Tywin - more similar to Cersei than we thought?

[Naathi Prince]

Tyrion has a bit of conscience and some compassion, Tywin is totally lacking in both of those.

Tyrion has a conscience? Where do we see Tyrion's conscience actually impacting his actions. As for compassion, Tyrion saves most of his pity for himself.

[Naathi Prince]

We don't have a Tywin point of view, so we don't know if he had a secret soft side, but I highly doubt that Tywin would ever have fallen in love with a hooker, or rode a pig in a fake joust. Tyrion has a softer, compassionate side that Tywin never showed.

So Tyrion's qualities are being an idiot who thinks women he pays love him and being willing to make a fool out of himself. Wonderful.

[Frey Pie]

Sending Ser Addam would have been half as effective. If Daven Lannister and Ser Addam are burning crops and such, maybe lords will keep back a portion of their strength, but with Ser Gregor about, they wanted to have most of their men with them. Tywin's strategy and Tyrion's machinations won the war for House Lannister.

As far as the Reynes and Tarbecks go, they didn't submit. THey didn't bend the knee. They revolted over and over again and this was the only way to ensure they didn't do so again. Not to mention the fact that it gave him a fearsome reputation for the rest of his life.

Ser Addam is extremely competent, and is a far smarter leader of men then Gregor or Amory. He would have hit hard and quick and moved on. As iv said already Tywin moved quickly. Although Gregor spread out the lords, nobody expected Tywin to attack so quickly. Jaime destroyed the hosts of the Riverlands too quickly for most lords to come to there aid, such as Lord Mallister who was far out of Gregors range. This shows that it was the speed and ferocity of the attack that won the Riverlands. While Gregor softened them up, Jaime won the regoin in battle. It was a pre-emptive strike and thats why it was successful

Wheres this history of revolt? IIRC the Tarbecks had a scuffle with Tytos, and then years later they rebelled. So while theyre a nuisance they dont have a history of rebellion. Its not known if they tried to submt. Its not known if they were killed in battle or executed. As for Tywin marrying into the house i take that back. Upon consideration it seems the ideal solution would have been to pick one of the Houses and have Kevan or another brother marry the oldest daughter. Make sure she inherits and you have a Lannister lord over the second richest house in the West. Seems like a better solution to me

[Danelle]

We all know Tyrion is "Tywin writ small" and the parallels are obvious. But there are also a lot of parallels between Cersei and Tywin.

This thread is focussed on Tywin, not on Cersei. I will list some important events in Tywin's life and try to build a picture of his character to compare it to Cersei afterwards.

Genna Lannister's marriage to Emmon Frey

Tywin is furious. He considers a match with a non-heir son of the most powerful bannerman of the Riverlands an insult. Granted, it is way less than could be expected.

Tywin contradicts his father in full view before a hundred guests, not in private, where something could have been done.

Lady Tarbeck imprisoning three Lannister hostages

Tytos Lannister arrests Lord Tarbeck because he got to uppity. In return Lady Tarbeck takes three Lannister hostages, Tywin's cousins, to press him free.

Tywin suggests a sharp lesson, he wants to return Lord Tarbeck in three pieces to show strength and wastes not a single thought what this would mean for his cousins.

Tywin crushes the Reynes and Tarbecks

Tywin ends the power struggle in the Westerlands in the most brutal way possible.

Tywin sexually abuses his stepmother

After Tytos' death, he forces the woman Tytos loved to do a walk of shame. As far as we know, for no other reason than Tytos loving a commoner.

Tywin needlessly makes an enemy out of a friend (Dorne)

Joanna Lannister was close friends with the ruling princess of Dorne. She forged a strong alliance and the women intended to secure it with a marriage. Either a bride for Tywin's heir Jaime or the somewhat more age-appropriate Oberyn-Cersei.

But Joanna dies in childbirth and Tywin intends his daughter to be Queen of the Seven Kingdoms. Very well, Jaime still needs a bride and one less eligible maiden out of five betters Cersei's chances on Rhaegar.

