Why do so many ASOIAF fans think Sansa will outwit Lord Baelish?

[Mladen]

But, then, how has she advanced since King's Landing? Where she sat around, waiting to be rescued. Never tried to escape, never tried to send a raven, never did anything pro-active in terms of helping her situation, other than telling the truth to the Queen of Thorns, which if I am remembering right she ruined that for herself as well because she told Dontos which is how the Lannisters found out and so she ended up married to Tyrion instead of back at Highgarden. She does what Littlefinger tells her to do. If he tells her to give the kid more drugs that might, and probably will ultimately kill him, she does it without a complaint. If LF didn't tell her what his plans were she would be clueless, she would never reason any of it out on her own. But then, she is one of my least favorite 'good' characters and I simply don't see the character progression that other people do. She is still shallow and extremely passive and slow to figure things out. Perhaps if she had told her aunt what she wanted to hear about the kiss at the outset....as was clear Lysa wanted before she became totally hysterical, then Lysa might be alive...but she didn't "get it" unti lthe whole situation was out of control, by the time she grasped that she should just say "yes, it was all my fault" Lysa was out of control with the moon door open. Too late. Not very perceptive if you ask me.

Plainly wrong and inaccurate analysis...

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

I think she will outwit him because:

1. He lusts after her

2. He underestimates her intelligence and gumption

He lusted after Catelyn too but that didn't stop him from basically ruining her life. I don't know that he underestimates her intelligence, he seemed pleased that she figured out his Corbray plot which is a good indication that she can piece together complex concepts. Littlefinger isn't a man that seems like he misjudges people very often.

[Cas Stark]

I don't think either of them are pedophiles considering Sansa isn't a child, but alot of people seem to think Baelish is and my point is more to them.

I personally don't think Baelish is as evil as hes made out to be. Sure hes no Ned Stark, but look who has honor and look who's still alive. He's far more apt than his detractors on this forum take him to be. And yes hes got alittle hubris (but nothing at all to the levels of Cersei or even Dany). But overall, Cat lust/Daddy thing aside (which I think gets kind of blown out of proportion a teensy bit), Sansa only benefits from working with him. Honestly whats so bad about Baelish's plan for Sansa?

He's not "evil" but he is totally amoral. Don't forget, he's a pimp for one of his main sources of income. He has shown a willingness to doublecross anyone at any time, and no loyalty to anything so far other than to himself.

I'm not even sure how far the Cat love thing goes, since he appears to have sat in KL for over a decade and done nothing regaring her, it was only when opportunity arose with the Starks in KL that the issue came back into play. And then, he betrayed her in every way possible. He betrayed her husband, her house, both of them, and her daughter. As well, he's been telling everyone in KL for years that he bedded both Tully girls, which is not what one usually expects from true love.

[Cat of the Banal]

I don't think Littlefinger is so stupid as to believe he could ever be with Sansa like he wanted to be with Cat, in spite of what the vast majority of people here seem to believe. I think his reasons for keeping her alive my be motivated in part by his love for Cat or even a desire for her, shes much more valuable to him as an unspoiled ally then as a resentful enemy. Regardless of what he has between his legs I don't think he would risk that.

I'm not so stupid as to claim that Petyr Baelish has never done morally questionable things but I think the gross mischaracterization of him as being evil and a villain are way off base.

I think that he does want what he did not have with Cat. He is not stupid, but he is human. The reason why all he has insisted on was a Kiss, is because he is trying to make Sansa fall for him. He wants Sansa to come to him, like Cat never did. He is trying to manipulate her into loving him. She does not realize that.

What he does not realize is that Sansa has a wonderful ability to act. Jofferey and Cersei created an iron woman, Once Littlefinger believes that she is "his" (loves him and wants him), he will let himself be vulnerable and then the Wolf will strike.

I actually like LF as a charactor. He is a lot like Theon when you think about it. He was raised in a house, with a family, that he loved and desperately wanted to be a part of, but would never be. He would never be "good enough" to be one of them, and marry one of the daughters. Just like Theon, his bitterness and frustration drove him to do terrible things. I think Sansa is his idealized way to be a part of his happy Tully family. Unfortunately for LF, that girl is a Stark. The She Wolf will destroy him.

[lady m]

How exactly was she supposed to send a raven? They're controlled by Pycelle. There's no indication there's an alternate way to send them from the Red Keep. She was a hostage in the Red Keep, so it wasn't like she could go somewhere and arrange a message to be sent. She knew all of her maids were in Cersei's pay, so she couldn't trust any of them. Exactly how was she supposed to escape, or gather a plot to gain her escape?

