will... The long forgotten lore is that someone is supposed to sound the horn of

Joramun

to assemble all the Others from all the Houses behind a common cause. I believe that all prominent families have Others, but only the Stark Others appear North of the Wall... Jamie had a dream about Lannister Others being in the bowls of Casterly Rock... Eddard, Robert, Rhagar, Rob & Tywin could potentially all be others (based on this theory)... I do not know why the Stark Others are running loose, but it makes Ned's line: "And Eddard dreamed of a frozen hell received for the Starks of Winterfell." make sense...

There is a significant amount of literature/legends/ect about Horns calling ancient heroes to battle. Many of the legends say the Horn is buried at "Horn Hill" which just happens to be Samwell Tarley's Family Seat & Sam is thought to have the Horn...

The Valyrians have Magic Horns that Bind Dragons (supposedly in the hands of Ironborn)

The Drown Gods have a Horn that calls Sea Monsters or Krakens (supposedly in the hands of Lord Seltagar)

The Old Gods have the Horn of

Joramun, AKA the Horn of WInter, which calls giants? I say dead heroes (supposedly in the hands of Samwell Tarley)

I think this is really interesting - the Others = Kings of Winter/Starks? Maybe that's why you put an iron sword on the Stark tombs - so they don't Otherize. But why are they north of the Wall? Through some Winterfell-to-Wall cave connection? Hmmm. Interesting.

[Black Crow]

Re the sparse population: I don't think it was the Long Night. If it were just that, then in thousands of years, the North could be replenished without much trouble.

Consider that in something like 12K years, both of the Americas went from near-zero population to many millions by the time of Columbus. The North is only about half as large as South America.

Much more plausible to me is this: The North is bloody cold, further removed from major commerce centers, and people are just less likely to want to live there. When Cersei calls the North a "grey waste," she's not kidding around - that's how it's seen by the majority of Westeros.

I think its both; that the North was once reasonably well populated - and we know there were kingdoms now lost beyond the Wall - but that most of the population died or fled south of the Neck during the Long Night. Afterwards, with the seasons screwed up and the North being perpetually cold there was no incentive for the population levels to return to the old pre-Night levels.

That's what the Barrowlands are about; its like all those abandoned cities in Essos and beyond, mutely speaking of ancient kingdoms

[Black Crow]

I think this is really interesting - the Others = Kings of Winter/Starks? Maybe that's why you put an iron sword on the Stark tombs - so they don't Otherize. But why are they north of the Wall? Through some Winterfell-to-Wall cave connection? Hmmm. Interesting.

The problem with that theory is that the Others/Sidhe were around before the Kings of Winter - they appeared for the first time during the Long Night.

There is nevertheless some significance to the iron swords on the Stark tombs because its a staple of folklore that iron binds or frustrates Faerie magic, so yes the swords are there to prevent the Stark kings rising, but not necessarily as "Others".

[Daenerys Flint]

Hey guys. Was just wondering; if the Stark Kings are "Other" related, could Jon Snow be the prince that was promised .. to the Others? Maybe to balance things? Or as part of an ancient deal to do with stealing or killing a Stark heir?

[Black Crow]

Well one of the problems is that we have no idea why the Prince was Promised. Mel thinks he (?) is Azor Ahai and Maester Aemon seemed to think the two were also one and the same, but we know so little about the prophecies its so hard to reach any conclusions.

However if the Song of Ice and Fire is the battle between Ice and Fire, if Fire has its champion in Azor Ahai (who may or may not be the Prince) then it would follow that there must be a champion of Ice...

[Black Wolf Smith]

I've been thinking about this along with the doom of Valyria, with the firewryms¹. Most post's throughout the forums seem to to lean towards a volcanic episode as being the Doom. What if, it was something different? The way I interpet Firewyrms reminds me of a Star Trek episode where they encounter these creatures that bore tunnels throughout the planet, which IIRC was a mining community. The creatures (firewyrms) bored so many holes and tunnels that one could easily get lost in.

Side note: afterall, we are still looking for a reason for how the caves of Gendel and Gorne could extend from North of the Wall to Winterfell².

1.Chekhov's gun/firewyrms. They will have to be used at some point in the story.

2. I have put forth the theory that what Ygritte thought was G&G childern were infact firewyrms. It also explains the caves in and of themselves.

[Black Wolf Smith]

Here too we can easily find real-world parallels. Canada is also thinly-populated, and it becomes more thinly-populated the further north you go, yet it was never (to my knowledge) decimated by wights led by Others.¹

(Recently a Canadian friend told me that it had hit -28C; I suggested she move south of the Wall. It's pretty cozy down here in Dorne.)²

1. IIRC something like 80% of the populace of Canada lives within 300 miles of the US borders.

2. With temp like that, in a non Electric powered world far fewer people survive. I would also point out cold weather place also have a traditionally higher birth rate, but lower over all populace. It would be harder to repopulate the North.

