lady m Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 That's an apt point. I disagree with the post you responded to though. I think as far as ruling a kingdom goes, Dany or Stannis would be great at it. Jon not so much, because he is too inexperienced, although he did have noble ideas as the LC, they just weren't the 'right' ideas for the NW.Dany's already been awful at ruling a small city state. She did so badly she accepted marrying someone from the exact class of slavers from which she initially had 163 crucified. She's even gone from abolitionist to slaver by way of taxing a reopened slavetrade, which she had to sanction. What indicates she's going to do any better on a larger scale? Normally when a person fails on a small scale they fail even more on a larger one. As for Jon not having the right ideas for the Watch, he didn't have the right ideas for Bowen Marsh and his small cabal of assassins. There were no indications of personnel problems at the newly reopened castles, Cotter Pyke, who got more votes for LC than Marsh has taken to Jon's plans, as it seems did Ser Denys at Shadow Tower, and the ranger core all supported Jon. It would seem that a larger percentage of the old guard of the NW supported Jon than did the noble class of Meereen that supported Dany.Both Jon and Stannis would be far more capable rulers than Dany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 No indication of what Pyke, Mallister or the rangers think. They take their orders like Marsh and Yarwyck. Dany proved she knew how to consolidate her gains and win support by marrying Hizdahr, a necessary compromise Jon Snow is not liable to be capable of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady m Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 No indication of what Pyke, Mallister or the rangers think. They take their orders like Marsh and Yarwyck. Dany proved she knew how to consolidate her gains and win support by marrying Hizdahr, a necessary compromise Jon Snow is not liable to be capable of.Yes, they take orders, and follow them. Just like Marsh refuses to do, and Yarwyck balks at. In other words, they do exactly what they're supposed to do. Which means other than Marsh and his cabal the system worked. That's how a military organization is supposed to work.Dany married Hizdahr because she could not figure out how to get anyone to do anything she wanted them to do. Hizdahr went from an enemy, and someone she mocked, to someone whose support she had to acquiesce to so her rule in Meereen didn't completely implode. She marries him even though she strongly, though likely wrongly, suspects him of being the Harpy. In other words, she's blackmailed into it. Which is not a show of strength, it's a huge sign of just how weak a ruler she turned out to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 Yes, they take orders, and follow them. Just like Marsh refuses to do, and Yarwyck balks at. In other words, they do exactly what they're supposed to do. Which means other than Marsh and his cabal the system worked. That's how a military organization is supposed to work.Marsh and co do not refuse orders. They do as they are told. When they are asked for counsel they grumble (and are unhelpful) as do Mallister and Pyke in their letters when they are given wildlings to man their castles. The author never gives us a poll of watch opinion after the 'seal the gate' plan is debated at CB when half of the castle supports Marsh. Dany married Hizdahr because she could not figure out how to get anyone to do anything she wanted them to do. Hizdahr went from an enemy, and someone she mocked, to someone whose support she had to acquiesce to so her rule in Meereen didn't completely implode. She marries him even though she strongly, though likely wrongly, suspects him of being the Harpy. In other words, she's blackmailed into it. Which is not a show of strength, it's a huge sign of just how weak a ruler she turned out to be.Yea, she didn't want to Tywin Lannister the whole ruling class so she tried to win support by marrying into it. Why do you have such a problem with this. It is the eminently responsible thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Illidan Stormrage Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 Marsh and co do not refuse orders. They do as they are told. When they are asked for counsel they grumble (and are unhelpful) as do Mallister and Pyke in their letters when they are given wildlings to man their castles. The author never gives us a poll of watch opinion after the 'seal the gate' plan is debated at CB when half of the castle supports Marsh.Yea, she didn't want to Tywin Lannister the whole ruling class so she tried to win support by marrying into it. Why do you have such a problem with this. It is the eminently responsible thing to do.Ironically i believe if Tywin was ruler in Dany's stead he would have brought the city to order in a month. Dany needs someone like him to help her rule. Perhaps his son? