Heresy 41

[Toccs]

So again i propose maybe the stabbing was to make sure Jon didn't leave.

If they wanted to make sure that Jon (and thus a Stark) stayed at the Wall, how exactly does killing him achieve that?

I suspect that there isn't anything deeper about the stabbing. It is exactly what it says on the tin, a small group of dissidents unhappy with the progressive changes being made by the new Lord Commander, just like what happened to Julius Ceasar.

I think that the original plan was for Jon to be killed while on the trek to Hardhome at which point Tormund and a lot of the Wildling chiefs would be north of the Wall and could thus be prevented from returning south. However Jon announced he was going to Winterfell (which as LC is perfectly within his rights and not oath breaking) the plan had to be changed on the fly and Wun Wun and Ser Patrek's fight provided a nice opportunity.

[wolfmaid7]

If they wanted to make sure that Jon (and thus a Stark) stayed at the Wall, how exactly does killing him achieve that?

I suspect that there isn't anything deeper about the stabbing. It is exactly what it says on the tin, a small group of dissidents unhappy with the progressive changes being made by the new Lord Commander, just like what happened to Julius Ceasar.

I think that the original plan was for Jon to be killed while on the trek to Hardhome at which point Tormund and a lot of the Wildling chiefs would be north of the Wall and could thus be prevented from returning south. However Jon announced he was going to Winterfell (which as LC is perfectly within his rights and not oath breaking) the plan had to be changed on the fly and Wun Wun and Ser Patrek's fight provided a nice opportunity.

I'm going on the belief that he isn't dead and that they sucked at killing him.I see your point on Ceaser move though, but i'm doubting that the likes of Marsh and company would understand any importance of a Stark blood staying at the wall.I'll have to look into that some more because i think there's something there.There are clearly some contradictions. Mind you a total crackpot.

[Black Crow]

Hey Ho wide awake again and here we are...

Nice video that from the Mistress of Whispers* and a wholly conventional description of the Watch from the Wildlings' perspective. What I thought was most interesting wasn't how the story of the Nights King was told, but the prominence being given to is which suggests that it may indeed be as important as we heretics have been suggesting.

A lot of the artwork is recognisable as story-boards from that earlier video. So was the Nights King story sketched in to fit with it or has it been storyboarded too for some point in season 3?

First a Hand, and now a Mistress of Whispers - who next for the small council in the Winter Court of the Sidhe?

[Black Crow]

If they wanted to make sure that Jon (and thus a Stark) stayed at the Wall, how exactly does killing him achieve that?

I suspect that there isn't anything deeper about the stabbing. It is exactly what it says on the tin, a small group of dissidents unhappy with the progressive changes being made by the new Lord Commander, just like what happened to Julius Ceasar.

I think that the original plan was for Jon to be killed while on the trek to Hardhome at which point Tormund and a lot of the Wildling chiefs would be north of the Wall and could thus be prevented from returning south. However Jon announced he was going to Winterfell (which as LC is perfectly within his rights and not oath breaking) the plan had to be changed on the fly and Wun Wun and Ser Patrek's fight provided a nice opportunity.

I think it goes slightly deeper than that. As we've been discussing, the story of the Nights King isn't exactly lost and if it was to survive anywhere it would be in the Watch. I'm pretty sure that while their frustration has been growing for some time at the bottom of Marsh's conspiracy there is a primal fear that Jon is turning into the Nights King come again.

[Black Wolf Smith]

First a Hand, and now a Mistress of Whispers - who next for the small council in the Winter Court of the Sidhe?

Can I be court jester? They never get stabbed....OH wait Jingle bells, never mind.

All the talk of Richard III, and no one said the big news. They found him, and we now have a face to go with the legacy.

http://photoblog.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/02/05/16852349-king-richard-iiis-face-revealed-after-500-years?lite

[Black Crow]

I did say it was a very topical comparison...

ETA: yes, if you want, but you have to provide your own motley - and bells

[Toccs]

I think it goes slightly deeper than that. As we've been discussing, the story of the Nights King isn't exactly lost and if it was to survive anywhere it would be in the Watch. I'm pretty sure that while their frustration has been growing for some time at the bottom of Marsh's conspiracy there is a primal fear that Jon is turning into the Nights King come again.

