Thoughts on Jaqen H'ghar's Purpose

[brinson2000]

The purpose ofTtis thread is to hear some people's opinions on why Jaqen H'ghar is in Oldtown and why he had to kill Pate in order to get the key to the Citadel. Quite a few things will be a assumed when discussing this topic; including:

1. The Alchemist IS Jaqen H'ghar....after reading all the books mulitple times I am assuming this as fact, because from all the books so far GRRM takes great detail into describing his characters and I do not believe it is just happenstance that he described two seperate people exactly the same. We saw in ADWD that Faceless men get their faces from the people that come to die in the Temple of the Many-Faced God, as well as they have their original face they were born with. I'm not sure if this is JH's original face or one he was given but I do believe it was him. In response to other threads on this idea, I think that through magic the FM have the ability to "store" faces that they recieve from the temple and can then use them whenever then need to, but I think the "hooked-nose" and gold tooth may be JH original "birth" face.

2. Jaqen H'ghar has a greater purpose that has been set since the beginning of the series. I always wondered how a man with such great assassin skills and the ability to change his face whenever he wishes could get caught and imprisoned by some guard in Kings Landing. The only logical conclusion is that JH meant/wanted to be caught. And if this is true then he knew he would be meeting Arya and sets her entire life's journey to Braavos up from there. It seems obvious that his entire purpose was to meet Arya because he left immediately after he finished his debt to her. In Braavos during ADWD we see how serious and strenuous the training to become a Faceless Man is. These men are probably the most disciplined killers in the entire known world, even more so than the Unsullied because they have the ability to think for themselves. I ask again, How do you capture one of these men? Answer: Only if they want to be caught.

So with these assumptions in place, what is Jaqen H'ghar's purpose? Why has he taken this journey that lead him through captivity just to meet Arya and then changed faces and move on to Oldtown?

My answer to this question is the dragonglass candle. I have no idea what it's significance is or what power it holds. But the dragonglass candle burning again has been mentioned quite a few times in the books and seems to have great significance. I believe the Mage has one of the candles in the Citadel and maybe thats what JH is after. It's a total long shot but maybe this candle has something to do with bringing Jon Snow back (I'm streching here, I just want Jon Snow to come back somehow).

[Kasrith]

He's going to faceoff with Arya, who will have the upper hand and beat him because she won't "forget" who she is truly. It is known

[Theda Baratheon]

I often think about this, he's too skilled a character to just kind of fade away, especially if he is the FM in Oldtown which is almost a fact, to be honest. I'd really like to see him meet Arya again, and I love the idea of him wanting to be caught to set off Arya's destiny in motion, but other than that, I'm really not too sure what his end game or purpose actually is. I look forward to see if anyone comes of it.

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

Jaqen is probably seeking some secrets in the Citadel, I just can't see why he was in a dungeon in Kings Landing. I wonder if he knew about Arya before they met for the first time

about his quest in the Citadel, somre rumors say he's after some secret about dragons, how to kill them, because Braavos is a ex slaves city and they hate dragons and they will try to get rid of Dany's dragons

but that's just rumors, it's hard to find out what he wants, maybe it'll be revealed in TWOW

[Baelor Swyft]

Not sure what his endgame is, but I definitely don't think he's anti-dragons since for the time being he's buddied up with the group that appears to be pro-Dany. I don't believe in a million years there's the slightest chance anyone would trust a secret conspiracy to wishy-washy Pate, so they definitely know that Pate isn't Pate. Either Jaqen has deceived them of his intentions, Jaqen is currently pro-Dany, or Marwyn and Alleras are also anti-dragon.

These don't seem like people who would be easy to deceive, and they're bound to be very wary of intrusions so I don't think Jaqen has deceived them of his intentions. Marwyn has a history of being pro-magic (Qyburn mentions him being sympathetic to his ghost theory), and Alleras has an obvious reason to support Dany, so I don't think they're secretly anti-dragon. Therefore I definitely suspect that Jaqen is pro-Dany at the moment.

edited: grammar

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

I often think about this, he's too skilled a character to just kind of fade away, especially if he is the FM in Oldtown which is almost a fact, to be honest. I'd really like to see him meet Arya again, and I love the idea of him wanting to be caught to set off Arya's destiny in motion, but other than that, I'm really not too sure what his end game or purpose actually is. I look forward to see if anyone comes of it.

