Tywin - more similar to Cersei than we thought?

[First of My Name]

Tywin and Cersei... They're certainly alike, except that Tywin is smarter, more patient, and more capable.

Nice thread, OP.

[Frey Pie]

Even Varys, no friend of the Lannisters, says he regrets having to kill Ser Kevan because he is such a good man.

Marrying a daughter to a high ranking bannerman is a good plan as well, because then the bannerman's son will be your grandson and raised by a woman who will teach him to respect your House.

Exactly, Kevan seems to be a good part of Tytos and a good part of Tywin. Hes capable and a good leader and planner, but not as harsh or as unlikeable as Tywin. Hes also not as prideful. He took the back seat to Tywin because he was the younger brother. Dutiful. Id have liked to have seen more from him. His POV was very interesting

Id like to point out that although the Freys are not respected they are powerful. The problem was it was a second son of Frey and not the heir. In hindsight what a great decision from Tytos. House Frey of Riverrun anyone? Obviously unforseeable, but even so Genna did well

SFW? He was Lord of Casterly Rock. He was the boss. If elevating the woman was a mistake, it was his mistake to make. And if it was anyone's fault, it was Tytos', not hers. She knew her place: it was exactly where her lord wanted her.

"Because Lord Tytos said so" is legal authority.

Who says he didn't? He showered her with gifts. Dude, read the books at least once...

And if Tywin didn't like her wearing his dead mommy's jewels, too fucking bad. He wasn't the boss, Tytos was. And Tytos apparently didn't mind.

Agreed. Tytos' word is law. That Tywin didnt agree with it is not Tytos' problem. In any case whats wrong with just throwing her out? It doesnt send the message that nobody messes with the Lannisters, which is what sways Tywins decisions much of the time

[Naathi Prince]

Exactly, Kevan seems to be a good part of Tytos and a good part of Tywin. Hes capable and a good leader and planner, but not as harsh or as unlikeable as Tywin. Hes also not as prideful. He took the back seat to Tywin because he was the younger brother. Dutiful. Id have liked to have seen more from him. His POV was very interesting

Id like to point out that although the Freys are not respected they are powerful. The problem was it was a second son of Frey and not the heir. In hindsight what a great decision from Tytos. House Frey of Riverrun anyone? Obviously unforseeable, but even so Genna did well

Well, Kevan didn't need to be ruthless because he wasn't the Lord. Kevan became Kevan because of Tywin, sure, but Tywin became Tywin because of Tytos' weakness. Watching men walk over your father day in and day out will increase your ruthlessness.

As far as marrying Genna to the Freys...I think we all know Emmon Frey isn't going to last long in Riverrun.

[TheKitttenGuard]

Are we defending Tywin's abuse of his father's mistress? Have we really sunk that low?

How is it defending abuse by pointing the OP is wrong for stating the mistress was not a step-mother? I know Tywin is hated but you can not just misrepresent a relationship to show how bad he is. She was a mistress and people try to construte this as a great love story so Terrible Tywin is some demon. She was a mistress who was given gifts and privelages above her birth. Tytos may have the right as his position does not mean it is acceptable. If your boss started to all their lovers make decisions you will view them as legitimate because that the boss. Even high lords have to follow protocol.

On thr Davos comparison. Davos was Knighted for his action, putting him a legimate structure. He may be looked down but he is still in a recongize social class.

[Frey Pie]

A commanding officer is responsible for the acts of his men, is he not? Look, Tywin didn't tell Gregor to go quite as hard core as he went, that was Gregor's choice. A lot of people seem to assume Tywin gave out specific orders...he didn't. To do so would be foolish. Could he guess at Gregor's intent? probably, but to attack Tywin without attacking Robb for the behavior of some of his men (including the Karstarks) is hypocritical.

As far as the western rebellion, what else do you need to know? Do you need a play by play? We've had multiple version and they all agree. Lord Tytos was too weak to deal with Lady Tarbeck and Lord Reyne, so his son Tywin had to deal with it.