Tywin refuses and offers his newborn dwarf son. That's a completely unnecessary insult. Tyrion won't inherit anything and has little chances to make something out of himself, he offers nothing to Elia. He is excpected to die soon and even if he lives, Elia would be 30+ before they can do the naughty, the major part of her child-bearing years wasted. And of course Tyrion is a dward with all the accompagnying prejudices.

It makes an enemy out of a friend and probably starts Elia's road to Rhaegar. For absolutely nothing.

Lord Crakehall goes for a marriage alliance between Casterley Rock and Riverrun

Sumner Crakehall, for whom Jaime squires, sends Jaime on an unnecessary errand to Riverrun where Hoster Tully seats him close to Lysa. It's pretty clear those two try to make a match and it's a politically sound one. Lysa Tully would grant Jaime access into the North-Riverlands-Vale-Stormlands power block and she is the only available bride from a strong house remaining.

But why Sumner Crakehall? Shouldn't Tywin be the one to do that? Crakehall would never go against Lannister's own plans, that leaves Tywin not planning anything for his heir as explanation. Which is kinda dumb. Political marriages are necessary.

Jaime joins the Kingsguard

Tywin's heir is suddenly unavailable, leaving Tyrion whom Tywin scornes and Cersei. I'll come back later

Tywin brutally murders Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon and sacks Kings Landing

It's pretty clear Tywin intended to teach Dorne "a sharp lesson" for interfering in his plans with Rhaegar. The Mountain has already a reputation for possibly murdering his own father and sister as well as disfiguring his brother and Ser Amory Lorch has no temper at all, Rhaenys could never enrage him to murder her so brutally. It was done on Tywin's orders. The brutal sacking of KL fits right into the picture.

it doesn't gain Tywin much, he would be in the same position post-Aerys whether he sacked KL or not. Either Robert marries Lyanna, or Cersei is still the only eligible bride and a rich plum for a new king on a shaky throne.

Tywin does't remarry

Jaime is in the Kingsguard, Cersei's children will be Baratheons and Tywin flatout refuses to acknowledge Tyrion. The obvious solution? Marry again (Tywin's only ~40), father a son and pack Tyrion off to the maesters or septons. It would be easy, a child dwarf can't raise an army to object. Tywin doesn't. It would yield another ally by the way.

Tywin attacks the Riverlands

Lady Stark arrests Tyrion in the king's own name. Tyrion himself comments on the best solution: Have Robert try him in Kings Landing and let the Starks present their non-existing proof. But "Cersei would see the insult, not the opportunity."

It isn't Cersei that misses the opportunity, it's Tywin. He attacks the Riverlands, the most powerful alliance ever formed in the Seven Kingdoms, all on his own without allies, breaking the King's peace, something that Robert takes very seriously.

Tywin get's beaten by Robb Stark

Tywin bets his entire strategy on Walder Frey's whims and severely underestimates Robb Stark. As a result, the Lannisters are beaten and done for, all the Westermen including Tyrion agree on that. Because Tywin thought everybody would do exactly as he wished.

Tywin squanders Dorne - again

Tyrion did the impossible and secured an alliance, however tenuous, with Dorne. Tywin shats on it. He refuses to pay Dorne's price in Armory Lorch and Gregor Clegane.

Summary

- Tywin Lannister doesn't care one whiff for his relatives (or friends if he had any)

- Tywin Lannister wastes every alliance somebody else presents him on a silver platter

- Tywin Lannister reacts emotionally to any slight against him and strikes back in suicidal fashion

- Tywin Lannister assumes everything goes exactly as he planned

Sounds familiar, doesn't it? It's exactly what Cersei does in Feast with the Tyrells, the Faith etc. etc.