It's him

people recognized his gold tooth and the hooch nose

it's the same face Arya saw when he change his face

[FittleLinger]

Not sure what his endgame is, but I definitely don't think he's anti-dragons since for the time being he's buddied up with the group that appears to be pro-Dany. I don't believe in a million years there's the slightest chance anyone would trust a secret conspiracy to wishy-washy Pate, so they definitely know that Pate isn't Pate. Either Jaqen has deceived them of his intentions, Jaqen is currently pro-Dany, or Marwyn and Alleras are also anti-dragon.

These don't seem like people who would be easy to deceive, and they're bound to be very wary of intrusions so I don't think Jaqen has deceived them of his intentions. Marwyn has a history of being pro-magic (Qyburn mentions him being sympathetic to his ghost theory), and Alleras has an obvious reason to support Dany, so I don't think they're secretly anti-dragon. Therefore I definitely suspect that Jaqen is pro-Dany at the moment.

edited: grammar

Wait, what's that pro Dany group, the meisters? I think you are wrong, there is a strong case that they caused the death of the fragons directly or not. We know they are definitely anti-magic from the initiation ritual with the candles, and their actions and thoughts in general, so this also points out they would be anti magical creatures - dragons on top of that list.

Also, Marwyn is known and ridiculed for not being like the other maesters, and we have no idea what Sarella's game is. She might want to get the dragons for Dorne's sake, but she is a disguised sand snake - also a big exception of the general case.

So yeah, I think with what we have to this point, we can have the safer of the two assumptions that both the Citadel/FM are anti-dragons. A braavosi banker felt offended when Jon just jokingly mentioned a dragon.

[Theda Baratheon]

It's him

people recognized his gold tooth and the hooch nose

it's the same face Arya saw when he change his face

Yes I know, which is why I said it's pretty much fact. As pointed out, GRRM carefully describes them looking exactly the same.

[A Song of Tyrion's member]

This is such a stretch and I have no evidence to back this up, but its worth a shot:

There are two people who's intentions are basically unknown, yet it is obvious they are up to something big.

- Petyr Baelish

- JH.

We know that little finger has a gift when it comes to finding money, and we know that the FM are overwhelmingly expensive to hire. I wouldn't put it past little finger to have something to do with the FM. Besides, he did say something along the lines of, and I'm paraphrasing here, "if you never let your intentions be known you can never be punished for them".

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

Yes I know, which is why I said it's pretty much fact. As pointed out, GRRM carefully describes them looking exactly the same.

Sorry, I thought you were asking about it :drunk: really sorry

I think FM are anti-dragons, their headquarters is at Braavos, and Braavos hate Dragons and Valyrians, because of slavery and they are decendent of former slaves

Braavos hire FM work to get the books of how to kill dragons, that's what Jaqen is looking for I think, I wonder if Jaqen was in KL because he was looking for information from the pyromancers, as they killed the last dragon (in Aegon III reign of course)

[Baelor Swyft]

Wait, what's that pro Dany group, the meisters? I think you are wrong, there is a strong case that they caused the death of the fragons directly or not. We know they are definitely anti-magic from the initiation ritual with the candles, and their actions and thoughts in general, so this also points out they would be anti magical creatures - dragons on top of that list.

Also, Marwyn is known and ridiculed for not being like the other maesters, and we have no idea what Sarella's game is. She might want to get the dragons for Dorne's sake, but she is a disguised sand snake - also a big exception of the general case.

So yeah, I think with what we have to this point, we can have the safer of the two assumptions that both the Citadel/FM are anti-dragons. A braavosi banker felt offended when Jon just jokingly mentioned a dragon.

The pro-dragon group is the secret anti-Maester conspiracy of Marwyn, Alleras, "Pate" and now Sam. Marwyn has made it clear that he is contrary to the Maester's anti-magic New World Order (both in what he tells Sam, and hinted by what other characters such as Qyburn and MMD have said about him).

No matter what the FM and the Bank of Braavos may think about Dany, Jaqen doesn't appear to be anti-Dany. He may be working contrary to the FM, or the FM could be pro-Dany because she is freeing slaves, at this point nobody knows with certainty. But for Jaqen to be anti-Dany at this point, that means he had to deceive Marwyn and Alleras.

While that's technically possible, I find it very hard to believe. Marwyn tells Sam that he is in danger if the Maesters find out about Aemon's story, so letting the real "Pate" (an incompetent five year novice who gives up items of extreme importance to an incredibly shady stranger for a whore) in on this conspiracy would be ginormously preposterous, so we can assume they know that "Pate" is not Pate.

So what did Jaqen tell them to let him in the club? We can't know, but I have a hard time imagining they let him in lightly. He must have done, shown, or said something that convinced them unequivocally of his trustworthiness or at least of his usefulness. It's certainly possible he has tricked them, I just find it unlikely, given the circumstances. Marwyn seems to be a powerful man, for starters.

