Heresy 43

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Am I the only one that thinks when the KM tells her she can leave, he isn't be honest with her? Seems to me that she had learned too much and the only way they let her go is death. That for all his talk about her leaving, if she tried that a FM would come after her?

I was suspicious of this too. However until she puts on a face mask I don't think she knows anything that is a very big secret. It's new to us and to Arya, but she knows nothing of Bravos and neither do we.

If people come to the temple and pay to have people assasinated, and others come to the temple specifically knowing that they can help them die, then Arya isn't in too deep because its common knowledge. That's how I remember it anyways.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

And following your train of thought, did Ned cause this by giving a spot in the crypts to Lyanna? He filled up the crypts, recognized the meaning of the dead direwolf mother and went to KL intending to die - to come back leading the Others?

I suppose its possible. I'm generally of the camp that assumes as a second son who was never meant to lead that he wasn't prepped and told all of the secrets that a Stark in Winterfell should know. And what he does know that he doesn't necessarily believe because he heard them as ghost stories rather than from a talk from his father of things he would have to deal with.

[Black Crow]

This is the part that doesn't seem logical though. The older ones at the top level are near the entrance. This arrangement's makes sense until you consider that there are said to be many levels. If they had to consistently enlarge the crypts, they would have to move all of the tombs from the first level to a newly constructed lower level every time they were enlarged since we're told that the lower levels actually have the OLDEST tombs. It seems like the way to do it would be to place the tombs as close to the entrance as possible, and then when a new layer is built, start as close to the entrance on that layer. So you'd have the absolute oldest near the entrance to the crypts from the surface.

We don't know for sure if there are multiple levels. Both Theon and Jon(I believe Bran says that Jon told him this) say that the oldest lower levels are collapsed, but neither of these characters ever actually say that they've seen it. Perhaps this points to a timeline issue that's been hinted at by the maesters, but its almost as if there was a set amount of space allocated for the crypts and they're just now on to the very last spots.

I've always wondered if this is significant. Did they always plan it to last a certain time period? Perhaps they weren't expecting to survive the next long winter? Which makes 'Winter is coming' sound more like "The end is nigh".

I'm inclined to agree with most of this insofar as I think that the crypts we've seen through the eyes of the characters are the only tombs and that if there aren't so many as expected that's down to the infeasibly stretched timelines. In other words the first of the statues represents the first of the Starks to be buried in the crypt and that there are no more buried at a lower level. As to the future though I didn't get the impressin at all that they were down to the last few spots, but that there are a few more vacancies and once they fill up its a matter of picks, shovels and masonry...

The existence of the lower levels and their being collapsed or partially collapsed is something we have to take on trust because nobody's been down there. My take on it remains that there's something very important down there which has to be protected, which is why there must be a Stark in Winterfell to do just that. Now of course we have no Stark and both Mance and Lady Dustin sniffing about...

The collapsed and dangerous bit I don't believe and still maintain its just to discourage exploring

[Metis]

so would the Kings be guarding the Starks? i think it's suggested when Bran and Rickon successfully hide in the crypts. more, they seem to instinctively go there after Ned's death and hide there when attacked.

If the bones remember, I wonder what the bones in the crypt could reveal.

There is such a strong sense that the dead Starks are still present in and around their tombs. I'd love to see Jon commune with them somehow before warging into Ghost (if that is indeed what he does after being stabbed). I'm extrapolating from varamyr Six-skins' having a bit of lag time before taking up his second life in One Eye, although perhaps that was just because of the distance between them. Would Jon be able to though? In his dreams of Winterfell he is always cut off from the Starks, as ghost was from his litter mates.

[Little Wing]

The trailer premiers tonight, guys! so, be on the look out - it won't be in my time zone :laugh:

[Black Crow]

I'm intriged by Rickon's assertion that he has seen his father (Ned) in the crypts. This was of course before the raven came with the news, but I'm not convinced he actually did see him - but was it somebody who looked like him, not a million miles removed from his brother Benjen?

With the swords still in place to hold the Starks in their graves I think we're too early in the story at this point to be looking at them walking, but I'm also mindful of the Bael the Bard story and how they remained hidden in the crypts - presumably in the lower levels - for a year.

So did Rickon see Benjen looking for something and is there a connection with the ADwD chapter headed A Ghost in Winterfell?