I don't know whether this is relevant or not, but I think that it is worth noticing Varys' reaction to the Lannisters. He almost urges Tyrion to kill Tywin. With Tywin dead, Cersei was loose. With Tywin dead, Tyrion was a wanted man, charged for the death of a king and a Hand. With Tywin dead, there is no way to maintain a balance between Tyrells and Lannisters. Varys, just like Aerys, feared Tywin and wanted him dead. Interestingly, they both urged Tywin's own sons to kill the father. Jaime refused and killed Aerys instead. Tyrion killed his own father. In the Re Read Project about Tyrion, it is mentioned that the act of patricide can often be regarded as an attempt by the child to replace the father. Tyrion is clever and quite capable. Varys, not only had his main obstacle, Tywin, removed but also has his clever son at his service. Meanwhile, Cersei is at the KL, turning Kevan and Jaime away, sleeping around with men like Kettleblacks and doing her best to provoke the Tyrells. Tywin associated with people like the Cleganes and Vargo Hoat but he thought of them as scum and never gave them reason to believe themselves above their status, especially the mercenaries. Cersei has people like Quyburn and Taena for friends and allies, she allows herself to be abused by people who are just awful. Her Walk of Shame didn't start when Kevan commanded it. It started when she was bored and thought to seduce Lancel, when Kettleblack tore her clothes and told her to keep her crown because he liked her with her crown on. Tywin is not predictable, simply feared. Cersei is predictable, and as much as I dislike him, I have to admit that LF was right. Tywin ruled the kingdoms for years, establishing peace and prosperity. Cersei ruled for a while and caused more problems than Stannis or Robb to Tommen's position as King. When Joffrey killed Ned, the Lannisters feared that Robb would kill Jaime. Tywin never expected Robb to be atrully noble man. Tywin had Jaime for dead, yet his reaction was calm. Even when he was reunited with Jaime in SOS he was still distant, and Tywin loved Jaime. Cersei blamed Tyrion for taking Myrcella away from her and when Joffrey died she run towards him. In regards to the similarities between Tywin and Cersei, I think that the following quote is the perfect summary

“His sister liked to think of herself as Lord Tywin with teats, but she was wrong. Their father had been as relentless and implacable as a glacier, where Cercei was all wildfire, especially when thwarted.”

[Naathi Prince]

Ser Addam is extremely competent, and is a far smarter leader of men then Gregor or Amory. He would have hit hard and quick and moved on. As iv said already Tywin moved quickly. Although Gregor spread out the lords, nobody expected Tywin to attack so quickly. Jaime destroyed the hosts of the Riverlands too quickly for most lords to come to there aid, such as Lord Mallister who was far out of Gregors range. This shows that it was the speed and ferocity of the attack that won the Riverlands. While Gregor softened them up, Jaime won the regoin in battle. It was a pre-emptive strike and thats why it was successful

Wheres this history of revolt? IIRC the Tarbecks had a scuffle with Tytos, and then years later they rebelled. So while theyre a nuisance they dont have a history of rebellion. Its not known if they tried to submt. Its not known if they were killed in battle or executed. As for Tywin marrying into the house i take that back. Upon consideration it seems the ideal solution would have been to pick one of the Houses and have Kevan or another brother marry the oldest daughter. Make sure she inherits and you have a Lannister lord over the second richest house in the West. Seems like a better solution to me

Sure, but he's not vicious enough, which is why it wouldn't have worked as well as Ser Gregor. Like I said before, Tywin is an asshole, but he's a smart asshole. While you may not like what he does, he definitely has reasons for his actions and I'd trust his reasons foremost.

Again, what is easier and more effective, hoping your plan with the Reynes works or making sure it works with Tywin's plan?

[mcb]

So Tyrion's qualities are being an idiot who thinks women he pays love him and being willing to make a fool out of himself. Wonderful.

Yes. That's why he designed Bran's saddle, kept petitioners away from Joffrey or felt guilt for embarassing Pod: to impress whores.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

This goes to show you're not treating this in the context of the setting and instead applying naive modern-day attitudes. Why do you even read these books, where one of the most noble characters opens his story by cutting off a innocent man's head off for justified desertion and forcing his 8-year old son to watch?

