Why do so many ASOIAF fans think Sansa will outwit Lord Baelish?

[lady m]

I thought that giant was Robert's doll.

What's the point of a prophecy foretelling of Sansa pulling apart a doll? This is the same woman that made the PTWP prophecy that Rhaegar was so obsessed with. The Baelish family sigil before Littlefinger changed it was a stone giant representing Braavos, which is where his family comes from.

[~Shiera Seastar~]

I like the notion that he might be undone by his own plans, including teaching Sansa how he uses people and weaknesses to his advantage.

Unless Littlefinger is just trying to discover if Sansa will try to make a move to cause his downfall. One thing he should prioritize is how to keep his ass safe, not cause any action that will defeat him in the game. Letting Sansa believe that she is his weakness will give her a chance to show her capability. He'll discover that Sansa won't do the moves he designed for her so he'll try to do a different approach to confuse her or find a way to weaken her position and make her even more dependent to him. That sounds scary and it gives me bad chills. I hope Sansa will be very careful of her moves 'coz that guy is cunning and dangerous.

[Dicer]

What do you think will happen on a day when she says to them who she is? They`ll turn her down? No, she doesn`t need to procur allies she already has. And Vale lords will do their best to protect her from everyone. Why? Here are some reasons

1. She`s Stark of Winterfell, and Starks and Arryns have been friends for quite some time

2. She is cousin of their liege lord, furthermore it seems that he has become depenent of her

3. Blackfish is her great-uncle, and these are people who utterly respect him, also never forget Ned was raised in Eyrie

4. She is supposingly the only living child of Ned Stark and therefore an heiress of the North

The are tons of reasons why Vale lords would stand for her in the time of need. And never foorget Royce`s words: We remember.

That's all well and good, but that's all because she is a Stark. The question was what has Sansa herself done specially to try to win the favor of these lords. Nothing. As far as I can remember she was even scared to speak to them when they questioned her about Lysa and LF had to step up. And then she just stood by and observed what was happening.

And that's the problem I have with all these 'pawn to player' statements. From my reading of her POV, she is still not taking matters into her own hand and trying to do something, anything to change things. I admit LF is a too clever opponent for a 13 yr old girl, when he has outwitted the likes of Ned and Cersei. But I would still like to see her take some small steps towards doing something clever and secretive. I really want her to have some agency.

I am hoping to see something like that in the next two books where she actually takes the steps towards becoming a player.

[jons nissa]

She is a teenager but only barely, she's 13. LFs attraction to her is completely unacceptable to me. It doesn't matter that she looks like cat.

except that his attraction to her is based entirely and solely on the fact that she DOES look like cat. otherwise, he hasn't been interested in any other woman. and again, sansa's married. she's hardly seen as a child by anyone anymore. i know there was a long thread about situations like this -- i guess we have to decide whether we use our 21st century lens or the westeros lens regarding whether he is doing something wrong by being attracted to her.

what i think we can all agree on is that acting on his attraction, given that he is telling her to think of him as her father and that she has no options regarding doing as he wants or being discovered, given that, his forcing her to kiss him is very wrong.

still, without littlefinger, she would still be in king's landing and would not be able to apprentice from him.

[jons nissa]

Unless Littlefinger is just trying to discover if Sansa will try to make a move to cause his downfall. One thing he should prioritize is how to keep his ass safe, not cause any action that will defeat him in the game. Letting Sansa believe that she is his weakness will give her a chance to show her capability. He'll discover that Sansa won't do the moves he designed for her so he'll try to do a different approach to confuse her or find a way to weaken her position and make her even more dependent to him. That sounds scary and it gives me bad chills. I hope Sansa will be very careful of her moves 'coz that guy is cunning and dangerous.

if he turns out to be this calculating, i will be in complete awe of him.

[pamparius]

2) I don't see people talking about Drogo as Khal Pedo, almost ever

? he gets accused of being a rapist all the time on these boards.

[Winter's Knight]

But even by modern standards your statement is incorrect. Pedophiles are sexually attracted to pre-pubescent children. The definition is pretty specific in that the object of a pedophile's attraction is pre-puberty, and does not yet have development of sexual characteristics. Sansa doesnt qualify for any of that.

I see a lot of people use the term pedophile as a slander on this forum, but in almost every case that person is ignorant of the actual definition of the term.

LF was attracted to eleven year old Sansa in GoT-pre-pubescent enough for you?

[~Shiera Seastar~]

if he turns out to be this calculating, i will be in complete awe of him.

It's Littlefinger and we do not know what's truly in his mind. But I hope Sansa will find a way to slip from his finger.

[jons nissa]

LF was attracted to eleven year old Sansa in GoT-pre-pubescent enough for you?

so was sandor. in fact, he fell in love with her at first sight when he visited winterfell.

i do think that littlefinger is a problem with regards to his attraction to sansa though.

[Maester Domeric]

? he gets accused of being a rapist all the time on these boards.

rapist is not the same as pedophile. it seems that whatever notions of pedophilia people have concerning Drogo (and I recognize that people do have them) are secondary to his stature of rapist, and even that of being dany's lover . Where as Littlefinger's supposed pedophilia is made out to be his defining characteristic.

[Nausicaä]

Just checked Sansa is 13 as of storm, not 15.

FWIW, she was 11 when he started creeping on her (stroking her face, making her feel like he undressed her with his eyes) and when he asked for her to be married to him.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

Because of a prophecy. I'm a believer too. lol, not a belieber, mind you.

Prophecies are metaphorical, she's not gonna kill him but she'll be the reason of his downfall.

