Was Tywin Lannister even a good commander?

[TwiceBorn]

I admire Tywin as a statesman and hate him as a person. I am not sure about his command skills and experience (check out my thread http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/98398-the-many-battles-of-tywin-lannister-and-jamie/ ). However you must consider this: for a good general victory is not enough, it is how you use it.

Tywin made great use both of his victories and defeats.

It doesn't matter how big the Rayne Reb was, what matters is that it established Tywins position and fed his propaganda.

It doesn't matter Tywin lost his fleet at Lannisport, because this (most likely) spared him futher participation in war with the Iron Islands.

It doesn't matter Tywin did not finish Bolton off at the Green Fork, even better, because he made an ally of him later on.

It doesn't matter Tywin got beaten at the Fords, because he avoided deadly trap by Robb.

In the end Tywin entered King's Landing as a Blackwater Victor and a heroic savior (not a traitor and murderous thug who sacked the town years ago).

Compare famous ancient generals like Hannibal or Pyrrhus to this guy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brasidas

One of the best in my opinion.

[Lord of Dragonstone07]

I am pretty sure that Tywin's reputation doesn't just come from the fact that he is an excellent Battle Commander. It's his political plays and twists that truly make him powerful. He won the war, throught he Red Wedding, and he can't take credit for the Battle of Blackwater, as he would never have gone thier in the first place if not for the Edmure's fault, and would have to mount a seige himself, if not for Tyrions plans and wildfire.

But that is not the reason people are scared of going to war with him. He did not gain his reputation just by being effective on the battlefield, it was by being completely ruthless to those who did not submit. He pulled down Tarbeck Hall, and destroyed Castamere, and ruined both thier families. He destroyed the remnants of House Targaryen, and would have done the same to House Stark, but a combination of factors going on. People are more worried about what he will do after the war, rather than what he will do during war.

[Lord of Dragonstone07]

I admire Tywin as a statesman and hate him as a person. I am not sure about his command skills and experience (check out my thread http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/98398-the-many-battles-of-tywin-lannister-and-jamie/ ). However you must consider this: for a good general victory is not enough, it is how you use it.

Tywin made great use both of his victories and defeats.

It doesn't matter how big the Rayne Reb was, what matters is that it established Tywins position and fed his propaganda.

It doesn't matter Tywin lost his fleet at Lannisport, because this (most likely) spared him futher participation in war with the Iron Islands.

It doesn't matter Tywin did not finish Bolton off at the Green Fork, even better, because he made an ally of him later on.

It doesn't matter Tywin got beaten at the Fords, because he avoided deadly trap by Robb.

In the end Tywin entered King's Landing as a Blackwater Victor and a heroic savior (not a traitor and murderous thug who sacked the town years ago).

Compare famous ancient generals like Hannibal or Pyrrhus to this guy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brasidas

One of the best in my opinion.

WELL SAID! AND THAT IS REALLY WHAT MAKES TYWIN LANNISTER.

[Lord of Dragonstone07]

Could the Starks destroy the Manderlys and Boltons root and stem? The Boltons have defied them and continue to exist

Could the Martells destroy the Yronwoods and Fowlers? The Yronwoods have rebel and continue to exist

The Reynes and Tarbecks were the most powerful bannermen of the Lannisters and Tywin ended them pretty quickly, once and for all. That does not happen if you are not at least good.

Seeing as you have included the Manderlys in the Disloyalty list, i take it you have not finished ADWD.

But rest is agreed, as Boltons continued to exist and rebel, which would never have happened if there ever was a Tywin Stark, but even that is attributed to Tywin's ruthlessness, not his battle command. The Starks too defeated the Boltons several times.

[hodorisfaclessman]

Hes an excellent commander and makes the best out of a seemingly awful situation for his house

tyrions abduction seemingly has him facing the vale, the north and riverlands all at once (hes no way of knowing LF will stop lysa helping her family) ...........an overwhelming force.

His opening move shows the true test of any commander 'know your enemy' , he knows ned will put himself in danger so has the mountain reave assuming ned will lead the hunt for him and be ambushed, its a smart opening move showing insinght into his foe and has a second advantage in that it tempts edmure into spiltting the riverlands massed defenses.

Edmure like a dolt takes the bait and thins the riverlands defenses

Tywin then has jamie take around half his forces (prob the more mobile half) and attacks the now thinned out defensive force smashing it ....jamie keeps pressure on and smashes the attempt to reform outside riverrun and begins his siege

Tywin meanwhile takes a few keeps and places his force(prob the slower potion of the westerlands forces) at a postion that can block the morth and moved to intercept vale forces too.