:agree:

[David Selig]

This goes to show you're not treating this in the context of the setting and instead applying naive modern-day attitudes. Why do you even read these books, where one of the most noble characters opens his story by cutting off a innocent man's head off for justified desertion and forcing his 8-year old son to watch?

What the hell? Talk about a reading comprehension fail...

My post you quoted was exactly about how by Westeros standards Tytos was well within his rights to grant his mistress whatever power he wanted. It doesn't matter if he did it because she was good in bed. Tytos was the lord, his word was the law.

How was Gareth's desertion justified, BTW? The whole point of the NW is to fight the Others, deserting when they finally appeared is the worst kind of desertion.

[Naathi Prince]

Yes. That's why he designed Bran's saddle, kept petitioners away from Joffrey or felt guilt for embarassing Pod: to impress whores.

the first act is pretty much the only time we see him doing something altruistic.

[The Dragon King]

Ill reply to the thread in detail later but just for now i wanna say this. Tywin had no right to underestimate Robb. So hes what, 15 or 16? Thats one reason to underestimate him. Now lets look at the reasons not to:

He has a host of experienced men and commanders who have fought wars before and can council Robb

These men have chosen to follow Robb. He didnt ask them to come. Theyre mature men, with great power. Yet they follow Robb. Why?

Robb comes from a long line of warriors and able soldiers and commanders

Robbs father was instrumental in winning two wars. He would have thought his son everything he knew. All no Ned was a good tactician, why underestimate his son with such massive backing?

He has natural allies in the Riverlands, who when they join will even up the numbers. Add to this the Vale.

So why does Tywin underestimate Robb? Pride and vanity perhaps. After all hes just an uncultured pup throwing down with the Lions of Casterly Rock. Whats to worry about?

Robb was green, while he might have had capable men around him to offer him good council he has to have the wisdom to accept it., Cat Stark gave him plenty of great advice regarding the politics of the war but he disregarded it completely, Robb was very good at the tactics of war but that's about it. Also, Ned had just proven himself completely incompetent as Hand, I'm not sure one would extrapolate that Robb would therefore be a good commander.

Tywin was wrong about Robb, there probably was some vanity that helped form that opinion but to his credit he didnt try to pretend his previous actions were correct, he admitted that they under-estimated him and then respected him as an opponent.

[David Selig]

Tyrion has a conscience? Where do we see Tyrion's conscience actually impacting his actions. As for compassion, Tyrion saves most of his pity for himself.

Feels weird defending him since I am usually arguing the other side, but Tyrion has some conscience, especially compared to his dad who'll murder thousands without hesitation for the slightest gain. Tywin would've deflowered Sansa on the wedding night and wouldn't have moved his finger to help Jorah during his peroiod as a slave, if he was in Tyrion's position.

[The Dragon King]

Absolute BS. Tytos obviously loved her and she made him happy. So she wore his mothers clothes. Im sure Tytos gave her permission to do so. Im also sure she filled the void when he was away. Theres never any mention of her ruling badly IIRC. What was she to do? Stay hidden in rags and leave the court ungoverned? Just because shes a common woman doesnt mean she should suffer Tywins jealousy. She was legitimised by Tytos and had as much right as anyone to act as she did

What is the main effect of Tywin doing that? He let everyone know, in no uncertain terms, that there was a new sheriff in town and that he had no problem being harsh or brutal. I guarantee that any power she had evaporated that day and everyone thought a lot harder about whether Tywin was a man to cross.

[Ponys123]

We all know Tyrion is "Tywin writ small" and the parallels are obvious. But there are also a lot of parallels between Cersei and Tywin.

This thread is focussed on Tywin, not on Cersei. I will list some important events in Tywin's life and try to build a picture of his character to compare it to Cersei afterwards.