And thus far no one has known what Littlefinger's plans were. Otherwise Ned and Joffrey wouldn't be dead. You're judging a girl who is 11 when we meet her, 12 when she's forced to marry Tyrion, and currently 13 expecting her to have figured out plots Varys didn't have a clue about and he's a master gamesman.

[Cas Stark]

Good grief. *facepalm*

Both the Tyrells and the Lannisters were after Sansa for her claim, not for herself. Which is what her character arc has been about, gaining agency. Not about getting married off to random bloke no 45656. So "ruining for herself", as Dontos told her "Tyrells are Lannisters with roses". Considering the QoT was perfectly happy throwing Sansa under the bus with regards to the Joffrey marriage, I don't think you can consider it that she "ruined it" for herself. Far from it.

She goes along with Littlefinger yes. What should she do? Scream and shout? Or is this another one of those "wrestle LF and throw him out the Moon Door" things?

Factually incorrect. She figures out the Lords Declarant plot all on her own. Reread AFFC.

Then I suggest a reread and a visit to the "Pawn to Player" threads since you have missed *a lot*.

She is passive only so far as she has no other way out, but she still resists where she can. She contradicts Joffrey regarding Dontos, she resists kneeling to Tyrion at their wedding and she rejects him on their wedding night, despite Cersei threatening her with violence beforehand and telling her in no uncertain terms nothing Sansa will do will prevent her from getting wedded and bedded. She also wants to go to Lysa to tell her she will not accept marrying Sweetrobin. In ASOS, she also tells LF in no uncertain terms he should have taken her home, and that he lied to her.

You really think it would have been a better idea to admit to that? When someone wants to throw you out the moon door? I think that's just about the weirdest theory I have seen apart from the "Sansa should have wrestled LF and tossed him out the Moon Door". Lysa was definitely out of control, but how on earth would that have been made better by confessing? If anything, it would have made it *worse*.

Everything you cite basically consists of, "on occasion Sansa talks back, slightly" is that agency? Is that going from pawn to player? She muscled up the never to tell LF he should have taken her home?

Yes, I think as soon as her first declaration to her aunt of her innocence was met with resistance she shoudl have thrown herself on her mercy...a Tyrion Lannister would have come up with some BS about being confused and lonely and oh, help me Aunt or some kind of line that would have reeled Lysa back from the brink.

I've seen the Pawn to Player threads and, I'll just say, it appears to be both massive over analysis and overly charitable reading of her chapters. And since, I'm not particularly interested in starting trouble where I know my opinion will not be wanted, I see no reason to go there simply to disagree.

[Mladen]

I've seen the Pawn to Player threads and, I'll just say, it appears to be both massive over analysis and overly charitable reading of her chapters. And since, I'm not particularly interested in starting trouble where I know my opinion will not be wanted, I see no reason to go there simply to disagree.

Thank God you are not going...It seems to me that you want to prove Sansa`s only crime was not knowing what we know. And that`s just, pardon me, stupid. All the ways she could free herself are impossible, all the attempts are fruitless. Basically, you are condemning her because she just didn`t bang her head on wall.

[Lyanna Stark]

I've seen the Pawn to Player threads and, I'll just say, it appears to be both massive over analysis and overly charitable reading of her chapters. And since, I'm not particularly interested in starting trouble where I know my opinion will not be wanted, I see no reason to go there simply to disagree.

Why not try the reread threads to actually get some understanding of Sansa's arc? You are clearly missing a lot of insight.

Unless you think there is a special point in being uninformed? Plus if you do disagree, at least you can put it plainly in there what your analysis of Sansa is and how the people in the PtP threads are wrong. Clearly, you claim it's all just over analysis and you know better, so why not go prove it?

Everything you cite basically consists of, "on occasion Sansa talks back, slightly" is that agency? Is that going from pawn to player? She muscled up the never to tell LF he should have taken her home?

Then lets hear how you define agency, or what you would find "acceptable agency" for Sansa within the framework for her arc. Clearly, you have a very solid idea of how this should look, and how GRRM avoided inserting it.

How exactly was she supposed to send a raven? They're controlled by Pycelle. There's no indication there's an alternate way to send them from the Red Keep. She was a hostage in the Red Keep, so it wasn't like she could go somewhere and arrange a message to be sent. She knew all of her maids were in Cersei's pay, so she couldn't trust any of them. Exactly how was she supposed to escape, or gather a plot to gain her escape?

Stop involving Logic and Reason!

