Who deserves the Iron Throne the most

[Lord Illidan Stormrage]

I disagree, Stannis is just the man the realm needs right now. Winter is here and they need a strong man to bring them forward. A man who wont respond to flattery or nonsense. A man who will focus on feeding the smallfolk with his iron bank money Stannis can do just this. A King who will give justice to everyone.

If Tywin was alive i would have rooted for him. One thing struck me that Jaime though. When he saw that it will be winter soon he thought "how his father will feed everyone". While thinking that he did not wonder "if" but "how" - Tywin Lannister will not fail no matter what - that's the ruler Westeros needs in a crisis.

[Chaircat Meow]

Where does it say in ADwD that half the castle supported Marsh?

It doesn't. Notice that Jon had to get stabbed during a big distraction by three (four?) dudes instead of getting mobbed out in public by dozens of men.

DwD, hardback, p. 221

[Dicer]

DwD, hardback, p. 221

Could you give us the quote?

[Chaircat Meow]

No. You would close our gates forever and seal them up with stone and ice. Half of Castle Black agreed with the Lord Steward's views, he knew. The other half heaped scorn on them ... Most rangers echoed Dywen, [who thinks Bowen's plan is bad] whilst the builders and stewards inclined towards Bowen Marsh.

[Dicer]

I think that means that half of Castle Black agreed with sealing the gates. Not that they support Marsh in whatever he does. Jon was specifically talking about the idea to seal the gates. The stewards and the builders wanted to seal them off, the rangers wanted to go on patrol.

This says nothing about how the NW feel about everything else including a plan to assassinate their commanding officer.

[Chaircat Meow]

I think that means that half of Castle Black agreed with sealing the gates. Not that they support Marsh in whatever he does. Jon was specifically talking about the idea to seal the gates. The stewards and the builders wanted to seal them off, the rangers wanted to go on patrol.

This says nothing about how the NW feel about everything else including a plan to assassinate their commanding officer.

The author never gives us a poll of watch opinion after the 'seal the gate' plan is debated at CB when half of the castle supports Marsh.

The quote supports what I said and what you responded to. What is your problem with this?

[Dicer]

The quote supports what I said and what you responded to.

Yes, but I don't understand why you brought that up? The Stewards and builders supported Marsh's decision to seal the gates. So?

[Chaircat Meow]

Yes, but I don't understand why you brought that up?

It was being claimed Jon's officers and men agreed with him saving a few malcontents.

I pointed out there is no evidence as to what the nw thinks about Jon's policies as a whole at all after Jon informs us half of CB agrees with Marsh over the gate business.

[Nomad/]

Stannis derserves it the most, he is the King, that is law. Besides the Targaryen are all incest bastards. They marry their sisters and cousins. They are all mad. Maybe if Dany or Aegon break these tradition, one of them can have the throne.

Jon, is going to be a new Nightsking, or King in the North, never of the 7 Kingdoms united. He is a Northmen, there is no doubt, even if he has Targ blood. There is no way that he becomes King

[Dicer]

It was being claimed Jon's officers and men agreed with him saving a few malcontents.

I pointed out there is no evidence as to what the nw thinks about Jon's policies as a whole at all after Jon informs us half of CB agrees with Marsh over the gate business.

Yes, but I think that what Lady m was saying was that it did not matter what the rest of the watch thought of Jon's policies. They followed his orders since he was the head of their military organization.

Anyways I think I am complicating all this unnecessarily and going off topic. Apologies.

I do think that both Jon and Dany are good candidates from among the younger generation for the Iron Throne if it still exists. They are both making mistakes and learning on the job and getting good work experience and that's important. They both faced tough choices and made hard decisions. It's not easy for a 15-16 year old girl to rule and going up against powerful societies. Similarly for Jon it's not easy to command an organization made of thieves, rapists and murderers and brothers too set in their ways to change for the better.

I get the feeling that by the end of the book most of the older generation are going to die (Excluding Tyrion) and the kids are going to take over.

[Jon Mark Selmy]

Jon, is going to be a new Nightsking, or King in the North, never of the 7 Kingdoms united. He is a Northmen, there is no doubt, even if he has Targ blood. There is no way that he becomes King

Your so biting your tongue at the end of the series... Not that I like this ending, but it will probably happen.

[Chaircat Meow]

Yes, but I think that what Lady m was saying was that it did not matter what the rest of the watch thought of Jon's policies. They followed his orders since he was the head of their military organization.

Anyways I think I am complicating all this unnecessarily and going off topic. Apologies.

They all followed his orders, as I pointed out.

Right up until they stabbed him when he violated their sworn duty. It clearly ended up mattering what people who were following orders thought of Jon's actions in his last chapter.

You cannot use their acquiescence in his prior commands as evidence for how the watch feels about Jon's shieldhall speech, or his other prior policies, or how Cotter and Ser Denys would react to it.

[Dicer]

Right up until they stabbed him when he violated their sworn duty. You cannot use their acquiescence in his prior commands as evidence for how the watch feels about Jon's shieldhall speech or how Cotter and Ser Denys would react to it.