Genna Lannister's marriage to Emmon Frey

Tywin is furious. He considers a match with a non-heir son of the most powerful bannerman of the Riverlands an insult. Granted, it is way less than could be expected.

Tywin contradicts his father in full view before a hundred guests, not in private, where something could have been done.

What could have been done? He was a child.

Lady Tarbeck imprisoning three Lannister hostages

Tytos Lannister arrests Lord Tarbeck because he got to uppity. In return Lady Tarbeck takes three Lannister hostages, Tywin's cousins, to press him free.

Tywin suggests a sharp lesson, he wants to return Lord Tarbeck in three pieces to show strength and wastes not a single thought what this would mean for his cousins.

Tywin has a lot of cousins. Respect is more important than distant relatives who only serve to gnaw away at the Casterly Rock's demesne. A lord has to ensure no one will challenge him above all, and all challenges must be met with decisive action.

Tywin crushes the Reynes and Tarbecks

Tywin ends the power struggle in the Westerlands in the most brutal way possible.

Feudal lords are like mobsters. If they sense weakness, they strike to further their own interests. An open rebellion MUST be crushed utterly, especially considering how tarnished the Lannisters' reputation was after Tytos's disastrous reign.

Tywin sexually abuses his stepmother

After Tytos' death, he forces the woman Tytos loved to do a walk of shame. As far as we know, for no other reason than Tytos loving a commoner.

He didn't just love her, he showered her in gold, and he allowed her to dominate. He wasn't only openly submitting to a woman, he was openly submitting to a COMMON woman. All social interaction is about power, domination, and in politics it's of utmost importance to always be ahead. Tytos couldn't have done worse. Tywin needed to reestablish the authority his useless father had thrown into the gutter.

Tywin needlessly makes an enemy out of a friend (Dorne)

Joanna Lannister was close friends with the ruling princess of Dorne. She forged a strong alliance and the women intended to secure it with a marriage. Either a bride for Tywin's heir Jaime or the somewhat more age-appropriate Oberyn-Cersei.

But Joanna dies in childbirth and Tywin intends his daughter to be Queen of the Seven Kingdoms. Very well, Jaime still needs a bride and one less eligible maiden out of five betters Cersei's chances on Rhaegar.

Tywin refuses and offers his newborn dwarf son. That's a completely unnecessary insult. Tyrion won't inherit anything and has little chances to make something out of himself, he offers nothing to Elia. He is excpected to die soon and even if he lives, Elia would be 30+ before they can do the naughty, the major part of her child-bearing years wasted. And of course Tyrion is a dward with all the accompagnying prejudices.

It makes an enemy out of a friend and probably starts Elia's road to Rhaegar. For absolutely nothing.

That was pretty stupid, yes, but it's nothing near as retarded as Cersei's actions, and everyone makes mistakes.

Lord Crakehall goes for a marriage alliance between Casterley Rock and Riverrun

Sumner Crakehall, for whom Jaime squires, sends Jaime on an unnecessary errand to Riverrun where Hoster Tully seats him close to Lysa. It's pretty clear those two try to make a match and it's a politically sound one. Lysa Tully would grant Jaime access into the North-Riverlands-Vale-Stormlands power block and she is the only available bride from a strong house remaining.

But why Sumner Crakehall? Shouldn't Tywin be the one to do that? Crakehall would never go against Lannister's own plans, that leaves Tywin not planning anything for his heir as explanation. Which is kinda dumb. Political marriages are necessary.

Tywin was already the most powerful man in the realm, sharing that power wouldn't be a good idea.

Jaime joins the Kingsguard

Tywin's heir is suddenly unavailable, leaving Tyrion whom Tywin scornes and Cersei. I'll come back later

Seriously? You criticize him for something that Tywin resents more than anything else, and was obviously not his doing?

