Heresy 41

[Black Crow]

Only in the sense that it is a well known story that they can draw similarities too. Marsh and co don't know any more about the Nights King and his fall then anyone else and they don't think that Jon is in league with the Others. They simply don't like the way Jon is running things what with letting the Wildlings through and giving them food and lands that belong to the Watch.

The Nights King story is certainly just a legend to Marsh but in a way that's the point. He doesn't believe in the Others, not really, and anyway if there is anything nasty out there all they need to do is seal the gate as he's been suggesting. Sorted. To him, however the Wildlings are the Others, and its the Wildlings, not mythical ghouls, who are the real enemy the Watch has been fighting for hundreds and thousands of years.

Jon, to Marsh, is indeed the Nights King come again, not because he's allying himself with a myth, but with the real Others, the Wildlings, and that's why he has to be cast down before he destroys the Watch as the last one did. That's why its all "for the Watch."

[Clueless Northman]

The disability was enough to spawn all kinds of ridiculous stories it seems, as well as Shakespeare's play... Heresy discusses historical inconsistencies in the world of ASoIaF quite often, and this is right up its alley.

Not to mention that such a disability might have been seen as either source of confirmation he was corrupted and twisted morally, because the twisted body was usually seen as the mark of a twisted if not evil mind.

[Black Crow]

Having had time to think over the new video, its rather good because unlike the previous bedtime story by Ygritte although the words themselves aren't canon there's nothing in there that contradicts what we already know, but rather articulates very clearly a lot of stuff that's only implied or inferred.

I still remain excited by the inclusion of the story of the Nights King since it confirms what we heretics have always believed as to its significance - it is going to be an important part of how this story eventually pans out.

The Wildling perspective on the Watch is interesting and to be honest, accurate. We have, way back in heresy, discussed how the openings were made in the Wall to allow the Watch to go forth beyond it, not to fight the Wildlings but to protect or at least watch over those living outwith the realms of men. Fine when it all began back in the mists of time, but with no real enemy and no incentive to volunteer for service in the North in time it turns from a police force into a penal battalion - and behaves as one too, alienating those they are sworn to protect and turning them into the only enemy they know.

Its interesting too that this aspect is emphasised. Television doesn't do nuance, and this is obviously setting up the non-reading audience to realise that the Watch isn't a noble band of brothers, but largely made up of some not very nice people that our hero really oghtn't be associated with and that he will indeed be much better off with the Free Folk.

[Black Crow]

I am not 100% sure about that.. Yes they did the stabbing, and probably wanted to out Jon somehow. I am suspicious about the stabbing because they did it so.. strangely. One of them stabbed him while crying. The other stabbed him and then threw up his hands like he was saying "I didn't do it!" They were all saying "for the watch" like a broken record. Something is fishy here.. Yes the whole bunch are a handful of snakes but it seems like "something" was pulling their stings.. Who is the puppeteer?

There aint one. They acted exactly as these things do work out - its messy and they're all shit scared of what they're doing.

[Black Wolf Smith]

No, it doesn't. It only suggests that their plans after getting through the Wall might not be just as benign as running away from the Others. We know the blame of Jon's stabbing lies solely with Bowen Marsh and his conspirators.

I am not 100% sure about that.. Yes they did the stabbing, and probably wanted to out Jon somehow. I am suspicious about the stabbing because they did it so.. strangely. One of them stabbed him while crying. The other stabbed him and then threw up his hands like he was saying "I didn't do it!" They were all saying "for the watch" like a broken record. Something is fishy here.. Yes the whole bunch are a handful of snakes but it seems like "something" was pulling their stings.. Who is the puppeteer?

We have had this debate more then once. While if you believe in Morganna/Morgan she/it could behind the attack, we don't just don't know enough, and everybody has a different op about it.

[Black Wolf Smith]

The Wildling perspective on the Watch is interesting and to be honest, accurate. We have, way back in heresy, discussed how the openings were made in the Wall to allow the Watch to go forth beyond it, not to fight the Wildlings but to protect or at least watch over those living outwith the realms of men. Fine when it all began back in the mists of time, but with no real enemy and no incentive to volunteer for service in the North in time it turns from a police force into a penal battalion - and behaves as one too, alienating those they are sworn to protect and turning them into the only enemy they know.¹

Its interesting too that this aspect is emphasised. Television doesn't do nuance, and this is obviously setting up the non-reading audience to realise that the Watch isn't a noble band of brothers, but largely made up of some not very nice people that our hero really oghtn't be associated with and that he will indeed be much better off with the Free Folk².

