Why do so many ASOIAF fans think Sansa will outwit Lord Baelish?

[WardenOfTheNorth]

I don't get it. The guy has shown that he is a master manipulator. Sansa has not shown exceptional intelligence, and she does not have experience playing the Game like he does.

What have we seen from Sansa to ever suggest she could outwit him? Before I finished AFFC and ADWD, I saw a ton of threads discussing that possibility.

I expected to see a lot of examples of the so called student learning from the teacher. And what did I see? Sansa correctly guessing that Peter had Corbray on his payroll. So that's it?

That means she will outwit him? I think that's just wishful thinking. A lot of ASOIAF fans hate Peter for what he did to Ned, and most fans love the Starks...so they're hoping/thinking that Sansa will have him killed. I just don't see it.

[E-Ro]

It seems obvious to me that Sansa is really smart, anyway some San sans are coming that will explain it way better then I can.

[rystine]

When people say that they think that Sansa is going to outwit Petyr I don't think they are meaning that they think she is going to make some big political move that will put him in a bind. I think it's more that sooner or later Sansa is going to figure out that Baelish has a weak spot for her and she'll use that to her advantage.

She knows his most dangerous secrets: that he orchestrated Jon Arryn's murder, killed Lysa, and was behind the plot to kill Joffrey. And he does get a little sloppy around her, in her final chapter in AFFC he was somewhat drunk around her, which I think is the first time we see him that way. I kind of think that he may believe he has the same level of total control over Sansa that he did over Lysa.

All it takes is the right word to the right person (Bronze Yohn maybe?), and Littlefinger could find himself in a very precarious position.

[The Meeraculous Third Reed]

A lot of it is wishful thinking and dislike for The Great One. The rest is based I assume on the Ghost of High Heart and Sansa's growing intelligence.

I don't think it will happen.

[IceGal]

1. Sansa is getting shrewder

2. People (including me) really want LF to meet his match

[E-Ro]

A lot of it is wishful thinking and dislike for The Great One. The rest is based I assume on the Ghost of High Heart and Sansa's growing intelligence.

I don't think it will happen.

The great one? You mean pedofinger?

[Winterfellian]

I believe that Sansa will be LF's downfall. The ironic thing is that it won't necessarily be because she out smart him the way the OP is expecting, but because of LF himself. Sansa is prior to some of his darkest deeds and methods and more importantly, LF gets too cocky for his own good around her. He's constantly spilling the beans and the aura of mystery that covered his actions to others is removed where Sansa is concerned. Is like he's soo busy trying to show her just so smart and clever he can be that he puts himself in a position of disadvantage in front of her without seeming to be aware of it.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

I believe that Sansa will be LF's downfall. The ironic thing is that it won't necessarily be because she out smart him the way the OP is expecting, but because of LF himself. Sansa is prior to some of his darkest deeds and methods and more importantly, LF gets too cocky for his own good around her. He's constantly spilling the beans and the aura of mystery that covered his actions to others is removed where Sansa is concerned. Is like he's soo busy trying to show her just so smart and clever he can be that he puts himself in a position of disadvantage in front of her without seeming to be aware of it.

:agree:

He also likes to believe that he's got her under control, but Sansa successfully keeps her feelings and thoughts to herself. Regarding Sansa, Littlefinger seems to forget what he considers the first rule of the game: 'even the humblest pawn may refuse to make the move you designed'.

I think she will be the catalyst for his downfall, but it will primarily be his own fault.

[jons nissa]

When people say that they think that Sansa is going to outwit Petyr I don't think they are meaning that they think she is going to make some big political move that will put him in a bind. I think it's more that sooner or later Sansa is going to figure out that Baelish has a weak spot for her and she'll use that to her advantage.

She knows his most dangerous secrets: that he orchestrated Jon Arryn's murder, killed Lysa, and was behind the plot to kill Joffrey. And he does get a little sloppy around her, in her final chapter in AFFC he was somewhat drunk around her, which I think is the first time we see him that way. I kind of think that he may believe he has the same level of total control over Sansa that he did over Lysa.

this so much. especially the bolded part.

eta:

there is also lots of indication that the next book will have sansa's story change/evolve into something much more than it is now. it's hard to say how sansa will "be" when all is said and done with grrm's saga.

[Maester Domeric]

I believe that Sansa will be LF's downfall. The ironic thing is that it won't necessarily be because she out smart him the way the OP is expecting, but because of LF himself. Sansa is prior to some of his darkest deeds and methods and more importantly, LF gets too cocky for his own good around her. He's constantly spilling the beans and the aura of mystery that covered his actions to others is removed where Sansa is concerned. Is like he's soo busy trying to show her just so smart and clever he can be that he puts himself in a position of disadvantage in front of her without seeming to be aware of it.

but the thing is that Sansa has no reason to kill Littlefinger. I'll have to reread it but she has no inclination that Sansa knows that Baelish betrayed her father and theres no one around to tell her that either. If anything Sansa owes her life to Lord Baelish

The great one? You mean pedofinger?

This isn't meant to devolve into someplace nasty but 2 things:

1) Sansa is a woman flowered not a child, and he only kisses her.

2) I don't see people talking about Drogo as Khal Pedo, almost ever

[E-Ro]

This isn't meant to devolve into someplace nasty but 2 things:

1) Sansa is a woman flowered not a child, and he only kisses her.

