Why do so many ASOIAF fans think Sansa will outwit Lord Baelish?

[Sweet-N-SourRobin]

Because if she doesn't, then pretty much every Sansa POV chapter in the entire series has been a complete waste of time.

[Maester Domeric]

Not his downfall, exactly. He's directly responsible for Ned's death. Varys & Cersei had arranged for Ned to go to The Wall, that's what both were expecting. Littlefinger's whispering in Joffery's ear and his owning of Slynt made sure Ned got beheaded so fast no one could do anything to stop it.

this is an aside from the main topic, but where is that stated expressly in the text. I vaguely recall reading this somewhere on the forum but I distinctively recall it being a conjecture. Another reread is inorder soon, but if you could cite textually where Littlefinger either claims responsibility for or is accused of suggesting ned be beheaded in the mean time it would be much appreciated.

[The Lady Raven]

What everyone has failed to mention is that by the end of AFFC we see Sansa befriending some important people in the Vale. It is not a matter of being naturally smart, its a matter of listening quietly pretending nothing is wrong, taking in all the information she can, and wait for the right moment to pounce. If there is one thing Sansa is good at, it is hiding her emotions and views from others. Like many of you said, she now has the upper hand, since Petyr is possesively in love with her and thus betrays himself making her aware of all his twisted (yet BRILLIANT) plans. Lets also not forget Jojen Reed's prophecy that the wolves will return. The only two wolves that havent been doing much are Sansa and Rickon, and the latter will already have a main storyline involving Davos... so this only leaves Sansa. Sorry for the paragraph...

[E-Ro]

But even by modern standards your statement is incorrect. Pedophiles are sexually attracted to pre-pubescent children. The definition is pretty specific in that the object of a pedophile's attraction is pre-puberty, and does not yet have development of sexual characteristics. Sansa doesnt qualify for any of that.

I see a lot of people use the term pedophile as a slander on this forum, but in almost every case that person is ignorant of the actual definition of the term.

Ok by strict definition he is not a pedophile what he has is closest to hebiphilia. Where I live sex with a 13 year old is statutory rape and even though he hasn't raped her yet he forced her to kiss him in a sexual manner and has obviously strong sexual desire for her. That to me is a major problem and he needs help and therapy for it unfortunately westeros does not have that. Like I said we aren't supposed to sympathize with LF it's ok that some people do but that is clearly not the authors intent and he has portrayed lf as a villain who is not to be trusted.

[Cas Stark]

Maybe I blocked it out, because I rebel at the idea that Sansa Stark has gone from pawn to player, but who has she "befriended" in the Vale that is important? She serves wine and cheese and makes polite small talk to some lords, but, I still don't see her acting with any skill or agency or even trying to carve out allies for herself.

[E-Ro]

There's a technical definition and a colloquial definition, just like there are for lots of things. For example you can call someone psychotic without them necessarily suffering from a clinical psychosis. The colloquial definition for a pedophile has for many years (if not longer), referred to older persons being attracted to people under the age of 18.

In any case it's a semantic quibble, when people call a character like LF a pedophile, you know exactly what they mean.

Also this. And I will continue to call him pedofinger. If you prefer allot of people call him the pissant. But personally I really prefer pedofinger when referring to him.

[Nyrhex]

He's not the main reason, her father being hamstring by his honor and unable to do what needed to be done after Robert died is a main reason. Her going to Cersei is a huge reason why her family is dead. The parentage of the Cersei's children is the actual first cause for all this mess, was Petyr Baelish responsible for that?

I was mostly referring to the kiss that Lysa saw.

He is giving her a second chance at life, sure at the moment things are still kind of down for her. But he's trying to install her as the next lady of the vale and eventually helping her get her claim back on the North. Sure his motives are selfish, but the end is the same as far as Sansa is concerned.

He pushed Lysa into killing Jon Arryn, and then to send a letter to Cat that it was Lannisters. He then claims the dagger used to try and kill Bran was Tyrion's. He betrays Ned and makes sure he dies so he could get Cat. Now that Cat is dead, he want's the next best thing -> Sansa.