1. Very well put. I wish I could like it. I know that we have dance around it, I don't think I have ever seen it put more straight foreward, or as well said.

2. agreed.

[Black Crow]

Why thank you, but really all I'm doing is admiring how succinctly the video explained the truth.

[nanother]

The North might indeed have a lower population density, but it's still by far the largest of the seven kingdoms. I'd expect it to rank somewhere in the middle, population wise (the Riverlands and Reach likely have larger populations, but the rest most likely do not).

What are you basing that on, exactly?

Well, it's mostly speculation, actually. I don't think there's much evidence either way... the one thing that comes to mind is the Liddle indicating how the North used to be super safe while there was a Stark in Winterfell. I think I'm mostly just assuming that lower population densitiy, levels of urbanization, turnover of people, etc, will reduce crime rates as well.

As for the size of the population, yeah, I didn't try to compare individual 'kingdoms', I meant South (combined) vs North, in which case the difference is clear cut.

Has anyone considered that the Others are like the Dothraki? They turn up and either demand 'gifts' or they go to war? Like how Craster handles the situation, gives up his sons so the Others don't kill him. Rather than stand up to them and fight he takes the cowards way out and gives up his sons which only serves to strengthen the Others?

Maybe the Others were cousins of the Dothraki roaming the fields of ghost grass in Asshai? And all they want is to get back there, but there's a Wall in the way :leaving:

As to the prophecy and Ned: yes, I suppose it's possible that he heard it from Lyanna - I hadn't thought of that. That said, I still don't think it's very likely.

[WWCED]

I just don't understand what new understanding is gained by needlessly complicating a straightforward passage in the novel by speculating about who is really behind the betrayal, especially when the signs pointing toward it were liberally scattered throughout the book.

Because GRRM doesn't do black and white, but seems to like double entendres like "Your monster, Brandon Stark" and Mel saying she only sees "Snow". One word two meanings, which is correct?! (Two different punctuation marks, two different meanings LOL)

[Black Crow]

I just don't understand what new understanding is gained by needlessly complicating a straightforward passage in the novel by speculating about who is really behind the betrayal, especially when the signs pointing toward it were liberally scattered throughout the book.

Agreed. Its just one of those things which Jon brought upon himself for all the very best reasons but which went against everything the traditionalists had been brought up to believe - and remember, after that nasty wound in the fight at the Bridge of Skulls it was personal as far as Marsh was concerned.

[wolfmaid7]

If they wanted to make sure that Jon (and thus a Stark) stayed at the Wall, how exactly does killing him achieve that?

I suspect that there isn't anything deeper about the stabbing. It is exactly what it says on the tin, a small group of dissidents unhappy with the progressive changes being made by the new Lord Commander, just like what happened to Julius Ceasar.

I think that the original plan was for Jon to be killed while on the trek to Hardhome at which point Tormund and a lot of the Wildling chiefs would be north of the Wall and could thus be prevented from returning south. However Jon announced he was going to Winterfell (which as LC is perfectly within his rights and not oath breaking) the plan had to be changed on the fly and Wun Wun and Ser Patrek's fight provided a nice opportunity.

I honestly, don't think that BM and CO were at the root of this they were the hands that wielded the blow yes but who wielded them.

It doesn't jive that you would put children to run the NW, a 10yr old etc.Plus Benjen telling Jon that you get what you earn on the wall" So tell me how did a 10yr old earn the title of LC? I also point again to what M.Aemon told Jon in the tunnel the NW is not above forgetting old oaths and i have a feeling that they have.

Something else hit me and i may be missing something in AGOT I think it was a Catelyn chapter; Maester Luuwin had said "Benjen came to me a few days ago it seemed the boy wants to join the NW". Why not go to Ned? Why go to the Measter Luuwin what did you need council about? Why be worried about Jon's age if that was the case when you've had LC who were Starks younger than he?

