Was Tywin Lannister even a good commander?

[Frey Pie]

Nothing.

But I was saying the plan made sense ~ was not stupid. Tywin thought pleading before Robert for Tyrion would hurt his standing/prestige.

Not really Tywin- Here Bob, let my son go or else. King-Ok, sorry about that. Ned-Ya sorry (goes all red). Tywin rides back out, stops, leaves his horse poo on the carpet, and returns home to his mound of gold

[David Selig]

Nothing.

But I was saying the plan made sense ~ was not stupid. Tywin thought pleading before Robert for Tyrion would hurt his standing/prestige.

Kidnapping Ned and making Robert and the North really mad would've hurt Tywin a lot more. Robert may have been willing to allow a lot of things go since he owed Tywin money and was married to Cercei, but no way he'd have let his Hand be kidnapped while on official royal business without punishing the one who did it.

[Chaircat Meow]

Kidnapping Ned and making Robert and the North really mad would've hurt Tywin a lot more. Robert may have been willing to allow a lot of things go since he owed Tywin money and was married to Cercei, but no way he'd have let his Hand be kidnapped while on official royal business without punishing the one who did it.

On balance I think not. Robert wasn't in a pickle with Tywin because of the money really; Tywin was the only lord apart from Ned who could give him all his banners in the event of a Targ attempt at a restoration. Something Robert is very worried about. Tbh I think Ned would have been humiliated, some scapegoats, like Gregor (who Tywin would say was responsible) would be given the chop, Tyrion would be exchanged, and there it would end. It's not like Robert cared when Ned was attacked in the street and nearly killed.

[LucionLannister]

` Was Tywin good. Yes. I'm just not blown away by all his achievements.

- Defeating two of your bannermen is not such a great accomplishment to me. Name me one Lord Paramount who couldn't do the same?

- Sacking King's Landing was also not a great achievement. Especially, considering how he managed to get in. But I guess some people consider lying to a former friend who is desperate in order to get in to the city and sack it "genius".

- The Lannisters (Baratheons?) won the war because of great political moves, I won't deny it. That Tyrion really is a master politician.

- The Battle of the Green Fork was a diversion by the north in order for Robb to sneak up on the other Lannister host and it worked because it completely fooled Tywin.

Nothing else really stands out. Well, there is the Red Wedding, but even Tywin won't publicly take credit for that.

Edited to add.

I don't want to minimize Tywin as if he was a two-bit lord. He was a great lord from a great house and kept or elevated the house's standing. He had to attack the Reynes and Tarbecks for their disrespectful behavior. But I do think that his reputation was enhanced because he was from one the top two or three houses in Westeros, he's super-rich and had good p.r. (see The Rains of Castamere).

I think it depends on your bannerman. I mean, the Reynes were the Lannister's most powerful bannerman, so they probably would have put up a good fight with the Tarbecks.

And I think bannerman who are in charge of large cities and gold mines could put up good fights. I think the Hightowers of Oldtown could do a pretty strong rebellion against Highgarden and the Manderlys of White Harbor could probably put a good fight against the Starks. They both control large portions of the North and the Reach.

The fact the Tywin took on two of his father's most powerful bannerman when he was only 20 makes this impressive.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Kidnapping Ned and making Robert and the North really mad would've hurt Tywin a lot more. Robert may have been willing to allow a lot of things go since he owed Tywin money and was married to Cercei, but no way he'd have let his Hand be kidnapped while on official royal business without punishing the one who did it.

It's too late to play nice. Catelyn Stark has kidnapped his son - making the North "mad" isn't something I would worry about at that point either - it's clear that they are already operating against him.

[Chaircat Meow]

most of the scenario u depict seems true enough but when is comes to whatever task tywin held in that formation of battle you utterly misrepesent intentionally the facts.......the rearguard action was led by rolland that led to stannis fleeing as he was near blackwater bay where the ships entangled and formed an likely bridge closer to where the remainder of the stannis fleet was landing its troops in the quay near blackwater rush when the stannis land troops met up with the landed naval troops and were overwhelming the second sortie led by swann,moore and tyrion that's when there was a suddden appearence of foes in stannis flanks turning the rearguard of that battle the forces closer to the quay.....note tywin held the right the likes of josmyn pickledon,ser philip foote thick in the westermen order of battle in the right made name for themselves pickledon killing two knights, wounding two more and capturing a third night while ser philip foote fought a single combat and slayed a lord caron

the truth of the matter is that stannis got lucky as he was the only one left with sizable fleet anchored present near the quay where his naval and troops landed with neither tyrells or lannisters having any ships present to prevent his escape to jion the sallador fleet

I think the 'left' that was being referred to was actually under the command of Mace Tyrell. Tywin would have hit Stannis' van, on the north side of the river. Garlan was near the city but on the south side of the river.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Not really Tywin- Here Bob, let my son go or else. King-Ok, sorry about that. Ned-Ya sorry (goes all red). Tywin rides back out, stops, leaves his horse poo on the carpet, and returns home to his mound of gold

This ignores important context:

-Robert was someone who always wanted to take the easy out. Facilitating the trade would be the easy way out in this case.

