Why do so many ASOIAF fans think Sansa will outwit Lord Baelish?

[lady m]

She had help like a lot of people do. Although there is some time in between Syrio and Yoren where Arya uses her resilience and does not get captured.

Anyways, I think she was better in subjects also due to the fact that Arya did not pay attention. She had no incentive to learn about being a good lady and there was no payoff. Not to mention some of the things they were judged on had nothing to do with intelligence. A talent for music and being able to sew for example.

Oh, I agree, Arya is extremely resourceful once she gets away. Though she is beginning to dispair when she encounters Yoren. I'm just saying its not like Arya just happened to get away, she didn't do it on her own. Syrio paid for her freedom with his life, more than likely, and she wouldn't have gotten out of KL altogether without Yoren. She has no more idea than Sansa how to get back to Winterfell before encountering Yoren, much like Sansa doesn't have a clue how to get out of the Red Keep till Dontos approaches her. Both long for home, neither are able to get there on their own.

[Chickren]

It's not so much that Sansa is terribly clever (she isn't), or that Littlefinger is inept (he isn't), it's that he has a terrible blind-spot when it comes to her. He will never see it coming.

Well said.

[Cas Stark]

He may not die. I would much prefer he dies and Varys lives, but LF, who is totally amoral and plots only for his personal gain, has no other, wider agenda beyond whatever he wants is the type of guy who usually survives. He may lose all of his titles and have to go back to the Fingers and start over, but I wouldn't be so sure he dies.

[ARYa_Nym]

Oh, I agree, Arya is extremely resourceful once she gets away. Though she is beginning to dispair when she encounters Yoren. I'm just saying its not like Arya just happened to get away, she didn't do it on her own. Syrio paid for her freedom with his life, more than likely, and she wouldn't have gotten out of KL altogether without Yoren. She has no more idea than Sansa how to get back to Winterfell before encountering Yoren, much like Sansa doesn't have a clue how to get out of the Red Keep till Dontos approaches her. Both long for home, neither are able to get there on their own.

I don't think other poster said she did it on her own just that she was proactive. She could have easily been killed, captured, or raped between going from Syrio to Yoren. The Lannisters did try to trap her with the ship.

But it's also true that she needed help.

[Faint]

It's spoilery but from the Barriston Winds chapter I got the impression that she will help in his downfall but someone else will actually kill him.

That's interesting . . . I read the reports from those chapters, what are you referring to?

[Jasta11]

It's more like hoping the bastard ends up with the dagger in the back that he completely deserves, and that since Sansa has suffered more at her hand that at anyone else's she should be the one to do it. I don't think she,s gonna be the one, but I guess it's the reasoning behind it anyway.

[Kyoti]

That's the problem with storytelling and movies. They always have guys like Ned Stark win in the end and act like things will change and everyone will live happily ever after. That's why I was intrigued with Game of Thrones when they had Ned betrayed and then beheaded. If LF dies that will be ok, but realistically someone will just rise up and take his place the same way he did.

A agree that this is a far more complex and realistic story than most fantasy would dare to be, however when the entire story for five books has revolved around who sits the IT how is it that you reconcile in your own mind a minor charter with so little page time "winning" in the end? As "realistic" as that might be it would be neither bittersweet as GRRM said it would end, nor is it the least bit satisfying for anyone except the very very minor percentage of LF fans that have convinced themselves he has a chance of emerging victorious. Knowing HBO knows how this story ends how do you reconcile them putting that on TV with that horrible ending?

[ARYa_Nym]

That's interesting . . . I read the reports from those chapters, what are you referring to?

Ser Wun Wun is really good at spotting foreshadowing imo.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/81338-twow-spoilers-barristan/page__st__100#entry4123358

[WardenOfTheNorth]

It's spoilery but from the Barriston Winds chapter I got the impression that she will help in his downfall but someone else will actually kill him.

What in that chapter gave you that impression?

[lady m]

I don't know about Sansa not being the one to kill Littlefinger. She can always poison him. I can't imagine a scenario where she would actually knife him or anything like that but poison would seem her natural weapon of choice, the same as any woman.

And she just happens to have Chekhov's hairnet still in her possession. If she actually kills him that will be how, a fairly nonviolent way, for the poisoner. I agree, she won't knife him or anything like that.

[Castellan]

I don't know about outwit but I think she is more wary of him than she lets on and may escape him, or be rescued, if she gets the opportunity. Otherwise, he has no incentive to actually knock her off, so she may survive, in his clutches, for a long time.

