Dany ,the Dragonlord,and the Dragonbond

[MaesterSam]

That is true, it could be serpentine but also the caverns of the COTF are huge, so the Dragon could be huge but more apt for low light.

Ah, and a dragon adapted to low light would probably hunt at night- conveniently making it much less likely to be seen and reported.

I think that is true also, but I also think there are so many unknowns in the North regarding, blood magic, (i.e., human sacrifice), and the current Starks are perhaps at a disadvantage due to their "southeronization," forgetting the old ways, which makes Brans role essential.

I've always viewed the Starks,(the olds ones at least), as being somewhat closer to nature, or the natural as in the traditions of both Native Americans and Druids,(especially the parallels to reincarnation and metamorphosis regarding their beliefs), so it would be interesting to know if they didn't have some interaction with the CotF, (i.e.,begetting Nettles), because I actually see the dragons as more creatures of the natural world and not to be enslaved or subjugated and perhaps the UNwillingness on the part of someone wanting to control them, but let them "be" is what "controls" them. :dunno:

Kind of like the direwolves, who have to be allowed to roam and hunt. The Starks let them do it.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Ah, and a dragon adapted to low light would probably hunt at night- conveniently making it much less likely to be seen and reported.

Kind of like the direwolves, who have to be allowed to roam and hunt. The Starks let them do it.

Yes and we see what happens when they let the direwolves roam free. Look at all the havoc and death Nymeria has caused with her wolf pack. IF the direwolves can roam free then the dragons should also be able to do what they want.

[wolfmaid7]

Yes and we see what happens when they let the direwolves roam free. Look at all the havoc and death Nymeria has caused with her wolf pack. IF the direwolves can roam free then the dragons should also be able to do what they want.

Yeah I'm thinking creatures such as these that form symbiotic bonds would be hell to deal with, without their proxies.

[MaesterSam]

Yes and we see what happens when they let the direwolves roam free. Look at all the havoc and death Nymeria has caused with her wolf pack. IF the direwolves can roam free then the dragons should also be able to do what they want.

From a moral standpoint, I agree completely. However, from the "humans in Westeros/Essos" standpoint, having free-roaming direwolves and dragons might be problematic... although there aren't any stories/legends about it being a problem in the distant past, so maybe if they were never exposed to people they would live in the wilderness and mind their own business?

Yeah I'm thinking creatures such as these that form symbiotic bonds would be hell to deal with, without their proxies.

In Nymeria's case, do you think the bond with Arya is what is causing her to be so... aggressive? As I mentioned above, it doesn't seem like there are any historical records of huge direwolf packs wreaking havoc in Westeros, even when there were still direwolves South of the Wall. So is it possible that normally (i.e. without a human bond), direwolves live in the forests and don't attack humans unless they are threatened or starving- much like other wolves. But, if bonded to a human who would condone such activities, the direwolf picks up some of his/her owner's personality/desires and acts accordingly? Aside from Nymeria and Grey Wind (who was helping Robb fight a war), the other direwolves don't appear to attack (living) humans unless there is a specific reason, ie they are a threat to their owners. They also don't seem to be trying to build super-packs like Nymeria is. It seems to me like she is somehow channeling Arya's killer instinct, for lack of a better word. They are both building their power, becoming expert killers in parallel...

[Alia of the knife]

From a moral standpoint, I agree completely. However, from the "humans in Westeros/Essos" standpoint, having free-roaming direwolves and dragons might be problematic... although there aren't any stories/legends about it being a problem in the distant past, so maybe if they were never exposed to people they would live in the wilderness and mind their own business?