As far as Alleras, we know that in general the sand snakes were looking for vengeance against the IT and the Lannisters. Doran seeks vengeance through Dany, and now Alleras is in on a pro-Dany conspiracy? Seems pretty clear that she has a pro-Dany agenda as well. It's possible she has an ulterior motive, but I can't think of what it could be in this scenario. Again we have the issue of deceiving Marwyn. Like everything else, it's possible but it seems unlikely.

[65536ob]

i don't think jaqen is trying to assasinate anyone at the moment, i think the faceless men have agents all over the world since it would be easier to have them assasinate people than to send someone from bravos to kill them, so jaqen has no target he's just infiltrating

[brinson2000]

Ok somehow we got off target here. It is known..the group the boy Pate was a part of is definitely pro-dragon, which is who JH is cronies with now. I believe his intentions however, have nothing to do with their motives or beliefs. JH chose Pate because he knew that he worked under the only Archmaester whos key was even obtainable (all other Archmaesters kept their master key on their person according to Pate's POV and this was the only one that was hidden away). At this point all we can know is JH's whole purpose in Oldtown has something to do with obtaining the key to the Citadel.

Now with that said. Why did he want the key? What is he after?

Come on if we can take time to come up with a whole pro/anti dragon discussion about the 4 characters in Oldtown that JH is with we have to be able to come up with some good theories for why he needs the key to the Citadel. Right?

And based on the facts about Dark Magic (which the FM use), and that it is the most powerful form of magic, is there anyone who thinks they have an ability to see the future and that is how JH has gotten to his current situation. He knows his path/journey already and is living out his purpose??

[WiDMNDBAMMD]

Jaqen in the black cells on purpose? Not so sure. If so then his destination is the wall, because that's where he's being taken. In a cage that he cannot escape from on his own. He sees Arya for what she is a girl, which means she is not going to the wall with them. Arya saves Jaqen. Jaqen joins the force at Harrenhall, he sticks around because he owes the debt to Arya. Jaqen pays his debt, Arya sees his power to change his face says she wants to learn how to do it. He goes off because he has "promises that he has to keep."

He was headed to the wall, which if he was in a black cell on purpose was where he intended to go.

The next place he shows up however is Old Town which is West and South of Harrenhall. The Wall is far to the North of Harrenhall.

He shows up in Old Town with the same face that he had when he left Arya, which means that he has not had a mission that required him to "die" again(also so that careful readers can identify him as the FM). Takes the key to unlock any door from the thief, then takes Pate's identity to boot.

Pate was a good mark since he wasn't good at anything and couldn't forge any links in his chain. Thus Jaqen doesn't have to worry about looking stupid all of a sudden in the citadel.

Clearly some missions for FM are more complicated than "kill this guy or kill that guy"

[FittleLinger]

snip

I catch your points and they do have some merit, but why would it be so hard to believe that Marwyn can be fooled by an FM disguise and how is it more likely that he knows? I really don't see that.

Also, if Jaqen's point was just to "join the conspiracy" why would he have to kill Pate and take his identity? Sarella and especially Marwyn would have the same or larger access than Pate and could just conspire with Jaqen and give him whatever he needs without all the trouble of killing and infiltrating. And I don't see any indication that Jaqen would be pro-Dany, except if you assume that "conspiracy" and assume that aforementioned guys know who Jaqen is, to which we don't really have indications.

[brinson2000]

Jaqen in the black cells on purpose? Not so sure. If so then his destination is the wall, because that's where he's being taken. In a cage that he cannot escape from on his own. He sees Arya for what she is a girl, which means she is not going to the wall with them. Arya saves Jaqen. Jaqen joins the force at Harrenhall, he sticks around because he owes the debt to Arya. Jaqen pays his debt, Arya sees his power to change his face says she wants to learn how to do it. He goes off because he has "promises that he has to keep."

He was headed to the wall, which if he was in a black cell on purpose was where he intended to go.

The next place he shows up however is Old Town which is West and South of Harrenhall. The Wall is far to the North of Harrenhall.

He shows up in Old Town with the same face that he had when he left Arya, which means that he has not had a mission that required him to "die" again(also so that careful readers can identify him as the FM). Takes the key to unlock any door from the thief, then takes Pate's identity to boot.

Pate was a good mark since he wasn't good at anything and couldn't forge any links in his chain. Thus Jaqen doesn't have to worry about looking stupid all of a sudden in the citadel.