I don't see Petyr as overwhelmingly attracted to her either, he is just planning to use her. I think he loved Cat.

[Maester Domeric]

This. So much this.

All of the LF fans seem to love this twisted idea that he will somehow be the last man standing because he's so smart, but Sansa is his Chekhov's Gun. Also, if he were to win, it would make him the first character in literary history to ever have something like this happen to them. He is a tertiary character at best (Not a POV, not even a secondary character in a main POV's chapters, he's a secondary character at best in secondary at best POVs), nowhere in the history of storytelling does that guy end up the winner at the end. Unless GRRM is going for the most epic build up to the worst ending of any series in history LF CAN'T win. And if he can't win that means SOMEONE has to beat him, and all of the clues point to Sansa as that someone.

A agree that this is a far more complex and realistic story than most fantasy would dare to be, however when the entire story for five books has revolved around who sits the IT how is it that you reconcile in your own mind a minor charter with so little page time "winning" in the end? As "realistic" as that might be it would be neither bittersweet as GRRM said it would end, nor is it the least bit satisfying for anyone except the very very minor percentage of LF fans that have convinced themselves he has a chance of emerging victorious. Knowing HBO knows how this story ends how do you reconcile them putting that on TV with that horrible ending?

LF winning worst ending in any series in history? hyperbole much

Horrible ending? who are you to make declarations and pretend your some absolute authority about what makes a good ending?

Its as if by anyone having an opinion on a character they happen to like, whos motives and subplot are more interesting and compelling than the generic protagonist Starks or the cookie cutter troubled antihero-looking for redemption Lannisters they've somehow slighted you personally. Get over yourself. Learn to accept a diversity of opinions.

I don't even know what you mean by "winning" in relation to Petyr Baelish. Sitting the Iron Throne? Surviving? Marrying Sansa to fulfill some delusional fantasy about her mother? Unless you're privy to some higher order of information on Petyr's true motives and end game, you're just ranting on the internet cause someone said something you didn't like. And I call bullshit on anyone who claims to understand his motives or endgame yet.

For the record I think its unlikely that he will be alive in the end (i just also think hes not some Scooby-doo villain who will be standing there yelling "...and I would have gotten away with it too if it weren't for those meddling Starks and their direwolves), but that doesn't stop me from hoping. If he does "win" (whatever that means), it would be the biggest and best middle finger to his audiences expectations ever, better and bigger then Ned and the Red Wedding combined. Hey look, I just named two places where this series has defied convention before. I don't take that as proof of Petyr Baelish "winning" (mostly cause i'm not stupid and delusion as you seem to imply all LF fans are), but I do take that as proof that nothing is sacred is ASOIAF (especially likable protagonists) and things you don't expect to happen can happen, have happened and in all likelihood may happen again.

to sum it up, lifes short, learn to tolerate other peoples opinions on subjective things like literature and try to come off as less of a dick.

oh and LF4EVA

[Sweetgirl205]

I think Sansa will actually work with Banish. He's a pro at the Game of Thrones. She is willing to learn. She could have ratted him out for killing Lysa, but didn't. She knows what side her bread is buttered on now. Sansa is about to get a lot more interesting.

On a side note, what are the rules for annulment in Westros? She is still legally married to Tyrion.

[Grimlorn]

A agree that this is a far more complex and realistic story than most fantasy would dare to be, however when the entire story for five books has revolved around who sits the IT how is it that you reconcile in your own mind a minor charter with so little page time "winning" in the end? As "realistic" as that might be it would be neither bittersweet as GRRM said it would end, nor is it the least bit satisfying for anyone except the very very minor percentage of LF fans that have convinced themselves he has a chance of emerging victorious. Knowing HBO knows how this story ends how do you reconcile them putting that on TV with that horrible ending?

They'll probably change the ending how they see fit just like they've changed other stuff. I don't think LF will sit on the throne or win it. To be honest, we don't know what his endgame is and I think it's unrealistic for him to think he can gain it.

But I'd rather it not end with some righteous person on the throne and all the bad people dead like some Disney movie or something. I'm almost certain we'll get a strong king on the throne, I just think people like LF will always be around vying for power below the throne itself. I mean the best I expect him to get is a ruling house of one of the 7 kingdoms, probably by marrying into it. Having the possibility his heir can marry into the royal family. Seems unrealistic to hope to conquer the throne in his position.