-Robert owed Casterly Rock a shit ton of gold, and was surrounded by Lannisters in KL.

-The Starks started it by nabbing Tyrion (at least as far as anyone knows)

[noSer]

It's a stretch to draw any generalized conclusions from the limited exchanges between Tywin and Robb but it's safe to say that either Tywin took Robb to lightly or that Robb exceeded expectations. I lean towards the latter but one can certainly lose a battle and still win the war. If anything Tywin showed a healthy amount of respect for Robb's abilities by resorting to treachery rather than face him again in battle.

[ed Lannister]

I think the 'left' that was being referred to was actually under the command of Mace Tyrell. Tywin would have hit Stannis' van, on the north side of the river. Garlan was near the city but on the south side of the river.

i think i'll have to do a re-read of the battle chapters to try and figure out where exactly the charaters would have positioned themselves....but a detailed thread would be nice and come in handy to shade more light on this ........capturing different POV and interpretations.

[Nyrhex]

most of the scenario u depict seems true enough but when is comes to whatever task tywin held in that formation of battle you utterly misrepesent intentionally the facts.......

What? How can you claim it's intentionl? It's been a few years since ACOK, nor recalling every detail properly is legit, I don't see any reason to claim that I am intentionally misreprisenting the facts... :dunno:

the rearguard action was led by rolland that led to stannis fleeing as he was near blackwater bay where the ships entangled and formed an likely bridge closer to where the remainder of the stannis fleet was landing its troops in the quay near blackwater rush when the stannis land troops met up with the landed naval troops and were overwhelming the second sortie led by swann,moore and tyrion that's when there was a suddden appearence of foes in stannis flanks turning the rearguard of that battle the forces closer to the quay.....note tywin held the right the likes of josmyn pickledon,ser philip foote thick in the westermen order of battle in the right made name for themselves pickledon killing two knights, wounding two more and capturing a third night while ser philip foote fought a single combat and slayed a lord caron

Peckeldon and Foote are both Westermen, but there were Westermen in KL as well. I don't recall them being mentioned in Tywin's host at any point in time. Even if they were part of the army, that still means nothing, as the Van took most of the horse. After Stannis takes 4/5 of Renly's horse, it's only natural for Tywin to place some of his cavalry at the Van under Garlan. Tywin is still the one in command of the right, which would put him opposite of Stannis's rear.

the truth of the matter is that stannis got lucky as he was the only one left with sizable fleet anchored present near the quay where his naval and troops landed with neither tyrells or lannisters having any ships present to prevent his escape to jion the sallador fleet

Lucky in what way? That Redwyne still thought his son was held captive in KL and so didn't move his fleet? That the fleet in reserve Stannis places outside of the Blackwater rush was actually usefull? That the pesron he put in charge of his rearguard, a bastard though he had an army of lords and lordlings to choose from, actually proved to be a good choice? Now who is intentionally misreprisenting the facts?

Tywin was supposed to prevent Stannis from escaping precisely because they (Tyrells/Lannisters) had no ships, and so had to bank on speed and surprise to get Stannis before he could get to his fleet. Tyrion destroying most of the fleet was completly unnecessary for Tyrion's objective. It proved to be far more helpful though then Tywin was at the battle.

Please don't try and turn this thread into a Stannis bash. We are talking about Tywin here, not Westerosi commandes in general. There are enough threads for that.

I think i got mixed up and thought you were talking of Tywin marching from HH when Robb had won Oxcross already. Apologies. However, if you think Tywin can storm the Twins with an 800 strong garrison, beat Edmure and Robb who combined would pretty much have even numbers, or as likely, would order Roose to rejoin him and so give him greater numbers the Tywin, and time to set up a defensive position, and even with Stafford be in condition to turn around and beat the Baratheons i have to say your mistaken. Tywins a good general but hes not Alexander or Hannibal

First of all, I think that yes, Tywin could have taken the Twins with thier 800 men. No reason why he couldn't. Second of all, in this scenario Roose's force in annihalated, so Robb cannot link up with him. This puts Tywin in a position to attack Robb from the north, or to invest Robb long enough in the Riverlands untill Stafford could get his force close enough to attack Robb with greater numbers (Tywin's 20k+Stafford's 10k > Robb and Edmure's ~20k) if he fears he can't handle it by himself. I'm not saying that he wins by default, my point was that after the Green Fork it was a better option then sitting on his hand for 6 months in HH while Robb ravaged the Westerlands and Roose's army was still a threat to KL if he leaves.