All in all he has shown good strategic thinking in acting quickly to prevent a seemingly larger enemy linking up with blitzkrieg tactics

even when jamie fucks this all up he manages to ensure he retreats in good order to a strategic point and sends orders to build a new force as well

[Lion of the West]

Hes an excellent commander and makes the best out of a seemingly awful situation for his house

tyrions abduction seemingly has him facing the vale, the north and riverlands all at once (hes no way of knowing LF will stop lysa helping her family) ...........an overwhelming force.

His opening move shows the true test of any commander 'know your enemy' , he knows ned will put himself in danger so has the mountain reave assuming ned will lead the hunt for him and be ambushed, its a smart opening move showing insinght into his foe and has a second advantage in that it tempts edmure into spiltting the riverlands massed defenses.

Edmure like a dolt takes the bait and thins the riverlands defenses

Tywin then has jamie take around half his forces (prob the more mobile half) and attacks the now thinned out defensive force smashing it ....jamie keeps pressure on and smashes the attempt to reform outside riverrun and begins his siege

Tywin meanwhile takes a few keeps and places his force(prob the slower potion of the westerlands forces) at a postion that can block the morth and moved to intercept vale forces too.

All in all he has shown good strategic thinking in acting quickly to prevent a seemingly larger enemy linking up with blitzkrieg tactics

even when jamie fucks this all up he manages to ensure he retreats in good order to a strategic point and sends orders to build a new force as well

I agree 100%.

[Batman]

Seeing as you have included the Manderlys in the Disloyalty list, i take it you have not finished ADWD.

But rest is agreed, as Boltons continued to exist and rebel, which would never have happened if there ever was a Tywin Stark, but even that is attributed to Tywin's ruthlessness, not his battle command. The Starks too defeated the Boltons several times.

It was theoretical, not literal. The Manderly's seem to be the most powerful house sworn to the Stark's, so they were the example comparable to the Reyne's and Tarbeck's, along with the Bolton's.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

He was an adequate commander, the only battles he won were; A battle against the Reynes and Tarbecks (mentioned in the WoIaF excerpt) where he outnumbered them two to one, the battle of the green fork, which Bolton esentially lost on purpose (not everyone agrees with this, but I think Roose was essentially trying to undermine the Starks from the beginning), and the battle of the Blackwater, where he outnumbered Stannis 4-1, and most of the work was done by the vanguard.

Based on that I'd say there is no evidence for him being some brilliant tactician, though he was very good at winning battles with "quills and ravens".

As for wiping out the Reynes, I would say that was more an emotional than political decision, as it directly contradicts the advice he gives Joffrey regarding enemies kneeling to you.

[Lion of the West]

He was an adequate commander, the only battles he won were; A battle against the Reynes and Tarbecks (mentioned in the WoIaF excerpt) where he outnumbered them two to one, the battle of the green fork, which Bolton esentially lost on purpose (not everyone agrees with this, but I think Roose was essentially trying to undermine the Starks from the beginning), and the battle of the Blackwater, where he outnumbered Stannis 4-1, and most of the work was done by the vanguard.

Based on that I'd say there is no evidence for him being some brilliant tactician, though he was very good at winning battles with "quills and ravens".

As for wiping out the Reynes, I would say that was more an emotional than political decision, as it directly contradicts the advice he gives Joffrey regarding enemies kneeling to you.

Contrary to popular belief war is about more than the battles. Its also about logistics, manovering etc. Lots of stuff that are not as flashy as glorious battle but equally important, and in most cases decides how the battles will go.

1. He defeated Tarbecks and Reynes so easily thanks to his superior strategic planning. Great general.

2. Roose Bolton didn't lose on purpose so there's a clear victory for Tywin. Roose essentially tried the same suprise-tactics that Robb used later on but against a foe like Tywin instead of one like Stafford, and you can see the difference in the battle.

3. Blackwater was one of the most decisive battles that knocked Stannis pretty much out of the war for a significent ammount of time, perhaps permanently and reduced his power to a score of exiled swords. Time will show if Stannis will ever come back. And Stannis is a formidable opponent as far as I can see, no Stafford there for the Lannisters and Tyrells to face.

4. Being a tactician and being a commander are very different things. The tactician looks at the small picture while the commander must deal with the large picture and the small picture at the same time.

5. Wiping out the Reynes and Tarbecks makes complete sense to me. The difference is that the Reynes and Tarbecks were the leaders of the problems for House Lannister and thus they were the ones who were mostly punished. Also note that the Tarbecks and Reynes were given opertunities to surrender but decided to fight instead. They brought their own doom on themselves.