Tywin - more similar to Cersei than we thought?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

We all know Tyrion is "Tywin writ small" and the parallels are obvious. But there are also a lot of parallels between Cersei and Tywin.

This thread is focussed on Tywin, not on Cersei. I will list some important events in Tywin's life and try to build a picture of his character to compare it to Cersei afterwards.

Genna Lannister's marriage to Emmon Frey

Tywin is furious. He considers a match with a non-heir son of the most powerful bannerman of the Riverlands an insult. Granted, it is way less than could be expected.

Tywin contradicts his father in full view before a hundred guests, not in private, where something could have been done.

Lady Tarbeck imprisoning three Lannister hostages

Tytos Lannister arrests Lord Tarbeck because he got to uppity. In return Lady Tarbeck takes three Lannister hostages, Tywin's cousins, to press him free.

Tywin suggests a sharp lesson, he wants to return Lord Tarbeck in three pieces to show strength and wastes not a single thought what this would mean for his cousins.

Tywin crushes the Reynes and Tarbecks

Tywin ends the power struggle in the Westerlands in the most brutal way possible.

Tywin sexually abuses his stepmother

After Tytos' death, he forces the woman Tytos loved to do a walk of shame. As far as we know, for no other reason than Tytos loving a commoner.

Tywin needlessly makes an enemy out of a friend (Dorne)

Joanna Lannister was close friends with the ruling princess of Dorne. She forged a strong alliance and the women intended to secure it with a marriage. Either a bride for Tywin's heir Jaime or the somewhat more age-appropriate Oberyn-Cersei.

But Joanna dies in childbirth and Tywin intends his daughter to be Queen of the Seven Kingdoms. Very well, Jaime still needs a bride and one less eligible maiden out of five betters Cersei's chances on Rhaegar.

Tywin refuses and offers his newborn dwarf son. That's a completely unnecessary insult. Tyrion won't inherit anything and has little chances to make something out of himself, he offers nothing to Elia. He is excpected to die soon and even if he lives, Elia would be 30+ before they can do the naughty, the major part of her child-bearing years wasted. And of course Tyrion is a dward with all the accompagnying prejudices.

It makes an enemy out of a friend and probably starts Elia's road to Rhaegar. For absolutely nothing.

Lord Crakehall goes for a marriage alliance between Casterley Rock and Riverrun

Sumner Crakehall, for whom Jaime squires, sends Jaime on an unnecessary errand to Riverrun where Hoster Tully seats him close to Lysa. It's pretty clear those two try to make a match and it's a politically sound one. Lysa Tully would grant Jaime access into the North-Riverlands-Vale-Stormlands power block and she is the only available bride from a strong house remaining.

But why Sumner Crakehall? Shouldn't Tywin be the one to do that? Crakehall would never go against Lannister's own plans, that leaves Tywin not planning anything for his heir as explanation. Which is kinda dumb. Political marriages are necessary.

Jaime joins the Kingsguard

Tywin's heir is suddenly unavailable, leaving Tyrion whom Tywin scornes and Cersei. I'll come back later

Tywin brutally murders Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon and sacks Kings Landing

It's pretty clear Tywin intended to teach Dorne "a sharp lesson" for interfering in his plans with Rhaegar. The Mountain has already a reputation for possibly murdering his own father and sister as well as disfiguring his brother and Ser Amory Lorch has no temper at all, Rhaenys could never enrage him to murder her so brutally. It was done on Tywin's orders. The brutal sacking of KL fits right into the picture.

it doesn't gain Tywin much, he would be in the same position post-Aerys whether he sacked KL or not. Either Robert marries Lyanna, or Cersei is still the only eligible bride and a rich plum for a new king on a shaky throne.

Tywin does't remarry

Jaime is in the Kingsguard, Cersei's children will be Baratheons and Tywin flatout refuses to acknowledge Tyrion. The obvious solution? Marry again (Tywin's only ~40), father a son and pack Tyrion off to the maesters or septons. It would be easy, a child dwarf can't raise an army to object. Tywin doesn't. It would yield another ally by the way.

Tywin attacks the Riverlands

Lady Stark arrests Tyrion in the king's own name. Tyrion himself comments on the best solution: Have Robert try him in Kings Landing and let the Starks present their non-existing proof. But "Cersei would see the insult, not the opportunity."