[Maester Domeric]

I think both Sansa and Petyrs arcs can come to a satisfactory end without either one destroying the other. I'm just not so sure that Petyr Baelish's demise at the hands of Sansa is written in the stars.

He's not "evil" but he is totally amoral. Don't forget, he's a pimp for one of his main sources of income. He has shown a willingness to doublecross anyone at any time, and no loyalty to anything so far other than to himself.

I'm not even sure how far the Cat love thing goes, since he appears to have sat in KL for over a decade and done nothing regaring her, it was only when opportunity arose with the Starks in KL that the issue came back into play. And then, he betrayed her in every way possible. He betrayed her husband, her house, both of them, and her daughter. As well, he's been telling everyone in KL for years that he bedded both Tully girls, which is not what one usually expects from true love.

precisely my point about it being kind of overstated.

i'm fine with amoral characters. So are alot of people, nearly everyone like Tyrion and hes of the similar calibre of morality and I've seen people come to like and root for Jaime, who is just as bad.

I think that he does want what he did not have with Cat. He is not stupid, but he is human. The reason why all he has insisted on was a Kiss, is because he is trying to make Sansa fall for him. He wants Sansa to come to him, like Cat never did. He is trying to manipulate her into loving him. She does not realize that.

What he does not realize is that Sansa has a wonderful ability to act. Jofferey and Cersei created an iron woman, Once Littlefinger believes that she is "his" (loves him and wants him), he will let himself be vulnerable and then the Wolf will strike.

I actually like LF as a charactor. He is a lot like Theon when you think about it. He was raised in a house, with a family, that he loved and desperately wanted to be a part of, but would never be. He would never be "good enough" to be one of them, and marry one of the daughters. Just like Theon, his bitterness and frustration drove him to do terrible things. I think Sansa is his idealized way to be a part of his happy Tully family. Unfortunately for LF, that girl is a Stark. The She Wolf will destroy him.

now this is a more interesting analysis of Petyr Baelish, even if I don't completely agree. Sansa could achieve and be so much more if she just got aboard the Petyr Baelish Express. I know this is probably the most disagreeable thing I could ever possibly say but somewhere deep down a part of me could be okay with "Santyr" to be a real thing one day. I know it would never happen but it would be enjoyable if only for the reaction from these forums. :P

[Cas Stark]

Thank God you are not going...It seems to me that you want to prove Sansa`s only crime was not knowing what we know. And that`s just, pardon me, stupid. All the ways she could free herself are impossible, all the attempts are fruitless. Basically, you are condemning her because she just didn`t bang her head on wall.

I've found that calling people's views "stupid" usually doesn't help change their perceptions, but maybe that's just me.

I see that she never tried anything. If you wan to argue she didn't know who she could trust so that is her reason, then fine, her sister not only managed to get out of KL but has, in her many travels, done a fairly good job of figuring out who she can trust. Sansa, she gave up, threw her hands up, and said to heself, 'oh, I can't trust anyone." And she is not doing anything now in the Vale either.

I don't doubt she will be LF ultimate undoing, but that is because he has given her the amunition, not because she has developed any keen perceptions or strategic thinking capabilities. Yes, she is not as dumb as she was at the beginning of Game of Thrones, but that isn't saying much, since she was dumb on an epic scale.

[Cas Stark]

Why not try the reread threads to actually get some understanding of Sansa's arc? You are clearly missing a lot of insight.

Unless you think there is a special point in being uninformed? Plus if you do disagree, at least you can put it plainly in there what your analysis of Sansa is and how the people in the PtP threads are wrong. Clearly, you claim it's all just over analysis and you know better, so why not go prove it?

Then lets hear how you define agency, or what you would find "acceptable agency" for Sansa within the framework for her arc. Clearly, you have a very solid idea of how this should look, and how GRRM avoided inserting it.

Stop involving Logic and Reason!

No, I did not miss the insight.

No, I am not uninformed.

Just because I don't agree with your reading does not mean I missed the insight or that I an uninformed, that to me, is an extremely condescending view, because you are in effect saying, that the only reading of Sansa's arc is your interpretation, and that an interpretation that is different, less charitable, is uninformed and uninsighful.

[Lyanna Stark]

No, I did not miss the insight.

No, I am not uninformed.

Just because I don't agree with your reading does not mean I missed the insight or that I an uninformed, that to me, is an extremely condescending view, because you are in effect saying, that the only reading of Sansa's arc is your interpretation, and that an interpretation that is different, less charitable, is uninformed and uninsighful.

Oh please. I refuted several of you points with you being factually incorrect, and I have the textual evidence on my side, too. So yes, your views are uninformed. Saying Sansa has no character development is about as fruitful as saying Arya has no character development (both dead wrong).