In Nymeria's case, do you think the bond with Arya is what is causing her to be so... aggressive? As I mentioned above, it doesn't seem like there are any historical records of huge direwolf packs wreaking havoc in Westeros, even when there were still direwolves South of the Wall. So is it possible that normally (i.e. without a human bond), direwolves live in the forests and don't attack humans unless they are threatened or starving- much like other wolves. But, if bonded to a human who would condone such activities, the direwolf picks up some of his/her owner's personality/desires and acts accordingly? Aside from Nymeria and Grey Wind (who was helping Robb fight a war), the other direwolves don't appear to attack (living) humans unless there is a specific reason, ie they are a threat to their owners. They also don't seem to be trying to build super-packs like Nymeria is. It seems to me like she is somehow channeling Arya's killer instinct, for lack of a better word. They are both building their power, becoming expert killers in parallel...

I think the direwolves were "sent" for the Stark children, and definitely agree that there is a symbiotic bond, right down to emotional responses. I think the naming is also a foreshadowing and symbolic.

And sure, it is problematic for such animals to roam free just as it today. (A bear made off with a dumpster-THE WHOLE DAMN THING, at a German restaurant in Colorado last year. The owners caught it on a video they set up because they thought they were being pranked.).

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=bear+steals+dumpster+youtube&FORM=VIRE5#view=detail&mid=E3663D70F8C1D19065FFE3663D70F8C1D19065FF

:D

I was on vacation one year in North Carolina at the location where "Last of the Mohicans" was filmed, staying on the Indian reservation and I saw a wolf trying to get into a trashcan, but, even under "control," the dragons wreak havoc.

The point is, I think the way the dragons are kept in terms of the pits hints at something a little less than equal, and therefore less "voluntary" than the way the Starks bond with their direwolve where at least, the direwolf also has the benefit of becoming part of Man/Woman.

I speculate that its possible that that may be the way that a Stark ultimately "control" the dragons, even over the Targaryens. I don't know if the warging is in itself "magic," but more psychic, because ultimately magic does not allow for freedom or free will.

Nettles, if she was CotF, may have innately understood that, and that is what Sheep Stealer responded to.

(Of course I also understand the possibility that she may have been dragon seed as well. The other idea is just a thought, but I think Martin who chooses to live in New Mexico as opposed to a pent house in Central Park, or in LA, might be trying to say something about the natural world). :wub:

[wolfmaid7]

From a moral standpoint, I agree completely. However, from the "humans in Westeros/Essos" standpoint, having free-roaming direwolves and dragons might be problematic... although there aren't any stories/legends about it being a problem in the distant past, so maybe if they were never exposed to people they would live in the wilderness and mind their own business?

In Nymeria's case, do you think the bond with Arya is what is causing her to be so... aggressive? As I mentioned above, it doesn't seem like there are any historical records of huge direwolf packs wreaking havoc in Westeros, even when there were still direwolves South of the Wall. So is it possible that normally (i.e. without a human bond), direwolves live in the forests and don't attack humans unless they are threatened or starving- much like other wolves. But, if bonded to a human who would condone such activities, the direwolf picks up some of his/her owner's personality/desires and acts accordingly? Aside from Nymeria and Grey Wind (who was helping Robb fight a war), the other direwolves don't appear to attack (living) humans unless there is a specific reason, ie they are a threat to their owners. They also don't seem to be trying to build super-packs like Nymeria is. It seems to me like she is somehow channeling Arya's killer instinct, for lack of a better word. They are both building their power, becoming expert killers in parallel...

You bring up some very good points about the lack of attacks in Westeros,and i totally agree with you. The Direwolves like the crows ,Weirwood trees and the dragons have an ability to forge bonds with human proxies.It's beneficial for them because their animalistc behavior will become "humanized" based on the human they bond with. Over and over we have seen this theme reocurring,and i imagine in a society absent the wall we will have no such problems if man and nature live coheisivley.

The way Arya is now has a drastic affect of Nymeria,and even though Nymeria is is hunting everything possible in the Riverlands,she is different because of Arya.She is smart,stealthy,calculated and very strategic.Just the way Arya is.If Arya gets any better,Nymeria will be a Ghost.People will only hear of her but she is going to be a fracking force to be reckoned with.