Only in the sense that it is a well known story that they can draw similarities too. Marsh and co don't know any more about the Nights King and his fall then anyone else and they don't think that Jon is in league with the Others. They simply don't like the way Jon is running things what with letting the Wildlings through and giving them food and lands that belong to the Watch.

[Ponys123]

All the talk of Richard III, and no one said the big news. They found him, and we now have a face to go with the legacy.

http://photoblog.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/02/05/16852349-king-richard-iiis-face-revealed-after-500-years?lite

Why isn't he, well, deformed? IIRC he was always described as ugly and evil looking. He looks like a smug teenager.

[Daenerys Flint]

Wait, is there any reason to think that Ned was aware of the prophecy (any prophecy at all) in the first place? I wouldn't think so. And even if he was, surely he wouldn't have given it any more thought that he did the direwolf-kiiled-by-the-stag sign.

Anyway, I agree that so far Fire seems to totally own Ice and the Old Gods. But I'm sure they have something more up their sleeves :devil:

I'm sure Eddard would have to know something from what Rhaegar told Lyanna and then what she told him, before making him promise whatever it was. I guess we will have to wait and see on that one, but point taken - it's hard to know what Eddard thinks - he's all "winter is coming" one minute and then denies that the Others are returning the next - silly wolf :) - on a side note about invasions - has anyone discovered if there is a link between Dothraki and the Nights King / Last Hero? The Dothraki hate magic and sorcery and are superstitious about the number 13. The Last Hero set forth with a dozen companions meaning there were 13 of them, and the NK was the 13th LC supposedly. Has anyone considered that the Others are like the Dothraki? They turn up and either demand 'gifts' or they go to war? Like how Craster handles the situation, gives up his sons so the Others don't kill him. Rather than stand up to them and fight he takes the cowards way out and gives up his sons which only serves to strengthen the Others?

[redriver]

I've no sound on this machine,so I can't hear the commentary on the Watch blu-ray.I tried playing the captions,but just got some hilarious gibberish.

So if someone could give me an essence of their take on the NK story,I'd be grateful :drool:

From the visual it looks like the Nights Queen is half buried in obsidian??

[TheButcherCrow]

I've no sound on this machine,so I can't hear the commentary on the Watch blu-ray.I tried playing the captions,but just got some hilarious gibberish.

So if someone could give me an essence of their take on the NK story,I'd be grateful :drool:

From the visual it looks like the Nights Queen is half buried in obsidian??

For the above poster & future reference, here is a transcription of Night's Watch vid Little Wing posted:

Swords in the darkness? Aye, the black brothers of the Night's Watch are that at least, as too many of the free folk know. You southerners are strange. A man murders & you train him to kill better. A man thieves or rapes & you send him where it's dark & private, where at least you make him promise to be good... and then you make him regret even that! From the time he's woken, to the time he's allowed to sleep he walks the frozen wall, carries frozen stones or boils frozen food. When he lies down at night he can't have anybody to warm his frozen bed. Well, not unless the crows like to nest together. You think he remembers the stories they told him then? About when the White Walkers woke in the Lands of Always Winter and how The Wall & The Night's Watch were raised to stop them the next time (never mind trapping us on the other side). We free folk have our stories too, about how one of your king crows found something cold in the woods, with bright blue eyes. How he brought her home, through your wall, and declared himself "Night's King". For thirteen years he & his queen ruled over his brothers, making sacrifices as black as their cloaks. Lucky for you southerners the free folk rallied to a King-Beyond-The-Wall, as we will when need be, and marched on the ancient castle he had taken as his own, The Nightfort. With the help of the Starks, we killed the demon & cleansed your precious watch. An' then they thanked us, an' kicked us back across the wall as you always have. Gendel, Raymun Redbeard, The Horned Lord. Each chosen as a king-beyond-the-wall, each promising victory, and each fallen to the Night's Watch and the Starks, but this time it's different. Our new king knows your tricks, you called him a brother crow once, but he never forgot his wings. We know how you think, we know where you're weak. Watch for us from your wall if you like. And the cold? You won't even feel the knife slide into your back.

[Tyryan Lannister]

I think it goes slightly deeper than that. As we've been discussing, the story of the Nights King isn't exactly lost and if it was to survive anywhere it would be in the Watch. I'm pretty sure that while their frustration has been growing for some time at the bottom of Marsh's conspiracy there is a primal fear that Jon is turning into the Nights King come again.