It isn't Cersei that misses the opportunity, it's Tywin. He attacks the Riverlands, the most powerful alliance ever formed in the Seven Kingdoms, all on his own without allies, breaking the King's peace, something that Robert takes very seriously.

Tywin get's beaten by Robb Stark

Tywin bets his entire strategy on Walder Frey's whims and severely underestimates Robb Stark. As a result, the Lannisters are beaten and done for, all the Westermen including Tyrion agree on that. Because Tywin thought everybody would do exactly as he wished.

Tywin squanders Dorne - again

Tyrion did the impossible and secured an alliance, however tenuous, with Dorne. Tywin shats on it. He refuses to pay Dorne's price in Armory Lorch and Gregor Clegane.

Summary

- Tywin Lannister doesn't care one whiff for his relatives (or friends if he had any)

- Tywin Lannister wastes every alliance somebody else presents him on a silver platter

- Tywin Lannister reacts emotionally to any slight against him and strikes back in suicidal fashion

- Tywin Lannister assumes everything goes exactly as he planned

Sounds familiar, doesn't it? It's exactly what Cersei does in Feast with the Tyrells, the Faith etc. etc.

[TalalOfDorne]

I always though that Cersei was also "Tywins son". Its also funny how he tries to do things "for the good of house Lannister" yet his downfall was because he was a terrible father.

[The Broke Howard Hughes]

You've sold me!

[Faceless Assassin]

Cersei learned a lot from her father in terms of people relationships. But Cersei is not a good leader. She is not good at thinking ahead, and planning on the long term. Whereas Tywin always tries to think one step ahead of his enemies and predict their move.

Cersei didn't think ahead about allowing the Faith of the Seven to have an army, which I'm pretty sure any good ruler would never have allowed.

[LuisDantas]

Never found Tyrion much like Tywin, myself. The parallels with Cersei are much more convincing to me.

Both of them are way too worried about the power and reputation of House Lannister. In that, they are quite unlike Tyrion, who has a healthy desire to enjoy life until and unless a clear reason not to presents itself.

Also, ultimately Tyrion is a far more compassionate person than either his sister or his father, that are both broken beyond repair.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Cersei learned a lot from her father in terms of people relationships. But Cersei is not a good leader. She is not good at thinking ahead, and planning on the long term. Whereas Tywin always tries to think one step ahead of his enemies and predict their move.

Cersei didn't think ahead about allowing the Faith of the Seven to have an army, which I'm pretty sure any good ruler would never have allowed.

That's exactly what I tried to show - Tywin doesn't as well.

[Yukle]

Summary

- Tywin Lannister doesn't care one whiff for his relatives (or friends if he had any)

- Tywin Lannister wastes every alliance somebody else presents him on a silver platter

- Tywin Lannister reacts emotionally to any slight against him and strikes back in suicidal fashion

- Tywin Lannister assumes everything goes exactly as he planned

In Tywin's defence to each point:

He seems to want Jaime to be his heir even though he is in the Kingsguard. Failing that, Cersei. The Martells can pass family estates to women and as Lord of the Westerlands, he could probably decree the same thing. The fact that this might affect his bannermen is likely of little concern to him.

He makes extremely good use of the Tyrell alliance that he has and exploited the Targ's loyalty in Robert's Rebellion. He pretended to be loyal right up until he sacked the city, so he managed to use that alliance to its fullest and then made the best of the new one immediately by ensuring that he was connected to the new royal house.

As for his emotional rashness, he seems more calculating to me. And I don't think he does think everything has gone to plan, as shown when he loses Whispering Wood and decides to flee.

[Frey Pie]

Good thread Blue Eyes. There are a lot of parallels and Cersei certainly seems to think of herself as Tywin with teats. The main thing with the two is the ridiculous pride and how hung up they both are with there family name. Its well known in life that you cant get hung up on what other people think of you-your always going to have detractors, or people who see slights where there are none etc. This seems to be a lesson Tywin never learns

The alliance part is well noted. Perhaps Tywins feelings on Dorne is purely due to there close familial ties with the Targs? People always talk of his political prowess, and how this won the war but i never see it. LF delivered the Tyells, Tyrion the Dornish, and Walder and Roose pretty much wrap themselves up for him.