2) I don't see people talking about Drogo as Khal Pedo, almost ever

He's sexually attracted to a 15 year old, that makes him a pedophile in my book. As for khal drogo he gets called a pedophile all the time and with good reason because he is one by 21st century western standards.

[Dicer]

I don't get it. The guy has shown that he is a master manipulator. Sansa has not shown exceptional intelligence, and she does not have experience playing the Game like he does.

What have we seen from Sansa to ever suggest she could outwit him? Before I finished AFFC and ADWD, I saw a ton of threads discussing that possibility.

I expected to a lot of examples of the so called student learning from the teacher. And what did I see? Sansa correctly guessing that Peter had Corbray on his payroll. So that's it?

I agree. I still see Sansa as a scared, passive person who does what she's told and still has no agency.

But I also think she will have a role to play in Littlefinger's downfall, because there has to be a point to this character. She needs to do something. All the other Starks are accomplishing things and making something of themselves. Five books in and we don't see anything from Sansa other than learning from LF.

There are still two books to go, so there's a chance that Sansa gradually evolves and starts to come up with some of her own ideas and plans and maybe that's how her arc will end in the final book. With her taking down LF.

[WardenOfTheNorth]

I agree. I still see Sansa as a scared, passive person who does what she's told and still has no agency.

But I also think she will have a role to play in Littlefinger's downfall, because there has to be a point to this character. She needs to do something. All the other Starks are accomplishing things and making something of themselves. Five books in and we don't see anything from Sansa other than learning from LF.

There are still two books to go, so there's a chance that Sansa gradually evolves and starts to come up with some of her own ideas and plans and maybe that's how her arc will end in the final book. With her taking down LF.

What about Rickon Stark? He hasn't done anything either.

[Dicer]

What about Rickon Stark? He hasn't done anything either.

Well we don't know since we have not heard from him...

[Golden&Crimson]

Wishful thinking.

Petyr Baelish is a cunning villain that keeps the innocent maiden (Sansa) prisioner.

And because Real Knights™ is out of business Sansa must find a way to outwit (ah! good luck on that!)) Petyr Baelish, break free, return to Winterfell, and eat all the lemon cakes she can.

The End

[Cas Stark]

I believe that Sansa will be LF's downfall. The ironic thing is that it won't necessarily be because she out smart him the way the OP is expecting, but because of LF himself. Sansa is prior to some of his darkest deeds and methods and more importantly, LF gets too cocky for his own good around her. He's constantly spilling the beans and the aura of mystery that covered his actions to others is removed where Sansa is concerned. Is like he's soo busy trying to show her just so smart and clever he can be that he puts himself in a position of disadvantage in front of her without seeming to be aware of it.

I agree. Sansa's "development" to my way of seeing is often severely overstated. She is still shallow, she is still a "victim" in the sense that she doesn't and hasn't done anything much active to attempt to change her situation, the fact that she is able to grasp LF's schemes that he explains to her in step by step detail is not what I would call strong evidence of her intellectual development.

She will be his downfall because he has forgotten his own rule, that if you know what a man wants, you can manipulate him because you know his weakness. His need to show off for her and give her insight that she would NEVER figure out on her own, no matter how long she sat in the Vale, is how she will destroy him.

[Lummel]

I don't get it. The guy has shown that he is a master manipulator...

well we've all got to hope for something.

However more seriously Lord Baelish has showed himself to be a master manipulator of Lysa Arryn who was head over heels in love with him, he manipulates Sansa - who has few options in life at this time and he manipulates a bard by having him tortured and that's about the limit.

Otherwise in ACOK we see him being petulant and lacking in courtly manners. He has a few people bought in the Vale, but all of those people would be better off if Baelish was dead - in fact all the nobles he has bought have at least one motive to kill him and no motivation to keep him alive. Evidence for Petyr Baelish being a master manipulator really isn't there.

[Maester Domeric]

He's sexually attracted to a 15 year old, that makes him a pedophile in my book. As for khal drogo he gets called a pedophile all the time and with good reason because he is one by 21st century western standards.

I think the actual degree of his infatuation with Sansa is something up for debate. I think your definition of pedophile is fine and good by todays standard where its widely held that your stilla child until you're 18. However by westerosi standards there is nothing pedophilic about his attraction to Sansa because she isn't a child, biologically or culturally. Its fine to not like a character, or even have apprehension about the age gap between him and Sansa but that does not make him a pedophile.

I very rarely see Khal Pedo get called out for it, and even when he does its usually implied that its okay cause Dany wanted it. There is a clear double standard when discussing Drogo and Baelish.

[Gauis Julius Caesar]

He's sexually attracted to a 15 year old, that makes him a pedophile in my book. As for khal drogo he gets called a pedophile all the time and with good reason because he is one by 21st century western standards.

By our standards yes. By westeros standards? Not even close. And you cannot impose modern day standards to a historical situation (historical time period, and even then very loosely. What if in a thousand years no one eats meat anymore and our generations are judged as savages. To those people in the future we're savages but we think we're perfectly normal. Get it?

[E-Ro]

He's sexually attracted to a 15 year old, that makes him a pedophile in my book. As for khal drogo he gets called a pedophile all the time and with good reason because he is one by 21st century western standards.

Just checked Sansa is 13 as of storm, not 15.