Tywin brutally murders Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon and sacks Kings Landing

It's pretty clear Tywin intended to teach Dorne "a sharp lesson" for interfering in his plans with Rhaegar. The Mountain has already a reputation for possibly murdering his own father and sister as well as disfiguring his brother and Ser Amory Lorch has no temper at all, Rhaenys could never enrage him to murder her so brutally. It was done on Tywin's orders. The brutal sacking of KL fits right into the picture.

it doesn't gain Tywin much, he would be in the same position post-Aerys whether he sacked KL or not. Either Robert marries Lyanna, or Cersei is still the only eligible bride and a rich plum for a new king on a shaky throne.

The Targaryen heirs had to be eliminated, and Tywin was in a pickle now that the Targs had won the Trident. He had to clearly establish that he was on Robert's side.

Tywin does't remarry

Jaime is in the Kingsguard, Cersei's children will be Baratheons and Tywin flatout refuses to acknowledge Tyrion. The obvious solution? Marry again (Tywin's only ~40), father a son and pack Tyrion off to the maesters or septons. It would be easy, a child dwarf can't raise an army to object. Tywin doesn't. It would yield another ally by the way.

Whom would Tywin marry, though? But indeed, that's irrational and probably based on his butthurt over Joanna's loss.

Tywin attacks the Riverlands

Lady Stark arrests Tyrion in the king's own name. Tyrion himself comments on the best solution: Have Robert try him in Kings Landing and let the Starks present their non-existing proof. But "Cersei would see the insult, not the opportunity."

It isn't Cersei that misses the opportunity, it's Tywin. He attacks the Riverlands, the most powerful alliance ever formed in the Seven Kingdoms, all on his own without allies, breaking the King's peace, something that Robert takes very seriously.

Tywin's son was abducted, that's an affront to a lord's authority. Sacking the Riverlands was his retaliation. Again, authority is everything.

Tywin get's beaten by Robb Stark

Tywin bets his entire strategy on Walder Frey's whims and severely underestimates Robb Stark. As a result, the Lannisters are beaten and done for, all the Westermen including Tyrion agree on that. Because Tywin thought everybody would do exactly as he wished.

Tywin had two armies in the Riverlands, each very large, and he was in a position to intercept Robb wherever he marched. It was only after he received reports of the Northmen marching down the Kingsroad that he made his move. Tywin had no reason to expect Robb's strike toward Riverrun because his scouts didn't detect it, and he received no reports of Frey turning. It was all straightforward - the enemy is marching down to our position, and they're outnumbered, so we attack. You wouldn't have expected that either.

As they say, hindsight is 20/20

Tywin squanders Dorne - again

Tyrion did the impossible and secured an alliance, however tenuous, with Dorne. Tywin shats on it. He refuses to pay Dorne's price in Armory Lorch and Gregor Clegane.

Yes, that was pretty silly, but Gregor was doing a very good job in the Riverlands at the time.

Summary

- Tywin Lannister doesn't care one whiff for his relatives (or friends if he had any)

And? It'd be more of a problem if he did. He's a fucking lord. He has to act rationally whenever possible.

- Tywin Lannister wastes every alliance somebody else presents him on a silver platter

Not really, no. He ended up just as powerful as he would have if he'd married Jaime off, since he's still very much the power behind the throne during Robert's reign.

- Tywin Lannister reacts emotionally to any slight against him and strikes back in suicidal fashion

You simply don't understand politics. In the environment he's living in, not reacting to an affront is a sign of weakness, and any sign of weakness can lead to downfall. If you were the Lannister patriarch, I bet you'd be about as useless as Tytos, judging by your reasoning.

- Tywin Lannister assumes everything goes exactly as he planned

What? None of your points allude to that.

Sounds familiar, doesn't it? It's exactly what Cersei does in Feast with the Tyrells, the Faith etc. etc.

No. End of discussion.

[Frey Pie]

Sure, but he's not vicious enough, which is why it wouldn't have worked as well as Ser Gregor. Like I said before, Tywin is an asshole, but he's a smart asshole. While you may not like what he does, he definitely has reasons for his actions and I'd trust his reasons foremost.