Who cares? Hes more suitable. Kevans an impossibility because of the geography. Perhaps Forley deseves the promotion, being the only commander to not messs up at the camps?

Kevan is a possibility, as I meant that Tywin charges him in the first place with the second army or with building the third. Jaime should have been given command of a smaller unit, not an army. Stafford should have stayed home. Forley proved he wasn't incompetent as Stafford, but all he did was basically retreating. Not exactly something to promote over (I know, it's a bitch when you get overlooked for not fucking up, but that's how it works).

[The Fallen]

I think it depends on your bannerman. I mean, the Reynes were the Lannister's most powerful bannerman, so they probably would have put up a good fight with the Tarbecks.

And I think bannerman who are in charge of large cities and gold mines could put up good fights. I think the Hightowers of Oldtown could do a pretty strong rebellion against Highgarden and the Manderlys of White Harbor could probably put a good fight against the Starks. They both control large portions of the North and the Reach.

The fact the Tywin took on two of his father's most powerful bannerman when he was only 20 makes this impressive.

The only way any of those bannermen can pose a serious threat to a Lord Paramount would be if they were able to sway other houses (not just one, but several) to join them in rebelling against the Lord Paramount.

Had I been in Tywin's shoes, I would have attacked those houses also. I don't believe in being confrontational all the time, but that kind of insolence cannot go unpunished.

[Lion of Judah]

He has his strengths no doubt, but he is not a notable commander by any means. His solution to a mosquito in the room would be to use a canon ball, yes you would get the mosquito but you also destroy the room.

[Frey Pie]

This ignores important context:

-Robert was someone who always wanted to take the easy out. Facilitating the trade would be the easy way out in this case.

-Robert owed Casterly Rock a shit ton of gold, and was surrounded by Lannisters in KL.

-The Starks started it by nabbing Tyrion (at least as far as anyone knows)

Easy way out? Like the way he begged forgiveness and mercy from Aerys? Like the way he just sat back on the throne and let Balon rule the Iron Isles? Sure he orders Ned to kill the wolf, and tries to organise peace between Ned and Cersei. But theres a small bit of a difference between this and Ned sending out 200 or so men and them being decimated by an angry Tywin. Especially when they are there by royal decree and under a Royal banner. This would call for a tougher route and Robert wouldnt take the easy way out here. At the least Lannister hold on the Throne would be lessened

As for Tyrion. Taken, accused, given trial, found innocent, turns up safe. Huge difference to the death of hundreds of men, many of them noble born. If Robert was still alive Tywin would be happy to have his son back and the Kings intent to pay him his money, aswel as Neds apology. Tywins reaction was as over the top as you get

[LordBloodraven]

On balance I think not. Robert wasn't in a pickle with Tywin because of the money really; Tywin was the only lord apart from Ned who could give him all his banners in the event of a Targ attempt at a restoration. Something Robert is very worried about. Tbh I think Ned would have been humiliated, some scapegoats, like Gregor (who Tywin would say was responsible) would be given the chop, Tyrion would be exchanged, and there it would end. It's not like Robert cared when Ned was attacked in the street and nearly killed.

Actually the two regions that were likely to ally with the Targs in case of an invasion were the Reach and Dorne. All the rest of Westeros would have been on Robert's side and I don't think that he would cool down when his Hand and best mate were humiliated by Tywin Lannister. Jaime Lannister killing his men and fleeing is one thing, attacking the Hand and then trying to negociate is another.

[Chaircat Meow]

Actually the two regions that were likely to ally with the Targs in case of an invasion were the Reach and Dorne. All the rest of Westeros would have been on Robert's side and I don't think that he would cool down when his Hand and best mate were humiliated by Tywin Lannister. Jaime Lannister killing his men and fleeing is one thing, attacking the Hand and then trying to negociate is another.

Yea, so only the most powerful and populous region then.

There were still Targ loyalists in the riverlands, vale and stormlands as not all of those regions followed their lords paramount during the war. Hoster being ill and Jon dead also could be seen as weakening Robert's grip on those regions in the event of a Targ invasion/revolt.