But if the rest of the Watch felt that way about Jon, why all the secrecy and sudden assassination attempts? Why not open revolt? If we are going to assume all the brothers including Pyke and Mallister would feel the same way as Marsh did, could he not have legally removed Jon from his position of power? Just disarm him and take over command of the NW. The very fact that Marsh stabbed Jon the way he did points to him and his group being in the minority.

[Chaircat Meow]

But if the rest of the Watch felt that way about Jon, why all the secrecy and sudden assassination attempts? Why not open revolt? If we are going to assume all the brothers including Pyke and Mallister would feel the same way as Marsh did, could he not have legally removed Jon from his position of power? Just disarm him and take over command of the NW. The very fact that Marsh stabbed Jon the way he did points to him and his group being in the minority.

Huh. Cos he didn't do anything that justified removing him until the last chapter. As you say you have to take your orders (unless the commander totally goes out to lunch).

There was no sudden secrecy. They stabbed in the middle of CB having just left his shieldhall gathering. They had no time to gather supporters or even tell people what Jon did in the shieldhall.

[Chaircat Meow]

Anyway, this is OTT. Lets save it for a Jon thread.

[Dicer]

Huh. Cos he didn't do anything that justified removing him until the last chapter. As you say you have to take your orders (unless the commander totally goes out to lunch).

There was no sudden secrecy. They stabbed in the middle of CB having just left his shieldhall gathering.

But I am asking why stab him at all? Even if Jon made his decision in the last chapter, he is not just going to immediately run away with his wildling horde. He needs to settle matters at CB and make sure there is someone in charge and a line of command. If what you are saying is true and all the brothers at the NW would have opposed Jon's decision to go to WF, then could not Marsh have take over command legally? Depose Jon. Disarm him and place him under arrest because he is an oathbreaker and then lawfully take over as Lord commander.

If Marsh is in the right and he has the support, then why the Caesar style assassination?

Anyway, this is OTT. Lets save it for a Jon thread.

Yes.

[jons nissa]

Stannis derserves it the most, he is the King, that is law. Besides the Targaryen are all incest bastards. They marry their sisters and cousins. They are all mad. Maybe if Dany or Aegon break these tradition, one of them can have the throne.

i saw the following quoted in another part of the forum and while it was discussing show stannis, the argument is very relevant to this argument about book stannis. since it was an observation by the unsullied, all i could think of was ned saying "Out of the mouth of babes":

Quote

On the subject of Stannis, it's interesting that he thinks he has a claim to the throne, yet he is engaging in the same behavior (burning people alive) that was used as justification for Robert to take the throne through rebellion. If burning people alive makes someone unfit to be kind, then Stannis is just as unfit. If it doesn't, then Dany should still be the rightful heir.

[Ser Ennepe]

I want to see which out of nine houses despite claims to Iron Throne fans want on the throne.

I want the Realm divided into smaller Kingdoms again. So I want to see someone melting down this cursed throne. Therefore all Hail Jon Stark, King in the North, all hail King Harry Arryn of the Vale etc. etc.

[W.Kane]

i saw the following quoted in another part of the forum and while it was discussing show stannis, the argument is very relevant to this argument about book stannis. since it was an observation by the unsullied, all i could think of was ned saying "Out of the mouth of babes":

Quote

On the subject of Stannis, it's interesting that he thinks he has a claim to the throne, yet he is engaging in the same behavior (burning people alive) that was used as justification for Robert to take the throne through rebellion. If burning people alive makes someone unfit to be kind, then Stannis is just as unfit. If it doesn't, then Dany should still be the rightful heir.

LOL . seriously have you ever read the books? I'm serious .

was it the burning that started the rebellion ?

or it started because Rhaegar , kidnappted Lyanna and Aerys killed Brandon and Rickard and their companions unjustly and wanted to kill Robert and Ned? :dunno:

all those who have burnt by Stannis were either traitors or criminals. they deserved to die according to the law.

how can you even compare Aerys with Stannis?!!

Ok, we know you hate Stannis , you don't need to act like this , we know that.

[jons nissa]

LOL . seriously have you ever read the books? I'm serious .

was it the burning that started the rebellion ?

or it started because Rhaegar , kidnappted Lyanna and Aerys killed Brandon and Rickard and their companions and wanted to kill Robert and Ned? :dunno:

all those who have burnt by Stannis were either traitors or criminals. they deserved to die according to the law.

how can you even compare Aerys with Stannis?!!

Ok, we know you hate Stannis , you don't need to act like this , we know that.

yes, i've read the books and no, i don't hate stannis. i merely posted a quote about him. the quote talks about justification for robert's actions. that's hardly the same as what started the rebellion. how do you arrive at that? cause is very different from excuse.

anyway, i acknowledge that this quote is quite a simplification of a bigger situation. as my posts states, this is the image that others have of stannis. sorry that you weren't able to get that from what's written here.