I think the direwolves were "sent" for the Stark children, and definitely agree that there is a symbiotic bond, right down to emotional responses. I think the naming is also a foreshadowing and symbolic.

And sure, it is problematic for such animals to roam free just as it today. (A bear made off with a dumpster-THE WHOLE DAMN THING, at a German restaurant in Colorado last year. The owners caught it on a video they set up because they thought they were being pranked.).

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=bear+steals+dumpster+youtube&FORM=VIRE5#view=detail&mid=E3663D70F8C1D19065FFE3663D70F8C1D19065FF

:D

I was on vacation one year in North Carolina at the location where "Last of the Mohicans" was filmed, staying on the Indian reservation and I saw a wolf trying to get into a trashcan, but, even under "control," the dragons wreak havoc.

The point is, I think the way the dragons are kept in terms of the pits hints at something a little less than equal, and therefore less "voluntary" than the way the Starks bond with their direwolve where at least, the direwolf also has the benefit of becoming part of Man/Woman.

I speculate that its possible that that may be the way that a Stark ultimately "control" the dragons, even over the Targaryens. I don't know if the warging is in itself "magic," but more psychic, because ultimately magic does not allow for freedom or free will.

Nettles, if she was CotF, may have innately understood that, and that is what Sheep Stealer responded to.

(Of course I also understand the possibility that she may have been dragon seed as well. The other idea is just a thought, but I think Martin who chooses to live in New Mexico as opposed to a pent house in Central Park, or in LA, might be trying to say something about the natural world). :wub:

Even better,isn't it odd that the Stark match the Direwolves exactly,they are more than just magic.They are the Starks doubles.

As for the Dragons i parallel their bond with their riders to the Starks,the only difference is that very few Targs have been on equal footing with their Dragons. They exploited their bonds and used the Dragons as a tool of war.I think that is the secret they lost when they came to westeros.Dany i believe will be able to maximize that bond and allow Drogon to teach her,the way she allowed her Silver to teach her and that is the key.

In TPATQ their was one bastard of a Valerion lord i think his name was Lucius Valerion.I will find the quote but when the queen was forcing the Dragons to choose riders,this kid didn't he walked to this Dragon they looked at eachother and instantly he folded his wings and went his belly before the kid.They Legitimized him on the spot and he flew without whip like the others. I'm theorizing Dany on Drogon will be flawless.

As to the other Dragons,i'm expecting one to get taken by a horn and the other one to choose a rider.I'm also theorizing that the closer he gets to his rider,his rider is going to start getting some pretty interesting dreams.

[Alia of the knife]

You bring up some very good points about the lack of attacks in Westeros,and i totally agree with you. The Direwolves like the crows ,Weirwood trees and the dragons have an ability to forge bonds with human proxies.It's beneficial for them because their animalistc behavior will become "humanized" based on the human they bond with. Over and over we have seen this theme reocurring,and i imagine in a society absent the wall we will have no such problems if man and nature live coheisivley.

The way Arya is now has a drastic affect of Nymeria,and even though Nymeria is is hunting everything possible in the Riverlands,she is different because of Arya.She is smart,stealthy,calculated and very strategic.Just the way Arya is.If Arya gets any better,Nymeria will be a Ghost.People will only hear of her but she is going to be a fracking force to be reckoned with.

Even better,isn't it odd that the Stark match the Direwolves exactly,they are more than just magic.They are the Starks doubles.

As for the Dragons i parallel their bond with their riders to the Starks,the only difference is that very few Targs have been on equal footing with their Dragons. They exploited their bonds and used the Dragons as a tool of war.I think that is the secret they lost when they came to westeros.Dany i believe will be able to maximize that bond and allow Drogon to teach her,the way she allowed her Silver to teach her and that is the key.