[yestoitall]

1. IIRC something like 80% of the populace of Canada lives within 300 miles of the US borders.

90% of the population of Canada lives within 100 miles of the US border...

[King Blackfyre]

Dunno if this is old news in this thread, but here goes nothing.

I have for some time had a theory that the Brotherhood without Banners are holed up on the Isle of Faces. A particular description that Arya made of their hidey-hole in which she points out weirwood roots and a weirwood throne, and weirwoods only grow on the Isle of faces. Not to mention that it's in the center of their zone of operation. Anyhow, to the heresy related point.

I don't think that R'hllor related sorcery exists.

The only noteworthy achievement the red lot have come up with so far would be the resurrection of Beric Dondarrion. Using a spell that has never worked before, by a man with none noteworthy abilities within the field what-so-ever. We have never been told where Thoros performed the burial rite, but why wouldn't the Brotherhood bring their leader's body with them to their refuge, alive or dead. Perhaps trying to heal his wounds (impalement isn't always fatal at first), or as an act of honor and respect.

The BwB have been hiding in a old CotF cave on the Isle of Faces, the last stronghold of the Old Gods south of the neck. A place where the old gods never were blinded, and are still standing strong. It is through the roots of the weirwood that Thoros' spell recieved the power to resurrect Beric Dondarrion, and since then he carried a tiny part of the old gods in his soul. Making it easier for Thoros to resurrect him at a later date and other place, and possible for Dondarrion to transfer his life energy to Catelyn Stark. With this being said, who else has the power to resurrect the dead? The wights of the others... And then there's Coldhands (I am going to presume hes been resurected by the children for now). My theory conserning the resurection isn't bulletproof, and my main consern is how all other magic in the world of ice and fire is fueled by blood. Only death can pay for life, etc, and why the old gods would grant life to a non-believing andal.

Another skill that have been demonstrated by the Red Priests, Melisandre using king's blood to binding the fate of three kings. Three leeches who had drunk regal blood were tossed in the fire, and three kings died. Coincidence? Mayhaps. If not a coincidence, and truly magical in nature, then I doubt it would have worked if she tried to fry the three leeches in a tent in the stormlands. It is the ancient castle of Dragonstone, it's dark history, and it's dragonglass rich ground that fueled her spell. This is purely speculation, and I am currently unable to prove or disprove this part of my theory.

And as far as clairvoyance goes, it isn't all that in GRRM's world. Prophecies are everywhere, and not really boastable. Everything else the red lot have shown so far are decent healing skills and Mel's little alchemy set.

Last but not least, the dragons. And, well, I'm more of a darwinist than a creationist (as far as that's applicable in GRRM's world). So no credit to R'hllor for creating them.

What I'm trying to say, is that the red priests aren't sorcerers at all, but sort of a mix between maesters and spetons, who doesn't frown, but inspire their acolytes to research magic. Meaning they are zealous men and women with a lot of magical theory, but no source of power.

Special thanks to "Starks Among Us", and her thread: http://asoiaf.wester...d-their-cave/ for putting me on this train of thought.

Edit: Completely forgot about the shadow babies.

Quick theory; If Mel and Stannis are lovers as some fans believe, Mel may have been impregnated at Dragonstone.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Another skill that have been demonstrated by the Red Priests, Melisandre using king's blood to binding the fate of three kings. Three leeches who had drunk regal blood were tossed in the fire, and three kings died. Coincidence? Mayhaps. If not a coincidence, and truly magical in nature, then I doubt it would have worked if she tried to fry the three leeches in a tent in the stormlands. It is the ancient castle of Dragonstone, it's dark history, and it's dragonglass rich ground that fueled her spell. This is purely speculation, and I am currently unable to prove or disprove this part of my theory.

In the World App, Martin has confirmed that Mel's use of the leeches had no bearing on the deaths of any of the kings--and, when you look at what actually happened, it makes sense.

Robb: there is evidence all the way through Storm, and even a little bit towards the end of Clash with Roose and his goings-on at Harrenhall, that point to a betrayal of Robb by Roose and the death of Robb at the Red Wedding eminent. Leeches happened long after.

Joffrey: while there is only circumstantial evidence to this point, it seems very likely that Joff's death had been planned by Littlefinger and the Queen of Thorns from the get go, considering that it was Petyr through Ser Danos who gave Sansa the hair net and then the Q of T that took the poisonous gem from it the day of the wedding. Leeches happened long after this plan was hatched.