[jons nissa]

Pawn to player thread is one of the most organized, developed thread here. The purpose of the thread i to give a wider picture some of you have missed (obviously). Also it provides with objective analysis of not just her, then all the characters she encountered with. Calling it a fanfic is just rude and even more a lie. No one is claiming that Sansa will become a player in the next chapter, as I said it`s a marathon of baby steps. Assumptions people make at P2P thread are far logical than half of those I read here. Conclusion written there by regular posters are those drawn from material we have, not some idealized version of it. Of course, if you put an effort to read it, you would already know this.

actually it is very subjective.

I think his point is that people aren't calling Sandor a pedophile with the same consistency and veracity as they accuse Littlefinger of being one, when in all fairness if we're applying those fast and loose definitions of pedophilia across the board, Sandor is just as much a pedophile. It just people feel seem to feel sympathy for him and the shippers don't seem to have a problem with sansan. seems a bit hypocritical.

it is. allow me to demonstrate:

Posted 25 January 2013 - 09:22 AM

I'm confused. Did Robb actually disinherit Sansa?

<snip>

I don't see anywhere in this passage where Robb or Catelyn suggest something like "I must strip Sansa of the Stark name and all right to its lands and titles," which is what I usually consider to be disinheriting. It's essentially saying "Sansa Stark is no blood of mine."

the app is brilliant when it is convenient:

Posted 25 January 2013 - 09:48 AM

iirc it was confirmed in the app that Robb named Jon as heir in which case Sansa was either disinherited or knocked down in the order of succession.

Yes, it was confirmed that Robb did make Jon legitimate. As it stood, Sansa would still have been heir to Winterfell, but as Sansa Lannister or as Stannis snidely calls her, Lady Lannister. I'm using the term disinheritance to indicate Sansa's removal from the line of succession.

Posted 07 December 2012 - 03:18 AM

Pod The Impaler, on 07 December 2012 - 03:00 AM, said:

Personally, I think people taking the apps as canon-confirming material is a mistake.

Well, it is released as the official Song of Ice and Fire app, and GRRM himself calls it "official". Link here.

sandor is love:

Posted 09 December 2012 - 04:47 PM

It is now confirmed that Sandor fell for Sansa pretty much the moment he saw her. *awww* :P

Posted 26 January 2013 - 08:46 PM

Sansa and Sandor and the phases of the ideal story of courtly love:

Posted 06 December 2012 - 09:12 PM

brashcandy, on 06 December 2012 - 07:16 PM, said:

So even if they never meet again, and Sansa goes on to marry someone else (wow, I'm typing that like there might be a chance she and Sandor could get married - holyguacamoleexcusethisfangirlmomentpleaseibegyou), I think she'll consciously/unconsciously choose a man who resembles him in fundamental ways.

Don't worry, I'm still holding out on the slim chance of their being a Lord and Lady Clegane at the Keep on the Fingers! Really hoping the Jaime line about letting her forget she is a stark comes true. Also Alyane and Clegane even sound the same.

littlefinger is pedo:

LF was attracted to eleven year old Sansa in GoT-pre-pubescent enough for you?

so was sandor. in fact, he fell in love with her at first sight when he visited winterfell.

i do think that littlefinger is a problem with regards to his attraction to sansa though.

the app is crazy when it is convenient:

Posted Today, 01:21 PM

Ragnorak, on 11 March 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:

I think the Sandor falling in love with Sansa at first sight was one of those things in the App.

that gives me the distinct impression that the app has been taking something from pisswater bend seeing as there is no textual clue

Yep, but there is nothing in the text to indicate that this is true, so I guess it depends if the app is supposed to be 100% canon, or not.

i am not advocating littlefinger over sandor. in fact my earlier post states he is very problematic for sansa. however, it is clear there is not the same standard being held for those interested in sansa. in the end, she is in the best position to rid herself of littlefinger with a stone from her hairnet because he underestimates her.

it is a logical progression of her arc however, there may be the desire to keep sansa from committing such a grey act. my theory is that she will do something to dirty hands since all the stark children are becoming more grey but that may not be killing petyr. hard to say at this point.

and while she will never be another littlefinger, it seems to be a give that she will probably develop some political acumen.

[UnbentFury]

I've found that calling people's views "stupid" usually doesn't help change their perceptions, but maybe that's just me.

I see that she never tried anything. If you wan to argue she didn't know who she could trust so that is her reason, then fine, her sister not only managed to get out of KL but has, in her many travels, done a fairly good job of figuring out who she can trust. Sansa, she gave up, threw her hands up, and said to heself, 'oh, I can't trust anyone." And she is not doing anything now in the Vale either.