He is not giving her a second chance of life. He is using her for his own plans, but in a way that he thinks would make her grateful. He tells her that he will help her regain WF, when he is the reason it lies in ashes.

I'm sorry, but how can you not see LF is a villain? The guy has a goatee for crying out loud...

[Mladen]

Maybe I blocked it out, because I rebel at the idea that Sansa Stark has gone from pawn to player, but who has she "befriended" in the Vale that is important? She serves wine and cheese and makes polite small talk to some lords, but, I still don't see her acting with any skill or agency or even trying to carve out allies for herself.

What do you think will happen on a day when she says to them who she is? They`ll turn her down? No, she doesn`t need to procur allies she already has. And Vale lords will do their best to protect her from everyone. Why? Here are some reasons

1. She`s Stark of Winterfell, and Starks and Arryns have been friends for quite some time

2. She is cousin of their liege lord, furthermore it seems that he has become depenent of her

3. Blackfish is her great-uncle, and these are people who utterly respect him, also never forget Ned was raised in Eyrie

4. She is supposingly the only living child of Ned Stark and therefore an heiress of the North

The are tons of reasons why Vale lords would stand for her in the time of need. And never foorget Royce`s words: We remember.

[lady m]

this is an aside from the main topic, but where is that stated expressly in the text. I vaguely recall reading this somewhere on the forum but I distinctively recall it being a conjecture. Another reread is inorder soon, but if you could cite textually where Littlefinger either claims responsibility for or is accused of suggesting ned be beheaded in the mean time it would be much appreciated.

It's not, you have to put it together. The key is Janos Slynt's reaction. He knows that Joffrey will call for Ned's execution and moves to make sure it happens very swiftly, faster than Cersei can react. While Tyrion is acting Hand he figures out that Slynt is owned by Littlefinger. If Slynt knew ahead of time, then he knew from Littlefinger, and how would Littlefinger know if he wasn't the one whispering in Joffery's ear? Both Cersei, Varys & Yoren make clear they thought the agreement was that Ned be sent to the Wall,

[Tyrion Tanner]

:agree:

He also likes to believe that he's got her under control, but Sansa successfully keeps her feelings and thoughts to herself. Regarding Sansa, Littlefinger seems to forget what he considers the first rule of the game: 'even the humblest pawn may refuse to make the move you designed'.

I think she will be the catalyst for his downfall, but it will primarily be his own fault.

Well put. Her time with Joff and Cersei has surely made her hard to read because she can lock up all that pain and hate. The Lord of Harrenhal seems to genuinely want her to succeed (maybe he's got a play for the War of Three Queens). But I think Sansa won't outsmart him, but instead just ruin his plans by refusing to do whatever heinous acts he has in store for her.

[~Shiera Seastar~]

Just a thought: What if Littlefinger was just trying to lure Sansa on figuring out his secrets/plans/moves? If Sansa figured out those, he’ll discover Sansa’s hidden or developing strength and capability, then use those on his own advantage; like saying to himself, “This girl has some cunning. Hmm… Beware.” In the game, strong and expert players like Littlefinger have to know the strengths and weaknesses of the others, figure out what their possible moves especially when they refuse to make the moves designed to them, and plan some other moves to confuse them.

[eggs]

Didnt the old dwarf prophecy that sansa would slay a giant? better prepare yourself for the inevitable op.

[Light a wight tonight]

He's sexually attracted to a 15 year old, that makes him a pedophile in my book. As for khal drogo he gets called a pedophile all the time and with good reason because he is one by 21st century western standards.

A pedophile is one who is sexually attracted to children. That's children generally, not one in particular. We see none of that in LF's scenes. What he is attracted to is Sansa's likeness to Catelyn, whom he was obsessed with while being a ward of the Tullys. Sansa is Cat at the age he was at Riverrun in LF's mind. His bragging to Sansa about how clever he is is an attempt to impress Cat.