OK I know there have been whole threads devoted to the hooded man, speculation as to whether he's Benjen, the Blackfish, or umpteen other candidates Theon himself included, but I wonder if there may be some mileage in approaching it from the angle of the crypts because its worth bearing in mind that the "ghost" chapter is the Theon one immediately following the opening of the entrance to the crypts.

[TheButcherCrow]

This is not directly related to the discussion but I thought it interesting (apologies if this has already been broached). So I'm re-reading the Ghost in Winterfell chapter now and I found this quote:

“The gods have turned against us,” old Lord Locke was heard to say in the Great Hall. “This is their wroth. A wind as cold as hell itself and snows that never end. We are cursed.”

Do the Old Gods have a hell? I never imagined they did, the "gods" Locke is speaking of have to be the seven right? If so, then The Faith's version of hell is cold ? That has to be significant, outside of the obvious inversion of our own ideas of hell (Dante aside), it must speak to the as yet unseen link that brings The Faith into the whole "fire & ice" equation.

[Tyryan Lannister]

This is not directly related to the discussion but I thought it interesting (apologies if this has already been broached). So I'm re-reading the Ghost in Winterfell chapter now and I found this quote:

Do the Old Gods have a hell? I never imagined they did, the "gods" Locke is speaking of have to be the seven right? If so, then The Faith's version of hell is cold ? That has to be significant, outside of the obvious inversion of our own ideas of hell (Dante aside), it must speak to the as yet unseen link that brings The Faith into the whole "fire & ice" equation.

Well, back in Game, The Ned does ponder whether he will soon join that "frozen hell reserved for Starks" which I always thought of as an Old God thing, especially considering that he views himself as doomed to go there due to his execution of Lady

ETA: and I believe that Tyrion mentions something about Tywin burning in some hell, so I'm pretty sure that the Faith's Seven Hells are flaming infernos, or at least some of them--maybe each of the Seven Hells has a different brutal climate? And the Locke's are Northerners, worshipers of the Old Gods--I highly doubt any Locke, let alone The Locke, would make a serious reference to the Faith

[TheButcherCrow]

Well, back in Game, The Ned does ponder whether he will soon join that "frozen hell reserved for Starks"

Forgot about that...

ETA: and I believe that Tyrion mentions something about Tywin burning in some hell

...and that :bang: :dunce: Many thanks Lord Hand :drunk:

[Tyryan Lannister]

And now for something completely different

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/20/erika-johansens-queen-of-_n_2728294.html

"A female version of George R. R. Martin's "Game of Thrones"?????

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Yeah, not gonna work, sorry--highly doubt that this author is going to go anywhere near as in depth with the research as Martin has (which really is what makes the story so great, that plus his TV-screenwriting style of writing)--and also, just Game of Thrones or A Song of Ice and Fire??? Oh, journalists and they're lack of actual research into what the stuff is called...

[Black Crow]

Well, back in Game, The Ned does ponder whether he will soon join that "frozen hell reserved for Starks" which I always thought of as an Old God thing, especially considering that he views himself as doomed to go there due to his execution of Lady

From Lord Locke's point of view a Long Winter probably is what he and everyone else in the North would regard as Hell. Yes they're more used to cold and snow than southerners but that very intimacy means they have a frame of reference in imaginining (or even experiencing) what Hell is really like. A fiery Hell on the other hand is a pretty alien concept.

So far as Ned Stark's point of view goes its very hard, in the light of everything else we've discussed, not to tie this "frozen hell reserved for Starks" into a more specific connection and that perhaps if Jon, as we suspect, will shortly have to journey north into the Lands of Always Winter it won't be as a random hero thing but because he is a son of Winterfell and there's a place reserved for him up there.

[notakneeler]

I love this thread but admit i have not read every post.

Have you discussed the role of the firewymrs in the world north of the wall? If northoros is the realm of the cotf and the others, then the firewyrms of northoros that destroyed hardhome must have done it at their command.

Additionally, how can we accoint for all the subterranean chambers we see..such as the one Bran is traped in, the lower crypts under Winterfell, even the chamber under casterly rock in Jame's dream where the ghosts of eddard and the kingswatch ride up to him...without considering the possibility that these crypts were MADE and not just naturl occurences. Have the COTF been riddling westeros with underground chambers- making them lords of the underworld?

sorry if this has been discussed and rejected.

[Black Crow]

There's no evidence at all at this stage as to what destroyed Hardhome.