[Moonfox]

I'm only speculating, and I know many people have different op's on this. I know the books were written many years apart, but compare the murder scene at craster's and the stabbing of Jon. Yes the forshadowing was on the wall the entire book "daggers in the dark" etc. AND Maybe our GRRM was getting tired toward the end and rushed it a bit. Maybe he had too many pages etc. But that whole scene just "seems" wrong to me. From the random knight poking at wun wun, to the extra antics. (crying, waving hands, etc) The murder scene at Crasters was "kind of" planned in advance (they wanted to do it at the fist, but the snow/wights got in the way). I don't see any of them crying at Crasters prior to slittting mormonts throat. I'm just saying something seems ODD about it thats all.

[Tyryan Lannister]

This brings a question to mind and of course I don't have my books with me at the moment but, do we have any secondary, independent references to the Night's King story that don't originate with Old Nan's story? I know Bran tells the Reeds the story when they're in the Nightfort and Jon recalls the story at one point, but Old Nan was the source of both those stories. Do we have independent confirmation?

Outside of that bit from the recently posted video seemingly told from the wildlings viewpoint (and not necessarily a reliable source in itself) I believe that Nan is currently the only source for the NK

[Tyryan Lannister]

Bingo. We have plenty of evidence and motive for Marsh & Co. acting completely on their own.

agreed.... BUT there is still the possibility that some of the wildlings helped out with the mutiny; however, it likely would have happened regardless of the wildlings possibly becoming involved in the conspiracy

[Tyryan Lannister]

Don't remember--had Tormund's host left yet on their trek to Hardholm by the time of the stabbing?

[Toccs]

Don't remember--had Tormund's host left yet on their trek to Hardholm by the time of the stabbing?

No the stabbing was almost immediately after Jon's big speech. He had left Tormund with the task of getting the Wildlings drunk.

[Little Wing]

Yeah, I wouldn't say the Wildlings had anything to do with Jon's assassination. When I said the last sentence in the clip was foreshadowing, I only meant of what happens at the end of Dance and was a nod to the reading public mayhaps, not that since showYgritte is narrating from the wildling POV it has to mean they were in on it...

[alienarea]

Yeah, I wouldn't say the Wildlings had anything to do with Jon's assassination. When I said the last sentence in the clip was foreshadowing, I only meant of what happens at the end of Dance and was a nod to the reading public mayhaps, not that since showYgritte is narrating from the wildling POV it has to mean they were in on it...

On the other ;-) hand we don't know if Ghost doesn't like Borroq or just his boar. And if the letter is from Mance it could have had a code for the wildlings ...

[Little Wing]

Oh, well, yes - Mance certainly is giving the whole thing a twist. I think the wildlings will be quite surprised by his endgame as well...

[Black Crow]

No the stabbing was almost immediately after Jon's big speech. He had left Tormund with the task of getting the Wildlings drunk.

Well, never set a boy to do a man's job...

But while Tormund was probably better qualified than most for that particular job, the Lord Commander one is a different matter entirely. I'm not sure whether Wolfmaid was party to our earlier discussions about boy Lord Commanders of the Watch, when she says it doesn't jive, but its pretty explicitly spelled out by Maester Aemon, when he tells Jon to take command, because: "you are a son of Winterfell, it must be you or no-one".

In theory Aemon shouldn't say that at all. Jon is not only a bastard but like all who come to the Wall and say the words he gives up his old family to be one with his brothers in the Watch. It shouldn't matter a damn whether he's from Winterfell, King's Landing or Casterley Rock; a nameless bastard or the last heir to a great house, he's now just a sworn brother of the Nights Watch.

Instead, Aemon tells him he must take command because"you are a son of Winterfell, it must be you or no-one".

For some reason sons of Winterfell must step up to command in times of crisis. We're not told the circumstances in which those other boy commanders were elected but I think, given Maester Aemon's words, we can be sure it wasn't because the previous Lord Commander dropped off his perch on a warm summer's day and everybody else had gone fishing. Like Jon, they will have been elected at times of crisis, precisely because they were sons of Winterfell, irrespective of their age.