That said i expect a lot of Tywin defenders-hes got many fans

[Yukle]

That said i expect a lot of Tywin defenders-hes got many fans

I'm not among them. I'm not sure why I thought of any points in his favour. :P

He's such a militant and hostile person with a cold heart. He's one of few characters I hated at first and still hate now.

[Frey Pie]

I'm not among them. I'm not sure why I thought of any points in his favour. :P

He's such a militant and hostile person with a cold heart. He's one of few characters I hated at first and still hate now.

Hes easy to hate IMHO, but i also feel a grudging respect for him for what he accomplished, however he did it. I think he deserved to go out as he did though

[mcb]

There's something to it, I admit.

But, unlike Cersei, Tywin can make allies, even if it's only for one heist. He managed to successfully pull off the Red Wedding, in exchange for some favors to the Spicers, the Freys and the Boltons. Tywin, in general, was way more effective. Cersei is just a blonde Wile E. Coyote.

In Tywin's defence to each point:

1. He seems to want Jaime to be his heir even though he is in the Kingsguard. Failing that, Cersei. The Martells can pass family estates to women and as Lord of the Westerlands, he could probably decree the same thing. The fact that this might affect his bannermen is likely of little concern to him.

2. He makes extremely good use of the Tyrell alliance that he has and exploited the Targ's loyalty in Robert's Rebellion. He pretended to be loyal right up until he sacked the city, so he managed to use that alliance to its fullest and then made the best of the new one immediately by ensuring that he was connected to the new royal house.

3. As for his emotional rashness, he seems more calculating to me. And I don't think he does think everything has gone to plan, as shown when he loses Whispering Wood and decides to flee.

1. Tywin wanting Jaime to inherit CR is actually very Cersei of him. White cloaks serve for life and don't inherit shit, accept the reality and think of plan B - that would be the rational approach.

2. That brutality was unnecessary. If Tywin had kept his neutrality through the whole rebellion, Cersei would still have been the best match for Robert, and Jon Arryn would still have argued that a marriage pact was the best way to bring the Westerlands into King's peace. And it would have backfired spectacularly if Ned was the one in charge. Tywin didn't personally know Robert, or at least not well enough, to correctly assess his reaction to the sight of murdered children. Hell, Bob was the one who had sent his personal physician to take care of Barristan Selmy! He had been famously generous toward fallen enemies through the entire rebellion, it was Tywin's great luck (as usual) that the sight of murdered Targaryen children somehow unleashed Robert's inner asshole.

3. Yes, he was way less impulsive than Cersei. Still, his cold calculations surprisingly often led to the same effects ("let's sack KL! let's burn the Riverlands! let's nuke the motherfuckers!") as if he was a raving maniac.

[Yukle]

That makes a lot of sense. Especially since Cersei tries to emulate her father. She doesn't do a good job but it's not until you read her POV that it really stands out.

The Sack of King's Landing, for which your term of "brutality" is an understatement if anything, was horrific. I can't believe that the people ever forgive Lannisters for that! Who do they care who the King or Queen is when they would just rather live?

His real colours came out in that war. All he had to do was secure the keep and his soldiers were hardly exhausted men looking to let off steam. He's evil. Moreso than Cersei, who is just crazy.

[Castellan]

This is all interesting because I have an image of Tywin as the hard but effective man who gets great power but you show a Tywin who seems to recklessly reject as many opportunites as he takes. Will have to re-read later and have a think about it.

I think its sad that Cersei spends her whole life trying to please him and think like him but once he sees what a disaster Joffrey is, he is so angry he begins to see her as the child that has failed its duty, and eventually wants to send her off to marry the most dissolute man in Dorne, mainly just to get her away from Tommen and partly to tackle those incest allegations.

[Axrendale]

Tywin as Cersei? Not even in the slightest.

There's a reason that quite literally everyone who comments on Cersei's pretensions to be the second coming of Tywin thinks that the very notion is ludicrous. He makes mistakes and has his weaknesses and insecurities just like every major figure in the series. But for all that, he is undoubtedly a skilled politician, and a far shrewder figure than the OP gives him credit for.

To address some of the points raised in the OP:

Lady Tarbeck imprisoning three Lannister hostages

Tytos Lannister arrests Lord Tarbeck because he got to uppity. In return Lady Tarbeck takes three Lannister hostages, Tywin's cousins, to press him free.

