Dany ,the Dragonlord,and the Dragonbond

[evita mgfs]

WOLFMAID7: HELLO AGAIN. I just came across a brand new thread you may adore - "textual" evidence of Targs actually being inbred with dragons.. Check it out! http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/100583-princess-and-the-queen-confirmsspoliers/

[nanother]

Don't have the time to read the whole thread, but when we did the Heretic re-read of AGoT we did find some similarities between Dany's dragon dreams and Bran's 3EC dream, as well as other parallels. See: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/81371-dragons-stirring-a-heretical-look-at-dany/

So yes, I agree that there's a bond that's similar to skinchanging, but so far I'm uncertain about the nature of this bond. But it seems that P&tQ might have additional pointers :drool:

[wolfmaid7]

WOLFMAID7: HELLO AGAIN. I just came across a brand new thread you may adore - "textual" evidence of Targs actually being inbred with dragons.. Check it out! http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/100583-princess-and-the-queen-confirmsspoliers/

I've been so excited about this because i've been picking up a little chatter from the book( I won't get my copy until the 6th) but the revelations thus far are amazing and it seems that this thread was on point.I read that little tidbit on the link you provided and my brain is buzzing because i had a sense about her ( withholding name on purpose)

Don't have the time to read the whole thread, but when we did the Heretic re-read of AGoT we did find some similarities between Dany's dragon dreams and Bran's 3EC dream, as well as other parallels. See: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/81371-dragons-stirring-a-heretical-look-at-dany/

So yes, I agree that there's a bond that's similar to skinchanging, but so far I'm uncertain about the nature of this bond. But it seems that P&tQ might have additional pointers :drool:

Oooo that's nice i will be taking a look at that later.The nature of the bond is something i've been pondering and one of those little chatter gave me the impression that the other Valyrians never rode dragons but i'll confirm it or not when i start reading the novella.

[evita mgfs]

I've been so excited about this because i've been picking up a little chatter from the book( I won't get my copy until the 6th) but the revelations thus far are amazing and it seems that this thread was on point.I read that little tidbit on the link you provided and my brain is buzzing because i had a sense about her ( withholding name on purpose)

Oooo that's nice i will be taking a look at that later.The nature of the bond is something i've been pondering and one of those little chatter gave me the impression that the other Valyrians never rode dragons but i'll confirm it or not when i start reading the novella.

I think you are presenting some of your theory in Heresy thread, so I may get mixed up with where certain comments have been maid. Anyway, what has always bothered me about Dany is that she did not demand to see Rhaego - she relies on Jorah to give her second-hand information - or hearsay.

As a mother, especially after enduring a difficult birth, I would want "evidence" of Rhaego's death - I'd want to hold my baby and say good-bye. We all know what Martin says about seeing the dead body - or the actual death - of a character?

Jorah has not always been on Dany's side, after all. By this time he is - but the entire mystery around Rhaego troubles me. For example, why isn't Rhaego's corpse burned with Drogo's?

Recently, Prince George was born, and we saw how certain people had to be present to authenticate that the baby is born from Kate's loins, and not baby swapping or other hanky-panky takes place. Validating such things has been a part of being royal for hundreds of years. It seems to me that Rhaego's birth needed to be verified somehow as well - by a Dothraki source - to make sure the baby is truly born of Dany and Drogo,

Just a few of my unanswered questions and speculations. You are very good at covering all your bases and a stickler for the text. You may have found more proof than I have!

[evita mgfs]

I think you are presenting some of your theory in Heresy thread, so I may get mixed up with where certain comments have been made. Anyway, what has always bothered me about Dany is that she did not demand to see Rhaego - she relies on Jorah to give her second-hand information - or hearsay.

As a mother, especially after enduring a difficult birth, I would want "evidence" of Rhaego's death - I'd want to hold my baby and say good-bye. We all know what Martin says about seeing the dead body - or the actual death - of a character?