In TPATQ their was one bastard of a Valerion lord i think his name was Lucius Valerion.I will find the quote but when the queen was forcing the Dragons to choose riders,this kid didn't he walked to this Dragon they looked at eachother and instantly he folded his wings and went his belly before the kid.They Legitimized him on the spot and he flew without whip like the others. I'm theorizing Dany on Drogon will be flawless.

As to the other Dragons,i'm expecting one to get taken by a horn and the other one to choose a rider.I'm also theorizing that the closer he gets to his rider,his rider is going to start getting some pretty interesting dreams.

Agree with everything you said, and while it sounds a little simplistic to say the dragons are ultimately "controlled" by "love" I certainaly think that could be an element, but more so the idea that it is respected for what it is, and in its own choosing of its bond, its pwers are harnessed.

[wolfmaid7]

Agree with everything you said, and while it sounds a little simplistic to say the dragons are ultimately "controlled" by "love" I certainaly think that could be an element, but more so the idea that it is respected for what it is, and in its own choosing of its bond, its pwers are harnessed.

As I noted in my OP Dany's first flight with Drogon was pretty orgasmic, more like lovers I can see another reason why and how they could change sex. If you see where I'm coming from.

[Frey family reunion]

As I noted in my OP Dany's first flight with Drogon was pretty orgasmic, more like lovers I can see another reason why and how they could change sex. If you see where I'm coming from.

Which makes me think that the Dragon's awakening were accomplished using the animus from Drogo and Rhaego, Drogo into Drogon and Rhaego into Viserion. Both are now living their "second lives" in the dragons and subconcisouly influencing the dragons' actions and relations with others.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Which makes me think that the Dragon's awakening were accomplished using the animus from Drogo and Rhaego, Drogo into Drogon and Rhaego into Viserion. Both are now living their "second lives" in the dragons and subconcisouly influencing the dragons' actions and relations with others.

And MMD is Rhaegal?

[Frey family reunion]

And MMD is Rhaegal?

Don't know. We're really not given very much insight into Rhaegal's disposition. Even though he (she?) is the one that toasted Quentyn. She also seemed a little bity with Dany but that's about it. It's possible that Rhaegal may have been awakened with just the animus from Drogo's horse or the horse used at the funeral pyre, and thus may be a decent canidate to be controlled by the dragon horn (no additional consciousness that the horn would have to sublimate).

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Don't know. We're really not given very much insight into Rhaegal's disposition. Even though he (she?) is the one that toasted Quentyn. She also seemed a little bity with Dany but that's about it. It's possible that Rhaegal may have been awakened with just the animus from Drogo's horse or the horse used at the funeral pyre, and thus may be a decent canidate to be controlled by the dragon horn (no additional consciousness that the horn would have to sublimate).

Wow that's a very interesting point :) I never thought about one of the drgaons being more susceptible than the others :)

[wolfmaid7]

I'm not sure about the horse animus being in one of the Dragons FFR.It may be a good canidate for Drogo's state in that respect it did work.Drogo's horse bought him what ever life he had.However i think the essences of Drogo,MMD and Rheago facilitated the Dragons.GRRM has been mostly true to Dragonlore thus far so given that the Dragons are Juviniles they are ready to choose and will become increasingly harder to deal with until they choose their riders.Or gets hog-tied by a horn.

She got Drogon but the other two the more they remained un-bonded the wilder and more dangerous they will become.

[Frey family reunion]

I'm not sure about the horse animus being in one of the Dragons FFR.It may be a good canidate for Drogo's state in that respect it did work.Drogo's horse bought him what ever life he had.However i think the essences of Drogo,MMD and Rheago facilitated the Dragons.GRRM has been mostly true to Dragonlore thus far so given that the Dragons are Juviniles they are ready to choose and will become increasingly harder to deal with until they choose their riders.Or gets hog-tied by a horn.

She got Drogon but the other two the more they remained un-bonded the wilder and more dangerous they will become.

It's possible but like I think it's just as likely that in addition to Drogo, Rhaego (and possibly MMD) that the animus of the two horses also likely went into the two dragons.