Tywin would be aware Robert would have to save face and so Gregor would probably be blamed.

I do find it cute people think Robert would be so much more upset with Ned being seized on royal business as opposed to being nearly killed by lannisters in the capital.

[LordBloodraven]

It's too late to play nice. Catelyn Stark has kidnapped his son - making the North "mad" isn't something I would worry about at that point either - it's clear that they are already operating against him.

It's not about playing nice but about being reasonable. Tyrion was abducted but can be sent back. Attacking the Riverlands is not a way to unentangle this mess. Catelyn abducting Tyrion with sworn sword's help is no proof that Ned Stark or Hoster Tully agree with it. Tywin is too snobbish to be reasonable

[LordBloodraven]

Yea, so only the most powerful and populous region then.

There were still Targ loyalists in the riverlands, vale and stormlands as not all of those regions followed their lords paramount during the war. Hoster being ill and Jon dead also could be seen as weakening Robert's grip on those regions in the event of a Targ invasion/revolt.

Tywin would be aware Robert would have to save face and so Gregor would probably be blamed.

I do find it cute people think Robert would be so much more upset with Ned being seized on royal business as opposed to being nearly killed by lannisters in the capital.

Yea, so only the most powerful and populous region then.

There were still Targ loyalists in the riverlands, vale and stormlands as not all of those regions followed their lords paramount during the war. Hoster being ill and Jon dead also could be seen as weakening Robert's grip on those regions in the event of a Targ invasion/revolt.

Tywin would be aware Robert would have to save face and so Gregor would probably be blamed.

I do find it cute people think Robert would be so much more upset with Ned being seized on royal business as opposed to being nearly killed by lannisters in the capital.

Apart from the Darrys and the Martells, I'm not even sure that these "loyalists" were ready to act proactively in favour of the Targs. We see how the stormlords that opposed Robert like the Fells, Cafferens and Grandisons came to embrace Robert's rule. These men even in the Vale and Riverlands would follow Hoster and Jon Arryn's heir until such time as a Targaryen has the advantage on Robert Baratheon, something which was far from happening. Time would heal all those divisions though as we see with Harwood Fell.

I think too that Gregor would be thrown under the bus by Tywin. He'll lose face even if people don't see it that way. And Gregor is one of Tywin's main tools.

[Chaircat Meow]

Apart from the Darrys and the Martells, I'm not even sure that these "loyalists" were ready to act proactively in favour of the Targs. We see how the stormlords that opposed Robert like the Fells, Cafferens and Grandisons came to embrace Robert's rule. These men even in the Vale and Riverlands would follow Hoster and Jon Arryn's heir until such time as a Targaryen has the advantage on Robert Baratheon, something which was far from happening. Time would heal all those divisions though as we see with Harwood Fell.

I think too that Gregor would be thrown under the bus by Tywin. He'll lose face even if people don't see it that way. And Gregor is one of Tywin's main tools.

In GoT the distinct impression I got was that loyalties were uncertain, esp in the riverlands (but presumably elsewhere as well) if push came to shove. Everything would be uncertain until the revolt/rising/invasion actually came about. If Robert wanted a region to unanimously support him, no questions asked, he was looking at Tywin and Ned.

Edit: maybe I shouldn't have said 'loyalists': I meant houses that could easily jump either way and couldn't be depended on.

[LordBloodraven]

In GoT the distinct impression I got was that loyalties were uncertain, esp in the riverlands (but presumably elsewhere as well) if push came to shove. Everything would be uncertain until the revolt/rising/invasion actually came about. If Robert wanted a region to unanimously support him, no questions asked, he was looking at Tywin and Ned.

Edit: maybe I shouldn't have said 'loyalists': I meant houses that could easily jump either way and couldn't be depended on.

Yep, but those Houses weren't that powerful. Plus, Mace Tyrell was trying to be on Robert's good graces...

[Chaircat Meow]

Yep, but those Houses weren't that powerful. Plus, Mace Tyrell was trying to be on Robert's good graces...

It's pretty clear in GoT Robert is worried about a Targ fifth column.

And half (or thereabouts) of the riverlands and houses in the vale/stormlands had not fought for him, or fought on the other side. I don't think GrrM necessarily mentioned all of them by name. And ... as I said, the two strongmen are both gone too, leaving insane Lysa and weak Edmure.

Mace was making overtures sure, but unless Robert dumped Cersei he hadn't really secured Tyrell support and Renly doesn't seem to have broached him about Marge (after Ned was fazed).