Jorah has not always been on Dany's side, after all. By this time he is - but the entire mystery around Rhaego troubles me. For example, why isn't Rhaego's corpse burned with Drogo's?

Recently, Prince George was born, and we saw how certain people had to be present to authenticate that the baby is born from Kate's loins, and not baby swapping or other hanky-panky takes place. Validating such things has been a part of being royal for hundreds of years. It seems to me that Rhaego's birth needed to be verified somehow as well - by a Dothraki source - to make sure the baby is truly born of Dany and Drogo,

Just a few of my unanswered questions and speculations. You are very good at covering all your bases and a stickler for the text. You may have found more proof than I have!

[wolfmaid7]

I think you are presenting some of your theory in Heresy thread, so I may get mixed up with where certain comments have been maid. Anyway, what has always bothered me about Dany is that she did not demand to see Rhaego - she relies on Jorah to give her second-hand information - or hearsay.

As a mother, especially after enduring a difficult birth, I would want "evidence" of Rhaego's death - I'd want to hold my baby and say good-bye. We all know what Martin says about seeing the dead body - or the actual death - of a character?

Jorah has not always been on Dany's side, after all. By this time he is - but the entire mystery around Rhaego troubles me. For example, why isn't Rhaego's corpse burned with Drogo's?

Recently, Prince George was born, and we saw how certain people had to be present to authenticate that the baby is born from Kate's loins, and not baby swapping or other hanky-panky takes place. Validating such things has been a part of being royal for hundreds of years. It seems to me that Rhaego's birth needed to be verified somehow as well - by a Dothraki source - to make sure the baby is truly born of Dany and Drogo,

Just a few of my unanswered questions and speculations. You are very good at covering all your bases and a stickler for the text. You may have found more proof than I have!

I think you are presenting some of your theory in Heresy thread, so I may get mixed up with where certain comments have been maid. Anyway, what has always bothered me about Dany is that she did not demand to see Rhaego - she relies on Jorah to give her second-hand information - or hearsay.

As a mother, especially after enduring a difficult birth, I would want "evidence" of Rhaego's death - I'd want to hold my baby and say good-bye. We all know what Martin says about seeing the dead body - or the actual death - of a character?

Jorah has not always been on Dany's side, after all. By this time he is - but the entire mystery around Rhaego troubles me. For example, why isn't Rhaego's corpse burned with Drogo's?

Recently, Prince George was born, and we saw how certain people had to be present to authenticate that the baby is born from Kate's loins, and not baby swapping or other hanky-panky takes place. Validating such things has been a part of being royal for hundreds of years. It seems to me that Rhaego's birth needed to be verified somehow as well - by a Dothraki source - to make sure the baby is truly born of Dany and Drogo,

Just a few of my unanswered questions and speculations. You are very good at covering all your bases and a stickler for the text. You may have found more proof than I have!

I agree with you as well, after Dany wakes up she does not call for her son but she asks for her eggs rather frantically. It's like he wasn't even important.

It would have been nice to have the mystery behind Rheago's body resolved,but even though we don't see his body;i'm guessing he's dead(his body will come into play another way) or he's with the crones by now.

[evita mgfs]

WOLFMAID7: MORE HEADY STUFF - BY STONED DRAGON!

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/78181-the-old-gods-and-mirri-maz-duur/page-1

This is about blood magic being the source for the dragons' births - and the warg connection - lots of good stuff. You will LOVE it!

[wolfmaid7]

WOLFMAID7: MORE HEADY STUFF - BY STONED DRAGON!

I certainly found this interesting thank you for posting it

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/78181-the-old-gods-and-mirri-maz-duur/page-1

This is about blood magic being the source for the dragons' births - and the warg connection - lots of good stuff. You will LOVE it!