Again, what is easier and more effective, hoping your plan with the Reynes works or making sure it works with Tywin's plan?

Oh i agree he uses Gregor effectively. However, i feel his overall plan would still have worked had Addam been his lead raider instead. Hes not as vicious but he is more cunning. In addition i think that although effective, Tywins strategy was always going to lead to trouble later, as we see with the Brotherhood. Tywin begins as the agressor, but later is acting as Joffreys enforcer, quelling a rebellion. He kept looting the people he would later expect to serve him. This is going to lead to unrest even after the war, and resentment to the new regime. Any sniff of a rebellion will have plenty of recruits, especially when they give the most beloved castle and symbol of the Riverlands to the most despised family

What Tywin did is easier. What i propose would be more effective IMO. It has some very positive effects for the Lannisters. While Tywins way gives him a reputation to be feared, it also leaves thousands of men dead, a whole house exterminated and a broken part of the region with a ruin of what we can assume was a once strong castle. Now, what i suggest is to break their power in the field. Hold all there male heirs hostage to good behaviour. Marry Kevan to their eldest daughter. This ties you to them and secures there good behaviour, while not leaving a broken part of the region, with a shell of a castle and many more dead. Over the years, there lord will die of natural causes, and you can make sure that his heirs die in various ways-accidents, fighting etc. Then you have Kevan as the new lord through his wife, and a strong ally. Its underhand, and i wouldnt do it, but it seems like an effective way to increase your family power, and take your enemies

[cortchuzska]

I quite agree. Lord Tywin casts quite a big shadow; and Cersei is the one of his children who wants to emulate him.

Cersei share her father's worst fault: lack of empathy. It basically earns him the Martells' undying hate without him even realizing, and eventually gets him killed, and makes Cersei blind and such an awful judge of characters.

[Frey Pie]

Robb was green, while he might have had capable men around him to offer him good council he has to have the wisdom to accept it., Cat Stark gave him plenty of great advice regarding the politics of the war but he disregarded it completely, Robb was very good at the tactics of war but that's about it. Also, Ned had just proven himself completely incompetent as Hand, I'm not sure one would extrapolate that Robb would therefore be a good commander.

Tywin was wrong about Robb, there probably was some vanity that helped form that opinion but to his credit he didnt try to pretend his previous actions were correct, he admitted that they under-estimated him and then respected him as an opponent.

Well Robb listened to her when she wished to be the one to talk to Walder, when she agreed to his plan, when she wanted a different commander for the foot, and he sent her to speak to Renly. IIRC the only times he went against her was with Theon, and Jaime, the latter of which is understandable enough. Ned may be a poor politician but hes an accomplished leader of men, and is a great wartime leader. One would expect that Robb would listen to those men, which he does to an extent. Therefore, i do feel that theres compelling reasons to think Robb would be less "green" then southerners of his age might be expected to be

What is the main effect of Tywin doing that? He let everyone know, in no uncertain terms, that there was a new sheriff in town and that he had no problem being harsh or brutal. I guarantee that any power she had evaporated that day and everyone thought a lot harder about whether Tywin was a man to cross.

Oh i know, its effective. Its brutal though and i dont agree with it. Personally, i wouldnt go to such lengths just to show people im a big deal. As with a lot of things Tywin does, i can understand why he does it, but i dont agree with his methods

[Bright Blue Eyes]

How is it defending abuse by pointing the OP is wrong for stating the mistress was not a step-mother? I know Tywin is hated but you can not just misrepresent a relationship to show how bad he is. She was a mistress and people try to construte this as a great love story so Terrible Tywin is some demon. She was a mistress who was given gifts and privelages above her birth. Tytos may have the right as his position does not mean it is acceptable. If your boss started to all their lovers make decisions you will view them as legitimate because that the boss. Even high lords have to follow protocol.