Clearly some missions for FM are more complicated than "kill this guy or kill that guy"

I think you missed my point here. My idea was he knows his purpose by seeing the future through Dark Magic somehow used by the FM. All this is also assuming JH went through all the same training Arya has in Braavos which would be where he originally came from. But if he could see the future and he knows his path then he would have known the black cells were just a stepping stone to get to his final destination/purpose which is the whole point of this thread and what I am trying to talk about.

Also where did this whole JH being pro/anti dragons come into play? That may have no bearing at all for why he is in Oldtown. My reasoning for his present company I believe is valid. He needed a key to open all doors to the Citadel and Pate was the quickest way of getting one. In order to be Pate and use the key he would need to take on Pate's identity and therefore befriend all Pates friends to keep the disguise up. NO I do not think anyone knows that he is not Pate and am wondering where this idea even came from.

Is no one really on board with my dragonglass candle theory?

[SerStinger]

Let me go on a limb here and suggest he wants to kill someone.

[Lord Damian]

Does anyone else think that it was Jagen that killed Balon Greyjoy? Jagen is the FM James Bond in Westeros. He will do what is possible to obtain the books in the Citidel because of two things, Victarion paid with a dragon egg for Balon's death and there are already dragons that are an ancient enemy of the facesss god.

[FittleLinger]

I think you missed my point here. My idea was he knows his purpose by seeing the future through Dark Magic somehow used by the FM. All this is also assuming JH went through all the same training Arya has in Braavos which would be where he originally came from. But if he could see the future and he knows his path then he would have known the black cells were just a stepping stone to get to his final destination/purpose which is the whole point of this thread and what I am trying to talk about.

Also where did this whole JH being pro/anti dragons come into play? That may have no bearing at all for why he is in Oldtown. My reasoning for his present company I believe is valid. He needed a key to open all doors to the Citadel and Pate was the quickest way of getting one. In order to be Pate and use the key he would need to take on Pate's identity and therefore befriend all Pates friends to keep the disguise up. NO I do not think anyone knows that he is not Pate and am wondering where this idea even came from.

Is no one really on board with my dragonglass candle theory?

I will share opinions on your points in order.

First, I don't think there are any indications FM and/or Jaqen have such powers. Also, on a meta level, it would be too much - changing faces, master mummers, seeing future? I don't think that's Martin. And in-story, I don't think it makes much sense for people who can see the future to become an assassin guild. This said, I don't think he was in the cells on purpose. It just doesn't make any sense as a step towards whatever his goal is, whether that's the Wall, the Citadel, meeting Arya or even killing Ned (as has been theorized) - all of those things can be done (much easier and safer) without going to the black cells.

There are basically two "schools" of Jaqen-dragonizm. One says that he is anti, because of the essentials and origins of the FM and their history with dragonlords, and I support this one. The opposing force state that he should be pro-Dany and dragons, because she is now playing an abolitionist game and frees slaves. I don't think that holds too much water - a random Braavosi was so offended and felt like "stung" by a random joke the LC of the NW made, now compare this to an actual FM, who were basically found because of the very anti dragonlord idea.

Oh, and the Jaqen-dragons connection is made because of three things - the history of the FM as mentioned above, the mentioning of the book "The Death of the Dragons", whose only copy is said to be in the Citadel vaults, and the very plausible theory that Euron gave his dragon egg as payment to the FM and did not actually throw it in the water.

Oh, and yeah, I agree about the last one - I also don't think anyone knows Pate is not actually Pate, has little to no reason to suspect it, and I was also very surprised it was suggested as "likely".

Does anyone else think that it was Jagen that killed Balon Greyjoy? Jagen is the FM James Bond in Westeros. He will do what is possible to obtain the books in the Citidel because of two things, Victarion paid with a dragon egg for Balon's death and there are already dragons that are an ancient enemy of the facesss god.

I am absolutely positive it was a Faceless Man because of the Ghost of High Heart's vision. Now, whether it was Jaqen... At first I thought it is improbable that every FM in Westeros is Jaqen, but when I think about it more - I don't think the FM are actually all that many, I think they are maybe a dozen to twenty people (fully-operating assassins I mean), and if you think about it, a Riverlands - Iron Islands - Oldtown trip makes some sense logistically. So I don't know, might be him.

[Ser Creighton]

He is the right hand of Varys, he now has access to the Ravens and candles. He is not the Alchemist, although he may have killed him, he wore his face, he will not wear that face again, that face is from a dead man, like all his faces. This explained during Arya's training.

The candles are about to show the Others coming, he is going to make sure nobody finds out. All men must die. Or he does not want anyone to Know about Aegon.