[Mistress of Lemon Cakes]

I think people are getting way too hung up on the word “warg.” What makes a warg a warg is that there is a mental link between the warg (Stark) and their wolf. What Wolfmaid is suggesting is that a similar mental link exists between Daenerys and Drogon. This is the Targaryen equivalent to “warging” that thanks to this thread I will hence forth be calling "dreking" in my head. :cool4: Someone used the term “Dreki” in an earlier page, which means “Dragon” just as “Warg” means “Wolf” in Old Norse.

The key here is not the word “Warg” … it’s the idea that both the Targaryens and the Starks possess a supernatural mental link to their respective familiars (Wolves for Starks and Dragons for Targaryens).

Fortunately it seems like this confusion has been mostly cleared up in large part thanks to Evita. :bowdown:

Anyway, here's my take on the whole thing ...

Daenerys feels a maternal bond with ALL of her dragons.

However, she shares a deeper bond with Drogon. Similar to the Starks that share a supernatural mental link with their wolves (that manifests in the form of warging), Targaryens have the ability to bond with a specific dragon (or vice versa, as the dragon chooses the rider). This is an ability that is exclusive to the Targaryens.

In this I definitely agree with Wolfmaid.

I will add that I think Daenerys is a step up from other Targaryen dragon riders in that she has this additional maternal bond with all three of the dragons in large part because she “hatched” them. She will never ride Rhaegal or Viserion, but they would never harm her and would probably protect her if they sensed she was in any kind of danger.

In short: Daenerys has a maternal bond with all three of her dragons; she has an even deeper bond with Drogon, which allows her to ride him. I don’t think this bond has been fully explored yet, but I think it will be in Winds.

[wolfmaid7]

I think people are getting way too hung up on the word “warg.” What makes a warg a warg is that there is a mental link between the warg (Stark) and their wolf. What Wolfmaid is suggesting is that a similar mental link exists between Daenerys and Drogon. This is the Targaryen equivalent to “warging” that thanks to this thread I will hence forth be calling "dreking" in my head. :cool4: Someone used the term “Dreki” in an earlier page, which means “Dragon” just as “Warg” means “Wolf” in Old Norse.

The key here is not the word “Warg” … it’s the idea that both the Targaryens and the Starks possess a supernatural mental link to their respective familiars (Wolves for Starks and Dragons for Targaryens).

Fortunately it seems like this confusion has been mostly cleared up in large part thanks to Evita. :bowdown:

Anyway, here's my take on the whole thing ...

Daenerys feels a maternal bond with ALL of her dragons.

However, she shares a deeper bond with Drogon. Similar to the Starks that share a supernatural mental link with their wolves (that manifests in the form of warging), Targaryens have the ability to bond with a specific dragon (or vice versa, as the dragon chooses the rider). This is an ability that is exclusive to the Targaryens.

In this I definitely agree with Wolfmaid.

I will add that I think Daenerys is a step up from other Targaryen dragon riders in that she has this additional maternal bond with all three of the dragons in large part because she “hatched” them. She will never ride Rhaegal or Viserion, but they would never harm her and would probably protect her if they sensed she was in any kind of danger.

In short: Daenerys has a maternal bond with all three of her dragons; she has an even deeper bond with Drogon, which allows her to ride him. I don’t think this bond has been fully explored yet, but I think it will be in Winds.

Dreki is such a cool name indeed.But yeah people got hung up on the name or it was blasphemy to even think there was a magical bond comparable to the Stark kids and their DWs.Well this theory knocked that out the park.The dragonbond is real so now what does that mean for the players in the game as it is.

I would compare Dany's relationship to Drogon to Jon's relationship with Ghost both these creatures seem different from their counterparts and i'll go as far as to say they are reps of two factions of two of the old races or they maybe representing magic itself.

I agree time Winds rolls around Dany's ability with regards to Drogon will be very advanced.The other two Dragons in the mix will be up for grabs if they aren't wild by now.