Tywin suggests a sharp lesson, he wants to return Lord Tarbeck in three pieces to show strength and wastes not a single thought what this would mean for his cousins.

Tywin's solution to the problem was actually a lot more clever than you give it credit for. He saw straight to the heart of the weakness in Lady Tarbeck's strategy: the only thing that she can possibly gain from this gambit is getting her husband back alive. If Lord Tarbeck dies, then his wife is stuck in a lose-lose situation: either she can killed the hostages, which will gain her nothing except the wrath of the Lannisters, who will undoubtedly destroy her in retaliation, or she can release them and lose all credibility. Either way, a dangerous enemy has been eliminated, and House Lannister comes away with its prestige intact.

It would have been a very shrewd manoeuvre.

Tywin crushes the Reynes and Tarbecks

Tywin ends the power struggle in the Westerlands in the most brutal way possible.

With a single concentrated act of brutality, he ensured that he would never have to worry about any of his vassals betraying him again, for the rest of his life.

The shrewdness behind Tywin's ruthlessness shines through, particularly in the anecdote about the truculence of Lord Farman, which Tywin put an end to by sending him a harpist.

Lord Crakehall goes for a marriage alliance between Casterley Rock and Riverrun

Sumner Crakehall, for whom Jaime squires, sends Jaime on an unnecessary errand to Riverrun where Hoster Tully seats him close to Lysa. It's pretty clear those two try to make a match and it's a politically sound one. Lysa Tully would grant Jaime access into the North-Riverlands-Vale-Stormlands power block and she is the only available bride from a strong house remaining. But why Sumner Crakehall? Shouldn't Tywin be the one to do that? Crakehall would never go against Lannister's own plans, that leaves Tywin not planning anything for his heir as explanation. Which is kinda dumb. Political marriages are necessary.

It is referred to numerous times (in Jaime's memories, and mentioned by Tywin) that it was Tywin himself who was hoping to wed Jaime to Lysa, and who was negotiating with Hoster Tully to arrange this. At the time that Jaime joined the Kingsguard, the arrangements had been finalized, and the betrothal was about to go through (this was one of the reasons that Cersei was able to persuade Jaime to take the White Cloak).

Tywin attacks the Riverlands

Lady Stark arrests Tyrion in the king's own name. Tyrion himself comments on the best solution: Have Robert try him in Kings Landing and let the Starks present their non-existing proof. But "Cersei would see the insult, not the opportunity."

It isn't Cersei that misses the opportunity, it's Tywin. He attacks the Riverlands, the most powerful alliance ever formed in the Seven Kingdoms, all on his own without allies, breaking the King's peace, something that Robert takes very seriously.

Tywin was absolutely right to go on the offensive, from a realpolitik point of view. Tyrion's well-being isn't the point - it's the prestige of House Lannister that was at stake. A House whose members can be taken captive with impunity is a joke.

And it is worthing noting that Tywin's plan of attack came within a hair of working. The Riverlands were crushed, the Vale didn't intervene, and the Stormlands were taken out of the picture by Robert's death. It was only Robb Stark's unexpected victory over Jaime in the Whispering Wood that threatened to undo the situation for the Lannisters.

Tywin get's beaten by Robb Stark

Tywin bets his entire strategy on Walder Frey's whims and severely underestimates Robb Stark. As a result, the Lannisters are beaten and done for, all the Westermen including Tyrion agree on that. Because Tywin thought everybody would do exactly as he wished.

The Lannisters were a long, long way from being "beaten and done for" after the Whispering Wood. Tywin's strategy to retrieve the situation - occupying Harrenhal, using his reavers to draw the riverlords away from Robb's army, blocking off the pass of the Golden Tooth with Forley Prester's men, and building a second host to crush the Starks/Tullys in a pincer movement - was perfectly sound. It was only the chance discovery of a goat track that enabled Robb to invade the Westerlands and take back the strategic initiative.

Even then, Tywin's finest hour as a cunning war leader came when he turned what should have been a disaster for the Lannisters into a windfall, by plotting with Sybell Spicer to orchestrate the "defection" of the Westerlings to Robb's cause - kickstarting the chain of events that led to the Lannisters winning the war against the North.