I agree, but Tywins orders were for his raiders to burn the Riverlands and make the Riverland lords spread there defenses to thin correct? Tywin knows what monsters Gregor and Amory are (Elia and her kids). Addam Marbrand could have raided just aswel as Gregor but he wouldnt inspire the terror that Gregor does. Tywin knows that, and he gives his orders knowing what would happen. So while Tywin didnt specifically say as far as we know, rape and loot all you want, it is implied. I believe he uses some quote on dogs and knowing there use. In contrast Robb is there to liberate the Riverlands. Roose acts outside orders. So although i agree with you that the commanding officer is responsible, there are differences. I assume you mean Karstarks work in the West is it? In so far as we know the damage he reaped was not in anyway as much as Tywins dogs. However, i agree if he was going out of his way to cause death of innocents he should be reigned in, or Robbs reputation should suffer for it

Well Tytos reconciled the Houses in there previous encounter. What was different this time? Did he see in his son the man that was needed and so gave him leave to command the armies? Or did Tywin just ride out and call the banners himself? How many men did he command? Were there any who didnt come? How many men did the Rebels have? Why did Tywin feel he couldnt just defeat them, take away most of there wealth, and give it to a supporter? Why did he have to destroy them, taking into account his advice to Joffrey on how he should do the opposite? I have many questions Naathi. Its what makes Tywins rep so it must be impressive

[SeanF]

A commanding officer is responsible for the acts of his men, is he not? Look, Tywin didn't tell Gregor to go quite as hard core as he went, that was Gregor's choice. A lot of people seem to assume Tywin gave out specific orders...he didn't. To do so would be foolish. Could he guess at Gregor's intent? probably, but to attack Tywin without attacking Robb for the behavior of some of his men (including the Karstarks) is hypocritical.

As far as the western rebellion, what else do you need to know? Do you need a play by play? We've had multiple version and they all agree. Lord Tytos was too weak to deal with Lady Tarbeck and Lord Reyne, so his son Tywin had to deal with it.

Tywin and Kevan know exactly what manner of men Ser Gregor, Ser Amory, and the Goat are. Ser Gregor raped and murdered Elia and one of her children; Ser Amory murdered the other, either on Tywin's orders, or at least with his approval.

Ser Kevan promises to "set the Riverlands ablaze", and is as good as his word. His men rape, torture, and murder for the sheer fun of it, as well as a means to terrorise the population. Jaime contrasts people like Roose Bolton's captain, Steelshanks Walton, with the Bloody Mummers and the men who serve Ser Gregor. The former will slay when his lord commands it, and rape when his blood is up, while the latter plumb far worse depths of depravity.

[The Wolves]

Cersei and Tywin are very much alike but Cersei definitely lacks Tywin's intelligence to rule(Tyrion defiantly has this trait ) They are also the downfall of their Houses

[Naathi Prince]

I agree, but Tywins orders were for his raiders to burn the Riverlands and make the Riverland lords spread there defenses to thin correct? Tywin knows what monsters Gregor and Amory are (Elia and her kids). Addam Marbrand could have raided just aswel as Gregor but he wouldnt inspire the terror that Gregor does. Tywin knows that, and he gives his orders knowing what would happen. So while Tywin didnt specifically say as far as we know, rape and loot all you want, it is implied. I believe he uses some quote on dogs and knowing there use. In contrast Robb is there to liberate the Riverlands. Roose acts outside orders. So although i agree with you that the commanding officer is responsible, there are differences. I assume you mean Karstarks work in the West is it? In so far as we know the damage he reaped was not in anyway as much as Tywins dogs. However, i agree if he was going out of his way to cause death of innocents he should be reigned in, or Robbs reputation should suffer for it

Well Tytos reconciled the Houses in there previous encounter. What was different this time? Did he see in his son the man that was needed and so gave him leave to command the armies? Or did Tywin just ride out and call the banners himself? How many men did he command? Were there any who didnt come? How many men did the Rebels have? Why did Tywin feel he couldnt just defeat them, take away most of there wealth, and give it to a supporter? Why did he have to destroy them, taking into account his advice to Joffrey on how he should do the opposite? I have many questions Naathi. Its what makes Tywins rep so it must be impressive

Sure, and its probably the only plan that would work. If he doesn't go with the plan he goes with, the Riverlords would have assembled a host and crushed his.