My guess is during the initial blood ritual, Drogo's animus went into one of the eggs (likely Drogons') and his horse's animus went into him (which kind of explains his less than articulate nature after the ritual). If you recall that was the point of the entire blood ritual in the first place, MMD was putting the life force of the horse into Drago. In the meantime, Rhaego's animus went into the other egg.

Then during the funeral pyre, Drogo's horse captured inside of Drogo would have been released and may have gone into one of the other eggs (I like to think it went into Drogon). Thus we have Drogon who will have a greater capacity to be ridden, and a greater capacity to bond with Dany (in a husband wife sort of way, emotionally anyway). Then another horse was sacrificed as well at the pyre.

If MMD's animus wasnt' put into one of the eggs, and I'll get to that in a second, then the second horse that was killed at the funeral pyre may have been the animus that hatched the third egg (Rhaegal's the one without Rhaego).

Thus we'd have Viserion with the animus of Rhaego, Rhaegal with perhaps just the animus of the second horse (which would make it a likely canidate to be taken over by the dragon horn) and Drogon with both the animus of Drogo and his horse.

I am unsure about MMD because as opposed to being a sacrifice like Drogo and Rhaego who were powerless participants through the rituals, she had more of a chance to affect and steer the rituals. Remember she appeared to be casting spells all the way up to the time of her death, so it may be that she wasn't a sacrifice used to imbue the egg.

[MaesterSam]

I think the direwolves were "sent" for the Stark children, and definitely agree that there is a symbiotic bond, right down to emotional responses. I think the naming is also a foreshadowing and symbolic.

And sure, it is problematic for such animals to roam free just as it today. (A bear made off with a dumpster-THE WHOLE DAMN THING, at a German restaurant in Colorado last year. The owners caught it on a video they set up because they thought they were being pranked.).

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=bear+steals+dumpster+youtube&FORM=VIRE5#view=detail&mid=E3663D70F8C1D19065FFE3663D70F8C1D19065FF

:D

I was on vacation one year in North Carolina at the location where "Last of the Mohicans" was filmed, staying on the Indian reservation and I saw a wolf trying to get into a trashcan, but, even under "control," the dragons wreak havoc.

The point is, I think the way the dragons are kept in terms of the pits hints at something a little less than equal, and therefore less "voluntary" than the way the Starks bond with their direwolve where at least, the direwolf also has the benefit of becoming part of Man/Woman.

I speculate that its possible that that may be the way that a Stark ultimately "control" the dragons, even over the Targaryens. I don't know if the warging is in itself "magic," but more psychic, because ultimately magic does not allow for freedom or free will.

Nettles, if she was CotF, may have innately understood that, and that is what Sheep Stealer responded to.

(Of course I also understand the possibility that she may have been dragon seed as well. The other idea is just a thought, but I think Martin who chooses to live in New Mexico as opposed to a pent house in Central Park, or in LA, might be trying to say something about the natural world). :wub:

Well, the equivalent of the pits would have been to keep the direwolves in a kennel or on a chain. Presumably, had they made it to King's Landing, that's how Lady and Nymeria would have been raised. Summer and Shaggydog were confined to the godswood for some time after Shaggydog bit one of the Freys. I think some degree of confinement is hard to avoid when you have animals that can be a real danger to those around you. It may have just been the circumstances that resulted in the Stark wolves living a pretty 'free' life, b/c their owners were scattered to the wind and preoccupied with their lives falling apart so they let the wolves roam.

I do think it would be best for wolves and dragons to live free. Dragons have stunted growth when confined, if that's not an indicator that it's bad for them I don't know what is. I think it may be dangerous to keep these types of animals locked up too much.... they just aren't meant to live in the midst of civilization.