I don't doubt she will be LF ultimate undoing, but that is because he has given her the amunition, not because she has developed any keen perceptions or strategic thinking capabilities. Yes, she is not as dumb as she was at the beginning of Game of Thrones, but that isn't saying much, since she was dumb on an epic scale.

Dear god this post is amazing. I really don't understand how people have gone so far in completely and totally overanalyzing every single thing Sansa has done. While she has had her bright moments(Dontos, LF's Vale Plan) in the grand scheme of things she has done nothing but act the way a young girl who was terrified of losing her life would. Which, you know is perfectly understandable, but just because she's managed to survive by doing as she's told,doesn't mean she's some kind of strong political opponent and quite frankly, the amount of near obsessive over-analyzation, boggles my fucking mind.

It's not so much that Sansa is terribly clever (she isn't), or that Littlefinger is inept (he isn't), it's that he has a terrible blind-spot when it comes to her. He will never see it coming.

This pretty much sums everything up. If any one is going to be Littlefinger's downfall, it'll be Littlefinger's raging narcissism.

I pretty much agree with his. Those pawn to player threads almost read like fanfics. People are making huge assumptions and guesses about characters and are pretty much stating them as facts. Stating how people are thinking and what their motivations are when we have no POV on those characters. Sansa makes one guess about Lyn Corbray after learning of LF's past plans and everyone is assuming she will outsmart him and kill him. Everyone is also assuming she's really smart because of that when any child could have guessed that knowing how his plans worked in the past.

GRRM was pretty careful in Sansa's POV chapters, not really revealing too much of what she was really feeling or thinking. Personally, I think she comes off as just a dumb, pretty girl in the past and those are a dime a dozen. People can say it's naivety but she's still been shown to be pretty passive and stupid. Girls like Sansa aren't that rare, but men like Sandor who can stand on top of so many warriors are. That takes something special. Same with LF. He had to rise from the bottom to get to the top, and he did it using his mind, which is also very rare. She'd be lucky to have either really. For all we know LF doesn't care about her and is just using her, maybe she is a blind spot for him which will lead to his downfall, but we don't know yet and it will be interesting to see how it unfolds.

About Nestor Royce. As long as he wants to keep the Moon Gates he'll help LF and so far that's what we saw in the meeting with the Lords Declarant where he publically sided with LF there. Assuming he isn't allied with LF is wishful thinking. He wouldn't have defended LF had he not wanted to help him so he could keep the Moon Gates. GRRM has LF explain it to Sansa so the reader understands it. This could of course change in the future but so far LF's plans have all come to fruition.

And this.

She's not dumb in that she has a low IQ, but her innate perceptive ability is low. Her sister saw Joff and the Queen for exactly what they were from the beginning, Sansa didn't, not even after the Lady incident. She doesn't understand why her father sends Dondarrion to the Riverlands. And it is a huge question as to what if anything Sansa would be able to figure out on her own if LF wasn't giving her his wholel strategy to begin with.

I do think LF has a blind spot about her, otherwise, there is no reason why he would be telling her so much, why he would be teaching her anything. And I do think GRRM will eventually have Sansa be LF's downfall. He may want to use her in his schemes but she still knows he murdered Lysa and the singer...and "Sansa Stark" will be more believable that his bastard natural daughter if it ever comes to that. So, he has already done multiple things that weaken his position which we have not ever seen him do previously...he's got a confidant...he's left a life witness to direct crimes...very dangerous.

And also this.

[UnbentFury]

Pawn to player thread is one of the most organized, developed thread here. The purpose of the thread i to give a wider picture some of you have missed (obviously). Also it provides with objective analysis of not just her, then all the characters she encountered with. Calling it a fanfic is just rude and even more a lie. No one is claiming that Sansa will become a player in the next chapter, as I said it`s a marathon of baby steps. Assumptions people make at P2P thread are far logical than half of those I read here. Conclusion written there by regular posters are those drawn from material we have, not some idealized version of it. Of course, if you put an effort to read it, you would already know this.

I'd say the fact that you seem to be taking a condescending and offended approach at people who are disagreeing with you and implying that they are inherently wrong if they don't see Sansa as a burgeoning player and clearly just don't 'get it', is a clear indication against this statement. But that's just my personal take on it. :dunno:

[UnbentFury]

actually it is very subjective.

it is. allow me to demonstrate:

the app is brilliant when it is convenient:

sandor is love:

littlefinger is pedo:

the app is crazy when it is convenient:

i am not advocating littlefinger over sandor. in fact my earlier post states he is very problematic for sansa. however, it is clear there is not the same standard being held for those interested in sansa. in the end, she is in the best position to rid herself of littlefinger with a stone from her hairnet because he underestimates her.

it is a logical progression of her arc however, there may be the desire to keep sansa from committing such a grey act. my theory is that she will do something to dirty hands since all the stark children are becoming more grey but that may not be killing petyr. hard to say at this point.

and while she will never be another littlefinger, it seems to be a give that she will probably develop some political acumen.