[David Selig]

so was sandor. in fact, he fell in love with her at first sight when he visited winterfell.

He did? Are you sure about this? I am almost positive they don't appear in the same scene together while they were at Winterfell..

[ChromeWeasel]

Ok by strict definition he is not a pedophile what he has is closest to hebiphilia. Where I live sex with a 13 year old is statutory rape and even though he hasn't raped her yet he forced her to kiss him in a sexual manner and has obviously strong sexual desire for her. That to me is a major problem and he needs help and therapy for it unfortunately westeros does not have that. Like I said we aren't supposed to sympathize with LF it's ok that some people do but that is clearly not the authors intent and he has portrayed lf as a villain who is not to be trusted.

Baelish is not to be trusted for many reasons. He's a very selfish person and he's very good at playing multiple sides in a conflict. That doesnt have anything to do with his sexual activities though. There are plenty of legitimate reasons to not like the character if you choose.

I agree that if Baelish lived 'where you live' he'd potentially be in trouble for kissing a 13 year old. But the thing is that he doesn't live there, or even anywhere on Earth in the modern time period. He's a character in a medieval fantasy world where a young woman of Sansa's age and physical development is considered for all relevant purposes to be an adult. That's very far from being a pedophile. Again, that's a person who would be sexually attracted to children that havent even developed sexual characteristics yet.

One of the things I've enjoyed in the books was the concept of adulthood (age of majority, give or take) being closer to the actual Medieval concept than the modern concept. It's one of the things that adds a lot of realism to the story. We have gotten used to an age of 18 or so being adulthood in modern society, but that's certainly not the only concept around. And this is especially true for the nobility. They would be married at ridiculously young ages in unfortunate circumstances.

Quick quote about this that I'm taking my queues from, on age of majority:

Canon Law (Church Law) governed some aspects of this: Church rulings of the 1150s and 1160s stated that “there can be no espousal or marriage before the age of 7”. In the 1170s, 12 was made the critical age. Espousal was like today's engagement, but rather more legally binding.

As far as becoming treated as an adult, for the nobility this was at age 12 - for example Prince Richard (son of Henry II and later Richard I) was granted his first personal seal at the age of 12, indicating his entitlement to issue warrants, charters and other legal documents in his own right.

For the vast majority of the population (the non-nobles), no age of majority was ever established, in other words there was no set age at which a person became an adult. When they were old enough to do manual work they did it, this could be as young as 6 or 7. If a girl could be promised in marriage at age 7, she would normally wait until about the age of 14 until the ceremony took place (Matilda grand-daughter of William I married the Holy Roman Emperor at age 11, but this was slightly younger than usual).

[jons nissa]

He did? Are you sure about this? I am almost positive they don't appear in the same scene together while they were at Winterfell..

it was stated in the asoiaf app. some take that as canon, some don't. ran and grrm seem to be ok with it though.

[Mladen]

That's all well and good, but that's all because she is a Stark. The question was what has Sansa herself done specially to try to win the favor of these lords. Nothing. As far as I can remember she was even scared to speak to them when they questioned her about Lysa and LF had to step up. And then she just stood by and observed what was happening.

And that's the problem I have with all these 'pawn to player' statements. From my reading of her POV, she is still not taking matters into her own hand and trying to do something, anything to change things. I admit LF is a too clever opponent for a 13 yr old girl, when he has outwitted the likes of Ned and Cersei. But I would still like to see her take some small steps towards doing something clever and secretive. I really want her to have some agency.

I am hoping to see something like that in the next two books where she actually takes the steps towards becoming a player.

But, becoming player is marathon of baby steps. It works that way... You have to see subtle changes that are happening with each chapter, to understand that she`s more and more different with every page. It`s not sudden change, it has to happen slowly. She has done plenty of things, Robert has in some way acknowledged her as his mother, and it seems to me that people in Eyrie see her like Lady. She is organized, mannered... She has some agency and that`s returning home. She thinks LF can make that possible. But, as I said, don`t look at Game of thrones as something in that is always unfair and where only dishonest can win. Game is subtler than that, and in time of needs, honesty can be the best approach.

Sansa is playing her game of obedience and manners. She was taught that manners are powerful weapon and now she realizes that being obedient is the best way to deal with everyone. She won`t play the same game LF plays, for she`ll logically lose it. But, if she surprises him with things unseen in the Game, that`s where she has chance. Never forget, Alayne is LF`s creature, but Sansa is free of his will. Sansa isn`t Cat, she has secrets, and at the end she`s much like her father than her mother. And LF`s inability to see that, his inability to see her heart and soul completely will be his doom. You have to know players in the Game, and Sansa now knows LF, but he doesn`t know her...And that`s how she`ll win him.

[jons nissa]

But, becoming player is marathon of baby steps.

what a fabulous way to put that. in fact, i think grrm wants desperately to show us that every journey these characters are on (especially the "leaders") is a marathon of very small, baby steps. wonderfully put!

[Lummel]

so was sandor. in fact, he fell in love with her at first sight when he visited winterfell.

i do think that littlefinger is a problem with regards to his attraction to sansa though.

in the books they are not even mentioned as being together in winterfell so that's a double stretch considering we don't get a Sandor POV and he mentions nothing about falling in love.

[Ragnorak]

in the books they are not even mentioned as being together in winterfell so that's a double stretch considering we don't get a Sandor POV and he mentions nothing about falling in love.

I think the Sandor falling in love with Sansa at first sight was one of those things in the App.

[Winter's Knight]

so was sandor. in fact, he fell in love with her at first sight when he visited winterfell.

And?