The books imply that Tytos would have capitulated, but Tywin insisted on storming their keeps. Many of the questions you have seem to have implied answers. The Tarbecks and Reynes were the largest bannermen or Casterly Rock, akin in power and prestige to Lord Redwyne, Lord Royce, etc. As far why Tywin destroyed them, it was the repeated insurrections and insults. If Tywin left them alive, they would have taken Lannisport and the Rock during the War of the Five Kings.

[Naathi Prince]

Tywin and Kevan know exactly what manner of men Ser Gregor, Ser Amory, and the Goat are. Ser Gregor raped and murdered Elia and one of her children; Ser Amory murdered the other, either on Tywin's orders, or at least with his approval.

Ser Kevan promises to "set the Riverlands ablaze", and is as good as his word. His men rape, torture, and murder for the sheer fun of it, as well as a means to terrorise the population. Jaime contrasts people like Roose Bolton's captain, Steelshanks Walton, with the Bloody Mummers and the men who serve Ser Gregor. The former will slay when his lord commands it, and rape when his blood is up, while the latter plumb far worse depths of depravity.

He knows about Ser Gregor and Ser Amory, but does he know about the Tickler? As far as Vargo Hoat goes, what is there to imply he knows a lot about him and his crew? Setting the Riverlands ablaze was a legitimate tactic in warfare at the time. Hell, even in ww2, USSR soldiers were known to rape and pillage as they moved.

[SeanF]

A man who commanded his guardsmen to gang-rape a 14 year old girl will certainly have a pretty shrewd idea of the sort of men that enter his service. The Bloody Mummers are notorious for cruelty.

[Frey Pie]

Sure, and its probably the only plan that would work. If he doesn't go with the plan he goes with, the Riverlords would have assembled a host and crushed his.

The books imply that Tytos would have capitulated, but Tywin insisted on storming their keeps. Many of the questions you have seem to have implied answers. The Tarbecks and Reynes were the largest bannermen or Casterly Rock, akin in power and prestige to Lord Redwyne, Lord Royce, etc. As far why Tywin destroyed them, it was the repeated insurrections and insults. If Tywin left them alive, they would have taken Lannisport and the Rock during the War of the Five Kings.

Not necessarily. As i said Addam Marbrand could have drawn out some lords to defend there homes also, but wouldnt have been as brutal. Now he may not have been as effective, but it was the preemptive attack on Tywins part that seems to have won it. His men attacked suddenly, and beat a host over eight times smaller then theres. Edmure i believe, was still training and bringing together his host when this happened and so he had no chance to raise more before Jaime was on him. After that the Riverlands were split, and had nobody to form a proper resistance.

Were there any other options? As i said, once beaten Tywin could have made them petty lords, taking away most of there power and money, making it si they cant rebel again, or would never gain support to do so. He could have married a daughter of one of the Houses and so secured there allegiance that way and in doing so taking there power and making it his own. Were any of these options thought of? Or were they not feasible for some unknown reason?

[Kolantero]

Yes i just confirmed that i disagree with what your saying, and agree with what WK is saying. I didnt call you stupid for thinkng that way or having that belief. I commented on the fact that i believe its odd

What WK was saying (with which you agreed) was that my (and others') opinion was "sinking us lower than ever before." And you didn't just commented on "how odd" it was you said that what's worse is that many people agree. If you truly cannot understand how that is more insulting than calling someone "stupid" (which is at least more straightforward) then i'm sorry but i guess my previous assessment about you was spot on. And ofcourse to top it of in the next comment you put my (and others') opinion on the same level with supporting Tysha's mass rape.