You are of course completely within your rights to interpret the text to mean something that you thought up yourself, but there is a surplus of evidence that point in the direction that you are wrong. A lot of them are presented in detail in the Pawn to Player threads, especially in the reread part, which you cannot be bothered to read. Hence why you have to excuse me if I take your badly researched and non textual based interpretations with a huge bucket of salt.

Instead of telling me why you are not misinformed, try informing me of what your actual stances are, backed up on the text itself. I find that helps. Get some quotes to prove your point, get some chapters. So far, we have your "interpretation" backed up by....nothing.

For instance, you thought Sansa could send a raven from the Red Keep, and you claim she had no clue about the Lords Declarant plot and that LF explained it to her. You also think Sansa should have accepted and been happy married to a Tyrell, completely disregarding the Tyrell plot to make her complicit in Joffrey's murder.

Yes, she is not as dumb as she was at the beginning of Game of Thrones, but that isn't saying much, since she was dumb on an epic scale.

Sansa isn't dumb, she is naive. Arya points out in one of her early chapters that Sansa is better at every school subject apart from maths. Sansa is also a reader. So no, she is not "dumb", she is naive, has her head in the clouds and is conditioned by Septa Mordane to never contradict her or to think outside the box, or to question her teacher (this is also shown in one of Sansa's AGOT chapters). The one time we see Sansa contradict the Septa, she gets a bollocking.

[Mladen]

I've found that calling people's views "stupid" usually doesn't help change their perceptions, but maybe that's just me.

I see that she never tried anything. If you wan to argue she didn't know who she could trust so that is her reason, then fine, her sister not only managed to get out of KL but has, in her many travels, done a fairly good job of figuring out who she can trust. Sansa, she gave up, threw her hands up, and said to heself, 'oh, I can't trust anyone." And she is not doing anything now in the Vale either.

I don't doubt she will be LF ultimate undoing, but that is because he has given her the amunition, not because she has developed any keen perceptions or strategic thinking capabilities. Yes, she is not as dumb as she was at the beginning of Game of Thrones, but that isn't saying much, since she was dumb on an epic scale.

Well, I am not trying to change your opinion. I am just stating I find it stupid.

As for Arya, she is different story, just like we can`t compare Tommen and Joffrey, or Jaime and Tyrion, we can`t compare Arya and Sansa. But, Arya has proved in more than one occasion to be helpless and powerless just as Sansa. Although we have some idea of Arya going somewhere and doing something, for the most part of COK and SOS, she`s wandering and being tossed from one captor to another. Basically, it`s the same situation in which is Sansa, only Arya is travelling and Sansa is staying at one place.

[lady m]

As for Arya, she is different story, just like we can`t compare Tommen and Joffrey, or Jaime and Tyrion, we can`t compare Arya and Sansa. But, Arya has proved in more than one occasion to be helpless and powerless just as Sansa. Although we have some idea of Arya going somewhere and doing something, for the most part of COK and SOS, she`s wandering and being tossed from one captor to another. Basically, it`s the same situation in which is Sansa, only Arya is travelling and Sansa is staying at one place.

Plus, the only reason Arya escaped is because Syrio was willing to pay for that freedom with his life. Had he not been so adept a swordsman Arya would have been a hostage just like Sansa. Yoren then steps in and gets her out of Kings Landing. I love both girls, but Arya doesn't get away just because Arya is smarter or more proactive.

[Cas Stark]

Oh please. I refuted several of you points with you being factually incorrect, and I have the textual evidence on my side, too. So yes, your views are uninformed. Saying Sansa has no character development is about as fruitful as saying Arya has no character development (both dead wrong).

You are of course completely within your rights to interpret the text to mean something that you thought up yourself, but there is a surplus of evidence that point in the direction that you are wrong. A lot of them are presented in detail in the Pawn to Player threads, especially in the reread part, which you cannot be bothered to read. Hence why you have to excuse me if I take your badly researched and non textual based interpretations with a huge bucket of salt.

Instead of telling me why you are not misinformed, try informing me of what your actual stances are, backed up on the text itself. I find that helps. Get some quotes to prove your point, get some chapters. So far, we have your "interpretation" backed up by....nothing.

Please at least do me the courtesty of not putting words in my mouth and claiming I said things that I never said.

I never said she had no character development, I said her alleged move from pawn to player is over stated because she is still an extremely passive character, and I believe I, too, gave examples from the text, such as her giving the drugs to SweetRobin even though she knows its dangerous without any complaint.