You bring up some very good points about the lack of attacks in Westeros,and i totally agree with you. The Direwolves like the crows ,Weirwood trees and the dragons have an ability to forge bonds with human proxies.It's beneficial for them because their animalistc behavior will become "humanized" based on the human they bond with. Over and over we have seen this theme reocurring,and i imagine in a society absent the wall we will have no such problems if man and nature live coheisivley.

The way Arya is now has a drastic affect of Nymeria,and even though Nymeria is is hunting everything possible in the Riverlands,she is different because of Arya.She is smart,stealthy,calculated and very strategic.Just the way Arya is.If Arya gets any better,Nymeria will be a Ghost.People will only hear of her but she is going to be a fracking force to be reckoned with.

Even better,isn't it odd that the Stark match the Direwolves exactly,they are more than just magic.They are the Starks doubles.

As for the Dragons i parallel their bond with their riders to the Starks,the only difference is that very few Targs have been on equal footing with their Dragons. They exploited their bonds and used the Dragons as a tool of war.I think that is the secret they lost when they came to westeros.Dany i believe will be able to maximize that bond and allow Drogon to teach her,the way she allowed her Silver to teach her and that is the key.

In TPATQ their was one bastard of a Valerion lord i think his name was Lucius Valerion.I will find the quote but when the queen was forcing the Dragons to choose riders,this kid didn't he walked to this Dragon they looked at eachother and instantly he folded his wings and went his belly before the kid.They Legitimized him on the spot and he flew without whip like the others. I'm theorizing Dany on Drogon will be flawless.

As to the other Dragons,i'm expecting one to get taken by a horn and the other one to choose a rider.I'm also theorizing that the closer he gets to his rider,his rider is going to start getting some pretty interesting dreams.

Yes, this is exactly what I meant! The bond goes both ways, and each picks up something from the other. So then the more Arya learns, the more deadly Nymeria becomes too... as if those two could get any more awesome. Can't wait for that reunion! :drool:

I worry Dany may be seeing the dragons mainly as tools of war too. But maybe, with a true bond chosen by the dragon (as opposed to being forced on it by a horn), since their personalities merge in a way, this would make the dragon want to fight along with his fierce rider. Kind of like Grey Wind was helping Robb in war; nobody saw that as exploitation, as it was implied Grey Wind chose to accompany Robb and carry out helpful activities. Summer also has voluntarily risked himself for Bran on more than one occasion. Dominating a dragon with a horn and forcing it to fight would be a different story. Closer to what Varamyr was doing, IMO.

Yes I can't WAIT for someone to start having dragon dreams! Of course it would give it away pretty much immediately, so I expect GRRM will hold that info back as long as he possibly can.

[Alia of the knife]

Well, the equivalent of the pits would have been to keep the direwolves in a kennel or on a chain. Presumably, had they made it to King's Landing, that's how Lady and Nymeria would have been raised. Summer and Shaggydog were confined to the godswood for some time after Shaggydog bit one of the Freys. I think some degree of confinement is hard to avoid when you have animals that can be a real danger to those around you. It may have just been the circumstances that resulted in the Stark wolves living a pretty 'free' life, b/c their owners were scattered to the wind and preoccupied with their lives falling apart so they let the wolves roam.

I do think it would be best for wolves and dragons to live free. Dragons have stunted growth when confined, if that's not an indicator that it's bad for them I don't know what is. I think it may be dangerous to keep these types of animals locked up too much.... they just aren't meant to live in the midst of civilization.

Yes, this is exactly what I meant! The bond goes both ways, and each picks up something from the other. So then the more Arya learns, the more deadly Nymeria becomes too... as if those two could get any more awesome. Can't wait for that reunion! :drool:

I worry Dany may be seeing the dragons mainly as tools of war too. But maybe, with a true bond chosen by the dragon (as opposed to being forced on it by a horn), since their personalities merge in a way, this would make the dragon want to fight along with his fierce rider. Kind of like Grey Wind was helping Robb in war; nobody saw that as exploitation, as it was implied Grey Wind chose to accompany Robb and carry out helpful activities. Summer also has voluntarily risked himself for Bran on more than one occasion. Dominating a dragon with a horn and forcing it to fight would be a different story. Closer to what Varamyr was doing, IMO.