[Mistress of Lemon Cakes]

You handled it all really well. I was looking at all the time/date stamps and the fact that the debate over something you never even said went on for months was making my head hurt, so I can only imagine what it must have been like to have to try and deal with it in real time. :cool4:

But yeah, I think at this point that there is textual proof that the Targaryens were at least trying to bond their infants with dragons via the dragon eggs in their cribs. That's confirmed in The Princess and The Queen, right? I'm hoping to get my copy for Christmas. Just reading all the responses is very exciting.

[wolfmaid7]

You handled it all really well. I was looking at all the time/date stamps and the fact that the debate over something you never even said went on for months was making my head hurt, so I can only imagine what it must have been like to have to try and deal with it in real time. :cool4:

But yeah, I think at this point that there is textual proof that the Targaryens were at least trying to bond their infants with dragons via the dragon eggs in their cribs. That's confirmed in The Princess and The Queen, right? I'm hoping to get my copy for Christmas. Just reading all the responses is very exciting.

I was bad and went to Barnes and Nobles and started reading it and yeah it was very common for them to have eggs in their cribs and until they hatched.Some of the kiddies were walking around with the things all day. It was nice to see the different age groups with eggs,baby dragons,dragons to small to ride,almost ready to ride and full on badasses.

Not to mention they had a rockery under Dragonstone they had a lot of Dragons but they were short of riders.Hence looking for "Dragonseeds"(bastards)

[Oneorobertsbastards]

I would like to use my first ever post to say that this thread was completely exhausting. I've read the series twice, and came to the conclusion (obvious in my mind) that there is a link between Dany and her dragons, specifically Drogon. I searched the forum to see if anyone else had come to this conclusion and was astounded at the implacable mentality of those who refuse the theory based solely on the use of the word "warg". Is Dany a warg? No. Does she have some connection with Drogon that is comparable to that of a warg? Yes. There is no evidence of her ability to skinchange, but based on the imagery we see in her dreams (dreaming of smoke and fire, etc) I think she has a beast master type connection--seeing through Drogon's eyes via dreams and the like. I do believe when GRRM wrote that they "screamed as one" has deeper meaning. If we know anything about Martin, we know that he chooses each word carefully, considering future implications and knowing that the obsessed fan population will dissect each word unmercifully. The clencher in my mind is Maester Aemon's thoughts on the valyrian sphinx. It fits beautifully with this theory. Before I read this thread I completed my read of TPatQ, and maybe that was what solidified the idea in my mind before being presented with the sphinx idea in this thread.

Kudos for the patience displayed by Wolfmaid during the onslaught of denigrating posts made by those that didn't take the time to consider the theory in full before declaring it debunked based on the use of the word "warg".

And kudos to whoever first used the word "Twarg".

[wolfmaid7]

Thank you OORB,excuse the shorten version of your name.I haven't read TPATQ yet and i'm looking forward to the gems within.I got the sense from a lot of posters it was hard to accept because of a dislike of the character (Dany). I don't care for her either but dislike of a character shouldn't stop one form objectively analyzing what is going on.

I have no idea where GRRM is going with the Dragonbond,there are many roads to take with this,which makes it all the more interesting.

I give the Targs no props,for it is clear it is all about the Dragon's choice,i do believe it has to to do with the blood of Old Valyria and the strength of the potential rider to withstand "Dragonsong" that to me forms a true bond unlike the other Dragonlords that used sorcery and some other means to form a pseudobond.

[Beathag]

Yes, you can. Both warging - wolf specific trait - and skinchanging are exclusively First Men/COTF/old gods related, as is greenseeing. Greenseeers can control any beast. Dany has none of those traits because she shares the blood of none of these peoples. I would pose that the sorcery & horns of the Valeryians was to IMITATE the skinchanging gifts of the First Men, but they could not do it themselves.

Dany has a bond with the dragons, a maternalish one. But all children eventually leave home and become independent, just like Drogon did.

Well, this could be a mess.