This all started when somone posted that Sansa had made important friends in the Vale, and I said that was no my recollection, my recollection of the text was that she serves wine and cheese and makes small talk, not that she has made any friends or done anything in particular to create any personal trust or loyalty among any of the Vale lords or knights. And I believe the text supports this.

I never said ANYTHING at all about the Lord Declarent plot, period. Again, please stop putting words in my mouth.

PS...I have no reason to believe they would have used Sansa in the plot to kill Joff if she hadn't been married to Tyrion. She would have already been out of KL and in Highgarden. That they did use her in the plot may show they're only Lannisters with roses, but if their own plot had gone as planned she would have been gone from KL and already married to the older brother.

[Lord_Tyrell]

The reason for this is typically when you build up a flaw in someone as well as develop a character, there has to be some payoff to it. Sansa being Littlefinger's demise will in all likelihood happen. Once he finds out about Bran and Rickon being alive, he'll seek to kill them, and Jon Snow for safe measure. Sansa will realize this as well as all the other horrible things he's done to her and her family and kill him over it. Keep in mind that Sansa has no idea that Littlefinger betrayed her father, and she'll also probably figure out that Littlefinger also told Joffrey to kill Ned.

[ARYa_Nym]

Plus, the only reason Arya escaped is because Syrio was willing to pay for that freedom with his life. Had he not been so adept a swordsman Arya would have been a hostage just like Sansa. Yoren then steps in and gets her out of Kings Landing. I love both girls, but Arya doesn't get away just because Arya is smarter or more proactive.

She had help like a lot of people do. Although there is some time in between Syrio and Yoren where Arya uses her resilience and does not get captured.

Anyways, I think she was better in subjects also due to the fact that Arya did not pay attention. She had no incentive to learn about being a good lady and there was no payoff. Not to mention some of the things they were judged on had nothing to do with intelligence. A talent for music and being able to sew for example.

[Mladen]

Anyways, I think she was better in subjects also due to the fact that Arya did not pay attention. She had no incentive to learn about being a good lady and there was no payoff. Not to mention some of the things they were judged on had nothing to do with intelligence. A talent for music and being able to sew for example.

I wouldn`t completely agree that Sansa is `smarter` than Arya only due to Arya`s lack of interest. Following that logic, can we tell for sure which one is a better fighter? Sansa never tried that. The two of them are build duifferently and they of course have different intincts. But, they are both Starks, both of them are wolves. Sansa draws in herself, and Arya runs, that`s all wolf`s normal behaviour faced with danger.

I believe that both of girls are rather intelligent, and they have proved that in many occasion.

[WardenOfTheNorth]

Sandor is significantly younger than LF, and more Sandor wasn`t in love with her mother...

Sandor is only 3 years younger than LF in the books.

[mattah84]

Because Petyr Baelish has a really wierd obsession with Sansa, just like he did her mother Catelyn. He is one of the smartest characters that we have read about thus far, and has always been able to outwit everyone because they either trust him or they don't see him as a threat. Catelyn trusted him, and he gained Eddards trust and played him big time. Lysa Tully trusted him, and he gained Jon Arryn'n trust and later on had Lysa poison him. Cersei and the Lannister's trusted him, and they extended him the freedom to go the Vale and bring it back into the fold by wedding Lysa Tully. Cersei trusted him when he left Kings Landning, but he still managed to have Joffrey poisoned and Sansa brought to him on a boat.

Now he is surrounded by people that do not necessarily trust him. He has granted Nestor Royce the Gate of the Moon in the Vale, thinking this will win him the loyalty that he needs to keep it, because he sees Bronze Yohn as the real enemy. Nestor Royce was a high steward in the Vale, long before Petyr Baelish came around. Littlefinger's title in the Vale came from Lysa Tully, and Lysa Tully alone, and now that she is dead, the other Lords of the Vale don't seem to trust Littlefinger to much. Now you add Sansa to the equation, she was within earshot of Petyr and Lysa's conversation about Poisoning Jon Arryn, she witnessed Littlefinger say he only loved Cat before throwing Lysa out of the Moon Door, and she also has a small inclination that Littlefinger plans on having Robert Arryn killed based on their final conversation that we see.

He no longer has two girls that were almost like sisters to him growing up, or the queen by his side to protect him. He played a part in both Lysa and Catelyn's husbands' murders, murdered Lysa himself, and also poisoned Cersei's son (even though she doesn't know yet). Therefore, while GRRM could very well surprise us and choose a different path, I think it is very fitting that Catelyn's daughter, and Lysa's neice help in bringing him down.