Yes I can't WAIT for someone to start having dragon dreams! Of course it would give it away pretty much immediately, so I expect GRRM will hold that info back as long as he possibly can.

I would have bitten one of the Freys, :devil: and you can bet that if Arya had had to marry one of them, he wouldn't have made it through the night :laugh: . But, I do think that the symbiotic bond, where they are almost one has a lot to do with respect, and the realization that free creatures are what they are.

Many ranchers have to hunt and kill the wolves that feed on their livestock, but many of them don't like doing it, and in some places they have worked with conservationists to find a happy medium.

But, I can't help but think the pits are abusive and may have had an affect on their temperament and mentality. I also think different from the Starks with their direwolves, the dragons were exploited for power.

It would be interesting to see the relationship between a Stark and a dragon. :drool:

I'm not sure about the horse animus being in one of the Dragons FFR.It may be a good canidate for Drogo's state in that respect it did work.Drogo's horse bought him what ever life he had.However i think the essences of Drogo,MMD and Rheago facilitated the Dragons.GRRM has been mostly true to Dragonlore thus far so given that the Dragons are Juviniles they are ready to choose and will become increasingly harder to deal with until they choose their riders.Or gets hog-tied by a horn.

She got Drogon but the other two the more they remained un-bonded the wilder and more dangerous they will become.

As I noted in my OP Dany's first flight with Drogon was pretty orgasmic, more like lovers I can see another reason why and how they could change sex. If you see where I'm coming from.

Which is why I think the elements of equality, even love are an important aspect of the bond.

But, I do think it was interesting that Tyrion noted that even a dragon could be controlled, but never a wolf.

[wolfmaid7]

Well, the equivalent of the pits would have been to keep the direwolves in a kennel or on a chain. Presumably, had they made it to King's Landing, that's how Lady and Nymeria would have been raised. Summer and Shaggydog were confined to the godswood for some time after Shaggydog bit one of the Freys. I think some degree of confinement is hard to avoid when you have animals that can be a real danger to those around you. It may have just been the circumstances that resulted in the Stark wolves living a pretty 'free' life, b/c their owners were scattered to the wind and preoccupied with their lives falling apart so they let the wolves roam.

I do think it would be best for wolves and dragons to live free. Dragons have stunted growth when confined, if that's not an indicator that it's bad for them I don't know what is. I think it may be dangerous to keep these types of animals locked up too much.... they just aren't meant to live in the midst of civilization.

Yes, this is exactly what I meant! The bond goes both ways, and each picks up something from the other. So then the more Arya learns, the more deadly Nymeria becomes too... as if those two could get any more awesome. Can't wait for that reunion! :drool:

I worry Dany may be seeing the dragons mainly as tools of war too. But maybe, with a true bond chosen by the dragon (as opposed to being forced on it by a horn), since their personalities merge in a way, this would make the dragon want to fight along with his fierce rider. Kind of like Grey Wind was helping Robb in war; nobody saw that as exploitation, as it was implied Grey Wind chose to accompany Robb and carry out helpful activities. Summer also has voluntarily risked himself for Bran on more than one occasion. Dominating a dragon with a horn and forcing it to fight would be a different story. Closer to what Varamyr was doing, IMO.

Yes I can't WAIT for someone to start having dragon dreams! Of course it would give it away pretty much immediately, so I expect GRRM will hold that info back as long as he possibly can.

Yeah i think GRRM has done a great job defining and giving examples of forcing nature to bend vs bending with nature and the issue of the horn and the fact that Dany is playing the Game of Thrones could have intended consequences and she is playing that game. This is why i'm hoping Quaite is an ally,she did chastize Dany for abandoning the Dragons basically so i hope that she is able to steer Dany in the right direction.Tyrion is poised to give her a bit of direction but i doubt his motives.I think GRRM could be subtle with his Dragon dreams or should i say a Dragon summons and he's got two books stil yet to be release with a lot of ground to cover. Even if a person never actually gets a Dragon having the dreams could be telling enough.