Not to mention Sansa is a teenager, not a child. And she's a married one. Heh.

[Miryana]

Littlefinger has made very risky moves yet so far it's all worked out perfectly due to luck and not just planning (because rather than planning, often he's just been lying and seizing the moment). That can't last forever: even the best players aren't superhuman and this is supposed to be a realistic series. Littlefinger becomes more visible a target the more power he gains, but he doesn't really have any stable power: he's a newcomer with no name and no army, and when people catch on to what he's doing there will be no reason to fear punishment for getting rid of him.

Sansa is in the same location as Littlefinger, she's getting to know more and more of his secrets, and the success of his big plan depends on her being a pawn with no mind of her own. Basically, on her accepting the murder of her little cousin as a necessary sacrifice so she can make a political marriage to a philandering jerk when books 1-4 were all about Sansa learning to hate political marriage and being wanted only for her claim.

Is Littlefinger really going to sail through the series to victory without even a wobble? GRRM has set things up so that his power is extremely precarious.

Also this. And I will continue to call him pedofinger. If you prefer allot of people call him the pissant. But personally I really prefer pedofinger when referring to him.

Wasn't Sansa 11 when Littlefinger first asked Cersei permission to marry her and was denied? There's been some speculation that's what pushed him to whisper to Joffrey that Ned should be executed. What a knight in shining armour he has been for her, scheming to have her father imprisoned/executed so he can marry her and then getting her caught up in a regicide plot so that she'll feel she has nowhere else to go.

[Sansa in the North]

Didnt the old dwarf prophecy that sansa would slay a giant? better prepare yourself for the inevitable op.

I thought that giant was Robert's doll.

[Mladen]

I thought that giant was Robert's doll.

It can be, but Baelish`s sigil is Bravosian Titan (also Giant). It`s still uncertain whether HH saw Sansa and Robert or Sansa and Baelish

[Sansa in the North]

It can be, but Baelish`s sigil is Bravosian Titan (also Giant). It`s still uncertain whether HH saw Sansa and Robert or Sansa and Baelish

I like this! Now I'm really excited for more of Sansa's story :D

[locke and key]

Have to say I love LF personally and don't wanna see him go, but it seems that by indulging in his only weakness (his love for cat) he has managed to undo his own scheming by giving sansa both the power (as lady of both winterfell and the eyrie) and the skills (which she has picked up off him in her time in the eyrie) to defeat him, this is almost sort of poetic irony in that his weakness is what will undo him and for that reason it seems that grrm is sending him down that route

[E-Ro]

A pedophile is one who is sexually attracted to children. That's children generally, not one in particular. We see none of that in LF's scenes. What he is attracted to is Sansa's likeness to Catelyn, whom he was obsessed with while being a ward of the Tullys. Sansa is Cat at the age he was at Riverrun in LF's mind. His bragging to Sansa about how clever he is is an attempt to impress Cat.

Not to mention Sansa is a teenager, not a child. And she's a married one. Heh.

She is a teenager but only barely, she's 13. LFs attraction to her is completely unacceptable to me. It doesn't matter that she looks like cat.

[Straniero]

I think it's more that sooner or later Sansa is going to figure out that Baelish has a weak spot for her and she'll use that to her advantage.

This is pretty much what I logged on to say. I like the notion that he might be undone by his own plans, including teaching Sansa how he uses people and weaknesses to his advantage.

I still have the nagging suspicion that this plan will be foiled more by the following, rather than by a scheming Sansa:

"The dwarf wed Ned Stark's daughter, not mine. Be that as it may. This is only a betrothal. The marriage must needs wait until Cersei is done and Sansa's safely a widow."

Let that sink in: a key to his marriage plan is counting on Cersei to do away with Tyrion. It is not difficult to picture that Tyrion's continuing existence will become known at some point after LF believes it is safe to marry off Sansa. Be that as it may, I do hope that Sansa will have a proactive part in LF's downfall.