If that's just "a disagreement" then my comment on you was just "an agreement" with the poster i quoted.

[Frey Pie]

What WK was saying (with which you agreed) was that my (and others') opinion was "sinking us lower than ever before." And you didn't just commented on "how odd" it was you said that what's worse is that many people agree. If you truly cannot understand how that is more insulting than calling someone "stupid" (which is at least more straightforward) then i'm sorry but i guess my previous assessment about you was spot on. And ofcourse to top it of in the next comment you put my (and others') opinion on the same level with supporting Tysha's mass rape.

If that's just "a disagreement" then my comment on you was just "an agreement" with the poster i quoted.

Ok in that case if i insulted you i apologise. My comment was not fully thought out and so i take it back

[Kolantero]

Ok in that case if i insulted you i apologise. My comment was not fully thought out and so i take it back

I apologize for what i said as well then

[Naathi Prince]

Not necessarily. As i said Addam Marbrand could have drawn out some lords to defend there homes also, but wouldnt have been as brutal. Now he may not have been as effective, but it was the preemptive attack on Tywins part that seems to have won it. His men attacked suddenly, and beat a host over eight times smaller then theres. Edmure i believe, was still training and bringing together his host when this happened and so he had no chance to raise more before Jaime was on him. After that the Riverlands were split, and had nobody to form a proper resistance.

Were there any other options? As i said, once beaten Tywin could have made them petty lords, taking away most of there power and money, making it si they cant rebel again, or would never gain support to do so. He could have married a daughter of one of the Houses and so secured there allegiance that way and in doing so taking there power and making it his own. Were any of these options thought of? Or were they not feasible for some unknown reason?

Sending Ser Addam would have been half as effective. If Daven Lannister and Ser Addam are burning crops and such, maybe lords will keep back a portion of their strength, but with Ser Gregor about, they wanted to have most of their men with them. Tywin's strategy and Tyrion's machinations won the war for House Lannister.

As far as the Reynes and Tarbecks go, they didn't submit. THey didn't bend the knee. They revolted over and over again and this was the only way to ensure they didn't do so again. Not to mention the fact that it gave him a fearsome reputation for the rest of his life.

[Southron_Ambitions]

Cersei does what she can to emulate Tywin, and she has inherited his ruthlessness. She missed out on inheriting his intellect, though.

Tyrion appears to be Tywin come again despite himself. Tyrion has redeeming qualities that Tywin and Cersei lack, but he also has Tywin's brains and ambitions.

[Damar]

I never said that the walk of shame was perfectly fine, but in light of everything else Tywin has done, slut-shaming his father's mistress for acting above her station is really the most minor of crimes he has committed. He didn't have her raped by the entire garrison or killed her entire family and burn down her home just to set an example.

And seeing how having someone walk around naked is 'sexual abuse', does this mean the High Septon sexually abused Cersei?

[Naathi Prince]

Cersei does what she can to emulate Tywin, and she has inherited his ruthlessness. She missed out on inheriting his intellect, though.

Tyrion appears to be Tywin come again despite himself. Tyrion has redeeming qualities that Tywin and Cersei lack, but he also has Tywin's brains and ambitions.

What qualities does Tyrion possess that Tywin doesn't? Besides an overfondness for being drunk.

[David Selig]

What qualities does Tyrion possess that Tywin doesn't? Besides an overfondness for being drunk.

Tyrion has a bit of conscience and some compassion, Tywin is totally lacking in both of those.

[Southron_Ambitions]

What qualities does Tyrion possess that Tywin doesn't? Besides an overfondness for being drunk.

We don't have a Tywin point of view, so we don't know if he had a secret soft side, but I highly doubt that Tywin would ever have fallen in love with a hooker, or rode a pig in a fake joust. Tyrion has a softer, compassionate side that Tywin never showed.