The caves as described appear to be natural except where they have been "improved". Generally speaking though the hollow hills or Sidhe hills where the Children live or used to live are a very common feature of Faerie legend. In other words although nothing in Martin's world can be absolutely ruled out we're looking at Faerie lore rather than wryms and as such there can be expected to be an extensive underworld.

[notakneeler]

You are absolutely right,Black Crow, we don't know what destroyed HArdhome- which allows us to speculate. The thing about the aftermath that caught my attention was the screaming from the caves, and (trusting my lousy memory here) the fires in the caves. People DO scream, but can't keep it up indefinitely. Sounds like creatures screaming to me. Large, UPSET, scary, firemaking creatures. What would make firewyrms, who are seen so rarely they are legends, apear in the caves and stay there screaming?

As to the caves of the Sidhe, yes, tht is part of Sidhe lore, but we are encountering very deep underground caves quite south of the wall, outside of Sidhe territory- such as under Winterfell, and according to Jamies dream- under castelry rock. PURE conjecture on my part, but I would be delighted to read that there is an underground passage leading under the lake to the Isle of FACES.

The cotf are north of the wall according to the heresy thread. Right? But a network of underground caves would allow them great undetected freedom of movement south of the wall. The wierwood network in the south is gone and that was their source of information and possible influence. In the many hundreds of years since they were sequestered in northos, maybe they woud look to alternate ays to check on the south.

just wondering.

[Moonfox]

What if they weren't Fyrewyrms, but Icewyrms?

I'm still a bit.. tantalized by the fact GRRM wrote the book "The Ice Dragon". If Dragons are fire made flesh, what would/could an Ice dragon be/do? (maybe hold up a certain wall?)

And another clue, We know the prophesy said something about "waking dragons from stone". Course we think of Dany waking her brood with blood magic. However, Mel just seems obsessed about a Stone Dragon. Don't we even have a stone dragon bursting forth from someone's forehead in one of Dany's visions?

[theriveryeti]

And now for something completely different

http://www.huffingto..._n_2728294.html

"A female version of George R. R. Martin's "Game of Thrones"?????

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Yeah, not gonna work, sorry--highly doubt that this author is going to go anywhere near as in depth with the research as Martin has (which really is what makes the story so great, that plus his TV-screenwriting style of writing)--and also, just Game of Thrones or A Song of Ice and Fire??? Oh, journalists and they're lack of actual research into what the stuff is called...

I think GRRM created a bunch of interesting, fully-realized female characters in his saga. Why the need for a "female version?"

And agreed, good luck to the author making an equally deep storyline as Martin has.

[Ser Leftwich]

Another re-read and I found and interesting comparison by Ned.

"“No,” Ned said with sadness in his voice. “Now it ends.” As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. “Eddard!” she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death." AGoT p. 425

What would cause Ned to think that death has blue eyes? Maybe the North remembers more than it knows that it remembers.

[Black Crow]

Certainly sounds like it - a good catch there and similar to the one Nanother noted about Ned referring to the white winds, and of course to the cold hell reserved for Starks. Add in his reaction when Jon points out that the Gods have sent one direwolf for each of his children and it all adds up to Ned knowing, but with a nod to the Musgrave Ritual, but not necessarily understanding a lot more about what's really gone on than he admitted to in life.

ETA: just realised I'm up over 5,000 posts, really must go and lie down in a darkened room or better still put my slippers on and sit by the fire with some railroad modelling magazines...

[Budj]

And now for something completely different

http://www.huffingto..._n_2728294.html

"A female version of George R. R. Martin's "Game of Thrones"?????

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Yeah, not gonna work, sorry--highly doubt that this author is going to go anywhere near as in depth with the research as Martin has (which really is what makes the story so great, that plus his TV-screenwriting style of writing)--and also, just Game of Thrones or A Song of Ice and Fire??? Oh, journalists and they're lack of actual research into what the stuff is called...

What actually made me want to die is that she got inspired off of a speech by Barack Obama when he was still a senator. I'm not particularly political and regardless of the party affiliation I would feel the same way, but that just sounds so ridiculous... I'm sure whatever motivated that will be glorious.

[ViennaGirl]

What actually made me want to die is that she got inspired off of a speech by Barack Obama when he was still a senator. I'm not particularly political and regardless of the party affiliation I would feel the same way, but that just sounds so ridiculous... I'm sure whatever motivated that will be glorious.

That jumped out at me, too. Huh. I'm totally political and it sounded weird. But what if it's true? What if there will be a well-written fantasy series similar to ASOIAF? That would be good, right? We would read that! All of us!