I could see Sansa getting her hands dirty with LF, and I'd actually enjoy this turn of events, but unless she gets some kind of marriage set up or is cleared of her 'crimes', allowing to take her Stark name back, she's pretty much dependent on him at this point without any other allies to rally with her.

[Dicer]

I have to agree with Unbentfury. I have tried reading the Pawn to Player threads but it's just way too much of extrapolation and adding meaning to every little thing that makes Sansa into something she is not. I have seen comments suggesting that she is this amazing political schemer just because she was able to manipulate SweetRobin who is this sickly little child. When characters her age are matching wits with adults, I find the fact that she is able to get this little messed up kid to do things not all that great in the grand scheme of things.

I also think it's condescending to suggest that people who don't agree with those posts are stupid or uniformed. We read the texts just as others do and make our own interpretations. Just because we do it different, that does not mean your interpretation is right and ours are wrong. A text can be interpretated in any way. That's why it's fiction. That's why it's art.

Like others have said Sansa is an average, scared little girl at this point and there is nothing to indicate that she is anything special or politically savvy. The reason she is found lacking, at least to me, is because she pales in comparison to her more colorful counterparts in the similar age range. Characters like Arya and Dany who are pro-active and try to do something to change their situation even if that situation does end up bad or the decsions they make are stupid. But the fact that they try is a major point for me.

I find Sansa to be one of the least interesting characters and mostly read her POVs to find out about what LF is upto, but I don't find the character herself to be intriguing or interesting. I feel sad for her, pity that she has gone through so much. But I would like her more if she had more agency and was a bit more active.

[Kyoti]

LF winning worst ending in any series in history? hyperbole much

Horrible ending? who are you to make declarations and pretend your some absolute authority about what makes a good ending?

Its as if by anyone having an opinion on a character they happen to like, whos motives and subplot are more interesting and compelling than the generic protagonist Starks or the cookie cutter troubled antihero-looking for redemption Lannisters they've somehow slighted you personally. Get over yourself. Learn to accept a diversity of opinions.

I don't even know what you mean by "winning" in relation to Petyr Baelish. Sitting the Iron Throne? Surviving? Marrying Sansa to fulfill some delusional fantasy about her mother? Unless you're privy to some higher order of information on Petyr's true motives and end game, you're just ranting on the internet cause someone said something you didn't like. And I call bullshit on anyone who claims to understand his motives or endgame yet.

For the record I think its unlikely that he will be alive in the end (i just also think hes not some Scooby-doo villain who will be standing there yelling "...and I would have gotten away with it too if it weren't for those meddling Starks and their direwolves), but that doesn't stop me from hoping. If he does "win" (whatever that means), it would be the biggest and best middle finger to his audiences expectations ever, better and bigger then Ned and the Red Wedding combined. Hey look, I just named two places where this series has defied convention before. I don't take that as proof of Petyr Baelish "winning" (mostly cause i'm not stupid and delusion as you seem to imply all LF fans are), but I do take that as proof that nothing is sacred is ASOIAF (especially likable protagonists) and things you don't expect to happen can happen, have happened and in all likelihood may happen again.

to sum it up, lifes short, learn to tolerate other peoples opinions on subjective things like literature and try to come off as less of a dick.

oh and LF4EVA

Wow, gear down big shifter. Reread your own post and apply. Not sure how you took any of that as a personal attack, but it's just a book. Littlefinger is a fictional character.

And yeah, my post pretty much says it, it's for those people who put a pretty minor character up on a pedestal as if he's anything more than a trope. He serves exactly two purposes; he's GRRMs daus ex machina (daus ex littlefinger?), and he's Sansa's problem to deal with. To build him up to be anything other than that is to not just ignore the text in ASOIAF, but to ignore almost every story ever written. If LF is anything but dead and/or humiliated it wouldn't be the equivalent of the Joker winning at the end of Dark Knight and killing Batman, it would be like the Russian mob boss beating them both and ending up in control Gotham. That ending wouldn't satisfy anyone except people who love Russian mob bosses (and who doesn't), but the vast majority of people would have just left disappointed. GRRM is a lot of things, but he isn't going to destroy his legacy just because no one's ever done it before.