On thr Davos comparison. Davos was Knighted for his action, putting him a legimate structure. He may be looked down but he is still in a recongize social class.

So, a long-time relationship with the girl taking the responsibilities of a wive is not a stepmomship because it lacks a septon's say-so? Yes, that's formally true. Still 99,9% of it.

I never said that the walk of shame was perfectly fine, but in light of everything else Tywin has done, slut-shaming his father's mistress for acting above her station is really the most minor of crimes he has committed. He didn't have her raped by the entire garrison or killed her entire family and burn down her home just to set an example.

And seeing how having someone walk around naked is 'sexual abuse', does this mean the High Septon sexually abused Cersei?

Oh yes, the High Sparrow sexually abused Cersei. But he is not the topic of this thread.

[Naathi Prince]

Feels weird defending him since I am usually arguing the other side, but Tyrion has some conscience, especially compared to his dad who'll murder thousands without hesitation for the slightest gain. Tywin would've deflowered Sansa on the wedding night and wouldn't have moved his finger to help Jorah during his peroiod as a slave, if he was in Tyrion's position.

I think I've been over this before, but Tyrion left Sansa alone because of his pride, not his pity.

[Naathi Prince]

Oh i agree he uses Gregor effectively. However, i feel his overall plan would still have worked had Addam been his lead raider instead. Hes not as vicious but he is more cunning. In addition i think that although effective, Tywins strategy was always going to lead to trouble later, as we see with the Brotherhood. Tywin begins as the agressor, but later is acting as Joffreys enforcer, quelling a rebellion. He kept looting the people he would later expect to serve him. This is going to lead to unrest even after the war, and resentment to the new regime. Any sniff of a rebellion will have plenty of recruits, especially when they give the most beloved castle and symbol of the Riverlands to the most despised family

What Tywin did is easier. What i propose would be more effective IMO. It has some very positive effects for the Lannisters. While Tywins way gives him a reputation to be feared, it also leaves thousands of men dead, a whole house exterminated and a broken part of the region with a ruin of what we can assume was a once strong castle. Now, what i suggest is to break their power in the field. Hold all there male heirs hostage to good behaviour. Marry Kevan to their eldest daughter. This ties you to them and secures there good behaviour, while not leaving a broken part of the region, with a shell of a castle and many more dead. Over the years, there lord will die of natural causes, and you can make sure that his heirs die in various ways-accidents, fighting etc. Then you have Kevan as the new lord through his wife, and a strong ally. Its underhand, and i wouldnt do it, but it seems like an effective way to increase your family power, and take your enemies

He's looting people who are nothing to him, and who are in rebellion to his grandson. Looting and burning encourages them to give up fighting for some northerner they don't know and who isn't their lord any way.

As far as the Reynes and Tarbecks. Look, softheartedness doesn't work in Westeros, and his solution was ultimately much more effective. Why send Kevan away when he's the ideal 2nd in command?

[Frey Pie]

He's looting people who are nothing to him, and who are in rebellion to his grandson. Looting and burning encourages them to give up fighting for some northerner they don't know and who isn't their lord any way.

As far as the Reynes and Tarbecks. Look, softheartedness doesn't work in Westeros, and his solution was ultimately much more effective. Why send Kevan away when he's the ideal 2nd in command?

The peasants arent fighting for Robb. Edmures soldiers are. A population can only take so much before they will rebel. Tywin isnt helping his long term goal of a united Westeros by treating these, his grandsons people. They mean nothing to him now, but they will. Look at the Brotherhood and all the support they gathered under Beric and Thoros

This isnt softhearted. Hes beaten there army. Hes taken there sons. Hes taken the majority of there wealth and all their influence. Its not one bit softhanded, when compared to what we see in the books. And why could Kevan not retain his position as Tywins second? Quite aside from the fact that Tywin doesnt know Kevans uses yet as hes so young, Kevan can keep this part in Tywins army, but bring a large retinue and much wealth to the table himself, money and men which otherwise is lost