Balon: If, as the circumstantial evidence suggests, Balon was assassinated, then it would mean that someone had arranged the assassination quite a bit before hand, and the chronologies show us that Balon died soon after the leeches burned, with not enough time for an FM to get hired, travel to Pyke, and kill him. Leeches happened long after plan went into effect.

Outside of that nitpick, like the post. The one thing stopping me from agreeing with the premise of the BwB being on the Isle is that Arya would have noticed if she had gone onto a boat but she never has thoughts about that. I like to think that the cave is ultimately underneath High Heart (with the entrance being somewhere quite a ways away).

[Black Crow]

Dunno if this is old news in this thread, but here goes nothing.

I have for some time had a theory that the Brotherhood without Banners are holed up on the Isle of Faces. A particular description that Arya made of their hidey-hole in which she points out weirwood roots and a weirwood throne, and weirwoods only grow on the Isle of faces. Not to mention that it's in the center of their zone of operation. Anyhow, to the heresy related point.

Nowhere is a boat-trip mentioned in getting to the hidey-hole where Sandor and Arya were taken; they rode there and then rode out afterwards. It was simply an old, but abandoned Sidhe hill. The roots and the cave system were still there and Beric did indeed settle himself on a weirwood throne, but the trees themselves (and the Children) were long gone.

I don't think that R'hllor related sorcery exists.

The only noteworthy achievement the red lot have come up with so far would be the resurrection of Beric Dondarrion. Using a spell that has never worked before, by a man with none noteworthy abilities within the field what-so-ever. We have never been told where Thoros performed the burial rite, but why wouldn't the Brotherhood bring their leader's body with them to their refuge, alive or dead. Perhaps trying to heal his wounds (impalement isn't always fatal at first), or as an act of honor and respect.

The BwB have been hiding in a old CotF cave on the Isle of Faces, the last stronghold of the Old Gods south of the neck. A place where the old gods never were blinded, and are still standing strong. It is through the roots of the weirwood that Thoros' spell recieved the power to resurrect Beric Dondarrion, and since then he carried a tiny part of the old gods in his soul. Making it easier for Thoros to resurrect him at a later date and other place, and possible for Dondarrion to transfer his life energy to Catelyn Stark. With this being said, who else has the power to resurrect the dead? The wights of the others... And then there's Coldhands (I am going to presume hes been resurected by the children for now). My theory conserning the resurection isn't bulletproof, and my main consern is how all other magic in the world of ice and fire is fueled by blood. Only death can pay for life, etc, and why the old gods would grant life to a non-believing andal.

They didn't have a refuge at that point, they were King's men defeated in that ambush at the ford

Another skill that have been demonstrated by the Red Priests, Melisandre using king's blood to binding the fate of three kings. Three leeches who had drunk regal blood were tossed in the fire, and three kings died. Coincidence? Mayhaps. If not a coincidence, and truly magical in nature, then I doubt it would have worked if she tried to fry the three leeches in a tent in the stormlands. It is the ancient castle of Dragonstone, it's dark history, and it's dragonglass rich ground that fueled her spell. This is purely speculation, and I am currently unable to prove or disprove this part of my theory.

I refer to the Hand's answer above

And as far as clairvoyance goes, it isn't all that in GRRM's world. Prophecies are everywhere, and not really boastable. Everything else the red lot have shown so far are decent healing skills and Mel's little alchemy set.

Moqorro wasn't doing too badly at the prophecy business either - and arguably better than our Mel

Last but not least, the dragons. And, well, I'm more of a darwinist than a creationist (as far as that's applicable in GRRM's world). So no credit to R'hllor for creating them.

Dragons are fire made flesh, but I don't recall anybody amongst the Red lot taking credit for them

What I'm trying to say, is that the red priests aren't sorcerers at all, but sort of a mix between maesters and spetons, who doesn't frown, but inspire their acolytes to research magic. Meaning they are zealous men and women with a lot of magical theory, but no source of power.

Special thanks to "Starks Among Us", and her thread: http://asoiaf.wester...d-their-cave/ for putting me on this train of thought.

Edit: Completely forgot about the shadow babies.

Quick theory; If Mel and Stannis are lovers as some fans believe, Mel may have been impregnated at Dragonstone.

Only up to a point. Mel isn't half as clever as she thinks she is, but there is power there - not forgetting the shadow babies, which is why she and Stannis were doing the dirty. The Heretical stance on these things is that magic exists as a tangible force and different cultures draw upon it in different ways.

[Black Crow]

The one thing stopping me from agreeing with the premise of the BwB being on the Isle is that Arya would have noticed if she had gone onto a boat but she never has thoughts about that. I like to think that the cave is ultimately underneath High Heart (with the entrance being somewhere quite a ways away).

Its possible I suppose, but High Heart can't have been the only abandoned Sidhe Hill around there and I can't see the Ghost of High Heart floating around it without coming in out of the rain.