Funny seeing as that distinction probably belongs to Stannis.

And on the talk about Stannis=NK Reborn, a little something I realized late last night:

Stannis wields a sword called Lightbringer. The NK story contains elements of the Lucifer fall from grace story. Lucifer is the Latin translation of the Hebrew word heylel, which both of which translate into English as "the morning star" (SIDE NOTE: sounds like a different sword we know of...), or, as an adjective, it translates to "light-bringer."

Coincidence? Not likely. :devil:

[Tyryan Lannister]

Why isn't he, well, deformed? IIRC he was always described as ugly and evil looking. He looks like a smug teenager.

The description of him being ugly and evil looking pretty much stems only from Shakespeare's largely inaccurate portrayal of him as a means to paint him as a tyrant villain king. In actuality the only "evil looking" part of him was that he had a back deformity that (I believe) resulted in a significantly humped back.

[TheButcherCrow]

The description of him being ugly and evil looking pretty much stems only from Shakespeare's largely inaccurate portrayal of him as a means to paint him as a tyrant villain king. In actuality the only "evil looking" part of him was that he had a back deformity that (I believe) resulted in a significantly humped back.

His scoliosis would apparently only have been noticeable when he was naked. It would have caused no significant "hump" or "hunch" back. The only sign would have been his right shoulder being slightly higher than his left. No withered arm either. The man was a celebrated soldier & no plate armour in the world fits on a hunched back. The rumours/allegations/falsehoods/spin probably started after Bosworth, when many people would have seen his naked corpse and the full extent of his disability.

[Tyryan Lannister]

His scoliosis would apparently only have been noticeable when he was naked. It would have caused no significant "hump" or "hunch" back. The only sign would have been his right shoulder being slightly higher than his left. No withered arm either. The man was a celebrated soldier & no plate armour in the world fits on a hunched back. The rumours/allegations/falsehoods/spin probably started after Bosworth, when many people would have seen his naked corpse and the full extent of his disability.

I stand corrected. Thank you kind ser

[redriver]

For the above poster & future reference, here is a transcription of Night's Watch vid Little Wing posted:

Good stuff.Thanks for that.

[Little Wing]

Littlewing I think you've cemented yourself as our Mistress of Whispers :cool4:

You are most gracious, Lord Hand. *curtsies* :blush:

ETA: New whisperings around court...

[Little Wing]

Why isn't he, well, deformed? IIRC he was always described as ugly and evil looking. He looks like a smug teenager.

Just like Robb turned into a wolf during the RW. The disability was enough to spawn all kinds of ridiculous stories it seems, as well as Shakespeare's play... Heresy discusses historical inconsistencies in the world of ASoIaF quite often, and this is right up its alley.

[Moonfox]

I am not 100% sure about that.. Yes they did the stabbing, and probably wanted to out Jon somehow. I am suspicious about the stabbing because they did it so.. strangely. One of them stabbed him while crying. The other stabbed him and then threw up his hands like he was saying "I didn't do it!" They were all saying "for the watch" like a broken record. Something is fishy here.. Yes the whole bunch are a handful of snakes but it seems like "something" was pulling their stings.. Who is the puppeteer?

[Stark@heart]

I've always pegged Stannis as the "new" Nights' King but what if..... Benjen Stark is destined for that role instead? I've always thought Coldhands = Benjen, alot of people do, which still could be but its also a great diversion or "red herring" if Benjen is going to return. Everyone thinks he's dead & done, Coldhands or possibly The Hooded Man. That's the only notice taken of him on these forums.

Very good work from GRRM, hiding the fact the the Others may already have a Stark, if a Stark or Stark blood turns out to be needed. :devil:

Benjen & Co set off beyond the Wall and run afoul of the White Walkers, only this time, there can be no help for the Last Hero / Stark from the Old Gods or the COTF because The Pact has been broken. So, mayhaps Benjen is doomed to become what the Starks have always feared & warded against.... an agent of Winter.

This sticks with me because when I read the part with the 3EC showing Bran the heart of Winter and saying " Now you know why you must live" and Bran's tears, I think Bran saw someone, not something. If he saw Benjen leading the Others, then it makes sense that he seems more sad than frightened by the vision. It also explains why he hasn't asked the All-Seeing 3EC about his uncle, he already knows.