Tywin may have failed to beat the Young Wolf with swords and spears but he destroyed him with quills and ravens.

Summary

Though he makes mistakes, Tywin has a good record of political calculation. He worked hard to build stable relations with House Tyrell - Cersei began working to destroy that alliance as soon as she took power for herself. His responses to most situations are rooted in logic and calculation, and he knows the value of using disposable catspaws and plausible deniability. Above all, he knows the value of patience. Jaime had it right:

"His Sister liked to think of herself as Lord Tywin with teats, but she was wrong. Their father had been as relentless and implacable as a glacier, where Cersei was all wildfire, especially when thwarted...She does not lack for wits but she has no judgement, and no patience".

[Shadoom]

And it is worthing noting that Tywin's plan of attack came within a hair of working. The Riverlands were crushed, the Vale didn't intervene, and the Stormlands were taken out of the picture by Robert's death. It was only Robb Stark's unexpected victory over Jaime in the Whispering Wood that threatened to undo the situation for the Lannisters.

To add to this, with Ned in King's Landing and the North being ruled by a teenager, it was unlikely that the North would be able to intervene either; and Cersei's status as Queen meant that any royal intervention could be stalled until the Riverlands had fallen. It got even better when Robert died and Ned became a hostage - the Baratheons were out of the picture, and Ned and Sansa could be used to stop the North getting involved.

The attack on the Riverlands was very well planned, and became pretty much perfect thanks to Cersei. It only failed because of Joffrey's stupidity (or perhaps Littlefinger's manipulation of him) and Rob's unexpected talent.

[Theda Baratheon]

Good points!

[The Mother of The Others]

So who was Tywin hiding his whoring from anyway? From Cersei & Tyrion & Jaime? From everyone? He's Tywin freakin Lannister. What does he care if the whole world knows! But he did care to hide it. Maybe he thought it was prudent. A machiavellian thing. Put on a good front in public so you're thought of as classy, and hide your personal weaknesses from opponents so they can't use it against you? I guess men like Randyll may have lost respect for Tywin if it had become known, and Ty wanted to be able to command those men. Eh. Whatever. It seems silly, the whole thing. But then hypocrisy is silly, which is why the lateshow comedians mock it so.

[Pod The Impaler]

Cersei is certainly her father's daughter.

At least in the sense that she inherited all his malevolence (the over-the-top cruelty and callousness towards others).

Tyrion inherited the political cunning, though.

Hard to say what Jaime inherited from Tywin - the principle of only following his own advice, and intimidating his bannermen ? Two-handed Jaime was more Tywin-ish than one-handed, but Aunt Genna was perhaps right.

[Ramsay Gimp]

-But his objective wasn't the wellbeing of his cousins. It was the strength and prestige of House Lannister. So if by "similar to Cersei" you mean cold-hearted or sociopathic, than yea, sure. But not rash or stupid.

-As Axrendale said, Tywin himself wanted to marry Jaime to Lysa. He also immediately sets out to secure another alliance with Cersei in ASOS. That is hardly someone who "wastes alliances". Indeed, Cersei's royal marriage is itself big evidence against the suggestion.

-The whole "Tywin was lying to Tyrion and wanted Elia to be raped and murdered for personal reasons" theory is one I just don't see at all, though many others do. Matter of opinion I guess

-Tywin lost some battles to Robb Stark. He also won some against the Riverlords, Roose Bolton, and Stannis. Not to mention the war

[The Dragon King]

Summary

- Tywin Lannister doesn't care one whiff for his relatives (or friends if he had any)

- Tywin Lannister wastes every alliance somebody else presents him on a silver platter

- Tywin Lannister reacts emotionally to any slight against him and strikes back in suicidal fashion

- Tywin Lannister assumes everything goes exactly as he planned

Sounds familiar, doesn't it? It's exactly what Cersei does in Feast with the Tyrells, the Faith etc. etc.

Alliances work both ways, it can be a problem if you ally does something stupid when then involves you. Tywin would enter into an alliance if it made sense for his family, he wouldnt make one for the sake of making one. He was smart to hold off marrying his kids to the Martells, why marry your daughter to House Martell when you can potentially marry her to the Targs?

That said, he's not perfect, he's made mistakes but there is no one who I'd rather have on my side than Tywin, he's all about making sure him and his succeed.