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 Ironically i believe if Tywin was ruler in Dany's stead he would have brought the city to order in a month. Dany needs someone like him to help her rule. Perhaps his son?Well yeah, if Tywin suddenly got pangs of conscience over slavery he would make a better job of it than Dany that is true.I was using the 'TL' phrase somewhat loosely (for the benefit of Starks fans like lady m you see), I just meant unless Dany plans on whole scale extermination of the ruling class (which Tywin would probably not do either) she needed to reconcile it to the new regime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lady m Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 Marsh and co do not refuse orders. They do as they are told. When they are asked for counsel they grumble (and are unhelpful) as do Mallister and Pyke in their letters when they are given wildlings to man their castles. The author never gives us a poll of watch opinion after the 'seal the gate' plan is debated at CB when half of the castle supports Marsh. No, Marsh just decides to attempt to assassinate his commanding officer after the gate is already closed. Which isn't really following orders, is it. The rest of them do what they're supposed to do. Like Cotter Pyke's not going great attempt at rescue at Hardhome. Yea, she didn't want to Tywin Lannister the whole ruling class so she tried to win support by marrying into it. Why do you have such a problem with this. It is the eminently responsible thing to do.The eminently responsible thing is to not turn an entire area of a continent into a chaotic mess and economic nightmare. Something Tywin wouldn't have done. He's brutal, but his brutality has a purpose behind it. So, an oh, crap, I have no clue how to fix this, you do it, isn't really at all responsible. Not when you're the one responsible for the mess in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 No, Marsh just decides to attempt to assassinate his commanding officer after the gate is already closed. Which isn't really following orders, is it. The rest of them do what they're supposed to do. Like Cotter Pyke's not going great attempt at rescue at Hardhome. Cotter and Mallister may well have done the same as Marsh if Jon tried to attack lord Bolton with his own private army.All of Jon's officers obeyed his orders until he stepped very clearly out of line.The eminently responsible thing is to not turn an entire area of a continent into a chaotic mess and economic nightmare. Something Tywin wouldn't have done. He's brutal, but his brutality has a purpose behind it. So, an oh, crap, I have no clue how to fix this, you do it, isn't really at all responsible. Not when you're the one responsible for the mess in the first place.I agree with you that Dany was irresponsible in the way she approached ending slavery.However I think her marriage to Hizzy was an honest and reasonable attempt to bring peace and consolidate her gains and I commend her for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artos Stark Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 Robb Stark I presume but he is dead.... :(Jon Stark will be the next King in the North, it is known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
65536ob Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 hodor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Pollo Loco Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 Stannis Baratheon is the King the realm deserves.But not the one it needs right now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rheagar Prime Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 i;m a targ to the bone so aegon all the way and if jon really is rhaegar's son i will root for him too if someone legalizes him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 But not the one it needs right nowI disagree, Stannis is just the man the realm needs right now. Winter is here and they need a strong man to bring them forward. A man who wont respond to flattery or nonsense. A man who will focus on feeding the smallfolk with his iron bank money Stannis can do just this. A King who will give justice to everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Mark Selmy Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 Someone who doesn't want it.Exactly. In other words, Stannis. Or Jon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 Right now, no one who is currently seeking it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dicer Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 The author never gives us a poll of watch opinion after the 'seal the gate' plan is debated at CB when half of the castle supports Marsh. Where does it say in ADwD that half the castle supported Marsh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 Where does it say in ADwD that half the castle supported Marsh?It doesn't. Notice that Jon had to get stabbed during a big distraction by three (four?) dudes instead of getting mobbed out in public by dozens of men.I agree with you that Dany was irresponsible in the way she approached ending slavery.However I think her marriage to Hizzy was an honest and reasonable attempt to bring peace and consolidate her gains and I commend her for it.Honest and reasonable on her end, I agree. The trouble is she never took five seconds to think that it might not be so peaceful and honorable on his end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hero of Canton Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 Stannis. He alone of the claimants actually came to the Wall when informed of the situation by The Lord Commander. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cameron Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 Sod that, the people. Or individual kingdoms. Or a parliament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Theodan the True Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 Arya? haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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