Someone is going to wind the horn Victarion and "the Dusky Woman" (another poisoned gift of Euron) have hauled to the East. We know ithe person who blows has have the gift of "blood." I do not see it as a sacrifice, but that the person who blows must be of the right blood. Following that, I believe it must be Dany or a Targ/Blackfyre descendent who ends up blowing the horn -- anyone else will suffer mortal charring.

But if the greenseer (Blood Raven in my book of heresies) reaches out to control a dragon ridden/contolled by someone else, would that not drive the dragon mad?

On a different note -- if there is a dragon who is the personification/soul of MMD (I hope not, she would not be inclined to love Dany), then perhaps Blood Raven or Bran by that time, could "ride" the dragon. I do not think of the greenseers as "wargers." I believe they skin slip. Bran can warg into a wolf, but he slips into crows and trees. Of course, what he does with Hodor is, we have been told, an "abomination."

[DragonDreamer]

:bowdown:

This is awesome and I am in total agreement with the OP. Thank you for putting this together!

It's very well thought out and comprehensive. I would note one thing, when Dany had her first dragon dream in Dany 2 in AGOT it was BEFORE she got the dragon eggs. So, Drogon was reaching out to her from the very beginning. I think this is very important and signifies the magical bond between the two.

[wolfmaid7]

:bowdown:

This is awesome and I am in total agreement with the OP. Thank you for putting this together!

It's very well thought out and comprehensive. I would note one thing, when Dany had her first dragon dream in Dany 2 in AGOT it was BEFORE she got the dragon eggs. So, Drogon was reaching out to her from the very beginning. I think this is very important and signifies the magical bond between the two.

I agree with you that is important,and hopefully when i have the time i will do some more research into some of Dany's ancestors just before they came to Dragonstone and beyond.

[MoIaF]

I agree with you that is important,and hopefully when i have the time i will do some more research into some of Dany's ancestors just before they came to Dragonstone and beyond.

In the Dany re-read we talked about this. I did a breakdown of the dream and not only is it prophetic but it also seems to show us that Dany and Drogon might be one with each other.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/102021-daenerys-stormborn-a-re-read-project-agot/?p=5310680

[wolfmaid7]

In the Dany re-read we talked about this. I did a breakdown of the dream and not only is it prophetic but it also seems to show us that Dany and Drogon might be one with each other.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/102021-daenerys-stormborn-a-re-read-project-agot/?p=5310680

I enjoyed reading this a lot you drew some really good parallels in the re-read.I definitely believe without a doubt Dany's bond with Drogon is something very unique.

I also like the parallel to Bran that Evita revealed in that thread.

[MoIaF]

I enjoyed reading this a lot you drew some really good parallels in the re-read.I definitely believe without a doubt Dany's bond with Drogon is something very unique.

I also like the parallel to Bran that Evita revealed in that thread.

Thank you!

GRRM has been providing us with clues sense the very beginning and I don't understand the resistance to the idea. I sometimes believe that certain fans might feel that if Dany’s bond with Drogon is as special as the Stark bond with their direwolves, then that might take away from their favorite character.

As for the Bran comparison I completely agree. I mentioned in that threat as well that if you look at it the first chapter of AGOT is Bran’s and the last is Dany’s (they also have the middle two chapters) and I don’t believe that’s a coincidence. He is drawing a comparison between two of the most magical characters in the series (natural magic). I would really like to see a post comparing and contrasting these two characters.

By the way I wanted to say that I admire your very objective analysis. I saw up threat that you mentioned you’re not a fan of Dany’s and yet you still can analyze the character objectively. As a fan of Dany’s I truly respect that and it's refreshing to see.

You don’t know how many times I’ve seen people in the General Forum call Dany a red herring, GRRM spent a third of the books on her story, but she’s a red herring. This just because they don't like a character. To me this mentality takes away from the story. There are plenty of characters who are not my favorite yet I enjoy reading about them because they enrich the story. All characters are there for a reason.