I would have bitten one of the Freys, :devil: and you can bet that if Arya had had to marry one of them, he wouldn't have made it through the night :laugh: . But, I do think that the symbiotic bond, where they are almost one has a lot to do with respect, and the realization that free creatures are what they are.

Many ranchers have to hunt and kill the wolves that feed on their livestock, but many of them don't like doing it, and in some places they have worked with conservationists to find a happy medium.

But, I can't help but think the pits are abusive and may have had an affect on their temperament and mentality. I also think different from the Starks, the dragons were exploited for power.

It would be interesting to see the relationship between a Stark and a dragon. :drool:

Which is why I think the elements of equality, even love are an important aspect of the bond.

But, I do think it was interesting that Tyrion noted that even a dragon could be controlled, but never a wolf.

I doubt they would be friends,but i am ever reminded of Maester Cressens prologue that visual of him(a man) standing between a "hellhound"(Direwolf) and a "Wyvern"(Dragon) was very telling to me and it has to do with these creatures as guides and guardians to the magical world.I haven't quite fleshed out that meaning but i'm working on it.

[Alia of the knife]

Yeah i think GRRM has done a great job defining and giving examples of forcing nature to bend vs bending with nature and the issue of the horn and the fact that Dany is playing the Game of Thrones could have intended consequences and she is playing that game. This is why i'm hoping Quaite is an ally,she did chastize Dany for abandoning the Dragons basically so i hope that she is able to steer Dany in the right direction.Tyrion is poised to give her a bit of direction but i doubt his motives.I think GRRM could be subtle with his Dragon dreams or should i say a Dragon summons and he's got two books stil yet to be release with a lot of ground to cover. Even if a person never actually gets a Dragon having the dreams could be telling enough.

I doubt they would be friends,but i am ever reminded of Maester Cressens prologue that visual of him(a man) standing between a "hellhound"(Direwolf) and a "Wyvern"(Dragon) was very telling to me and it has to do with these creatures as guides and guardians to the magical world.I haven't quite fleshed out that meaning but i'm working on it.

:drool: I can't wait.

It's interesting all the same elements here, crows, wolves, dragons, and stags, as well as trees are common denominators in Norse mythology. The Yggdrasil, or world tree and the idea that man was made from tree trunks and that these mythical beings lived within the tree.

But, there is also the Stark/ Native American symbology with the "skin walkers," that even today, it is forbidden to mention such beings, as well as the animal sigils which act more like Totems, or spirit symbols.

I've always imagined the Starks to be slightly closer to the natural world with their gods, and in this way, a little like a cross between Native American traditions, and the Saxons.

"Saxons" in the midst of the Normans when the Normans who had been Vikings had lost contact with their roots, somewhat like the Targaryens.

[OnlyOne]

Old Volantis is waiting for Dany... Just saying.

[wolfmaid7]

:drool: I can't wait.

It's interesting all the same elements here, crows, wolves, dragons, and stags, as well as trees are common denominators in Norse mythology. The Yggdrasil, or world tree and the idea that man was made from tree trunks and that these mythical beings lived within the tree.

But, there is also the Stark/ Native American symbology with the "skin walkers," that even today, it is forbidden to mention such beings, as well as the animal sigils which act more like Totems, or spirit symbols.

I've always imagined the Starks to be slightly closer to the natural world with their gods, and in this way, a little like a cross between Native American traditions, and the Saxons.

"Saxons" in the midst of the Normans when the Normans who had been Vikings had lost contact with their roots, somewhat like the Targaryens.

The idea of the "World tree" is exactly what i think is the foundation of the world North of the Wall.Very strong Native American parallel also,it will be nice to see how this theme is concluded.