Did Jon killed Ygritte?

[Stag Country]

Yep. In the "Lightbringer = the Sword in the Darkness = The Night's Watch" interpretation of Jon being AA reborn, this fits well as the sacrificial tempering: He directs his Lightbringer to kill his Nissa Nissa, which in turn allows him to grasp command of it.

Good call.

[Mikkel]

However her death is a direct result of Jon's actions- deserting the wilding party and alerting Castle Black of the inminent attack. Is clear that Jon knows this because he mentions that when dreaming about the event, it was always his arrow on her chest.

I disagree. Her death was a direct result of the wildlings' decision to attack Castle Black.

[Winterfellian]

I disagree. Her death was a direct result of the wildlings' decision to attack Castle Black.

If we are going to do this game, then her death is a direct result of the Others having wake up and started attacking the wildings which cause them to mobilize towards the Wall .

However, I still believe that Jon's actions had a direct impact of Ygritte's death. Mance specifically sent Ygrite with the raiding part because "who was he to separate two hearts that beat as one" in reference to hers and Jon's relationship. He sent her because of Jon. Otherwise, she probably would have been with Tormund's band as she was at that point. As for the attack, it was a practically a guaranteed win for the wildings since CB was unprepared and totally unmanned. Had Jon not deserted, alerted and then coordinated the defenses in CB, the wildings would have probably killed them in their sleep.

[Nictarion]

IIRC it was made clear that it wasnt his arrow

Thats what I thought as well.

[Radical Ser Randy]

Yep. In the "Lightbringer = the Sword in the Darkness = The Night's Watch" interpretation of Jon being AA reborn, this fits well as the sacrificial tempering: He directs his Lightbringer to kill his Nissa Nissa, which in turn allows him to grasp command of it.

I....have never thought of that. Thats an interesting interpretation.

As for the question, it was not his arrow that killed her, though i think he blames himself for it.

[Mikkel]

If we are going to do this game, then her death is a direct result of the Others having wake up and started attacking the wildings which cause them to mobilize towards the Wall .

Oh indeed, that was sort of my point - Jon alerting the NW was only the last event in a long chain that led to her death.

[Winterfellian]

Oh indeed, that was sort of my point - Jon alerting the NW was only the last event in a long chain that led to her death.

This could be argued about the death of practically every character. Ex: Ned. We could blame himself for being so naive, LF for betraying him, Jaime and Cersei for sleeping around, Stannis for not confronting Robert inmediately, Cat for suggesting he go to KG in the first place, Lisa for alerting the Starks of the Lannister plot, LF for making Lisa do the last, Hoster for separating Lisa from LF and making her had an abortion which clearly unhinged her more than she was, etc

Everybody's death is the result of a long chain of events but certain people and events have more impact than others. And like I said before, Ygrtte's relationship with Jon had a direct impact in her death. She wasn't originally a part of Styr's raiders. She got send there because of Jon. The raid was a failure because of Jon. Jon doesn't feel guilty for nothing.

[Gendels Children]

I kind of think he did kill her... just coz I like to have a bitter taste in my mouth

[Nerolunar]

Pure coincidence if he did. I don´t believe it.

[Faceless Weasel]

I kind of think he did kill her... just coz I like to have a bitter taste in my mouth

I agree, for me it makes no difference if the actual arrows in her body didn't come from him. They could easily have, and since he commanded the attack it stands to reason that he holds himself responsible. I personally think he is, and I also think he did what had to be done, as much as I love Ygritte and wish she didn't have to die, the bitterness of the whole thing is what makes Jon a great character.

[Ser Arthyr Dracenstein]

I think Jon will kill Ygritte in the show, but he didn't in the book.

[The Storm King]

I think Jon will kill Ygritte in the show, but he didn't in the book.

i can see this happening

but rose leslie :bawl:

[Direwolfsigil]

having just reread this part today, i just wanted to comment and add these passages, just for thought.

We notice john has goosefeather arrows as the battle starts, he even remembers a relevant point made by Theon " Theres nothing so mortal as a grey goose feather" hes notching his first arrow while talking to Satin.

After taking out a few wildings, Jon runs out of arrows in his quiver. There is no more mentioning of the feathers in the arrow until he finds Ygritte and notices it is white duck feathers.

He gets more: when his quiver was empty, he went to get another, and moved to a different crennel.

clearly at this point john is paying attention to the battle and not the the feathers on his arrows.

He shoots all his arrows again, until Thenns break in a trapdoor below them, which causes john to drop his bow and pull out Longclaw, and he dispatches of the man in front. they then pour the boiling oil down the trapdoor and shut it: John remembers to go back for his bow.

With the confusion of the trapdoor, Jon had forgotten to fill his quiver. He limped back across the roof and did that now, and picked up his bow as well.

Once again he is barely paying attention, who can blame him, his fighting for his life and they are outnumbered now.

he will loose that quiver as well, and a few minutes later, he and satin find a dozen fire arrows ( with yet again, no details whatsoever as to the feathers. There were a dozen fire arrows too.

When he finds Ygritte, it reads:

The arrow was black, Jon saw, but it was fletched with white duck feathers. not mine, he told himself, not one of mine. but he felt as if it were.

Now I have read the guilty feeling could be figurative, which i believe to most likely be the case, But nothing is nearly as definitive as it should be.

I'm really not even claiming that this could be evidence to prove that Jon did kill Ygritte, hell I don't even think it really matters.

But, I would say there's enough there to show us, as with other chapters, theres alot going on and we only see things through Jon's eyes he clearly wasn't paying attention to the arrows he was shooting by the dozens, and hes not even SURE if its not his arrow, he has to try to convince himself of it, and it doesnt even sound all that reassuring to me.

Just my thoughts on this thread :D

[Isildur's Mane]

:agree: After I came away from reading that chapter I got the feeling that we were not meant to know 100% if he did it or not. With the confusion of battle and the amount of times he refilled his quiver it could of been him but then it could of been any one.

It's sad, because I like Ygritte, but I think this is meant to show that Jon is willing to do besmirch his honour and reputation by first turning cloak to the wildlings, then turning on the wildlings and betraying his lover for the Wall and the greater good.

The fact that he doesn't know if he actually killed her or not doesn't really matter, to him he did by turning on the wildlings (even if he didn't really have that much choice in the matter).

[Gendels Children]

having just reread this part today, i just wanted to comment and add these passages, just for thought.

.....................................................

Just my thoughts on this thread :D

this is exactly what I always thought, only I like to think it was him who killed her, it gives an extra punch of tragedy to Jons whole arc, if that's what your into. and yeah in the end I think GRRM wants us to decide for our selves if it was his or not, one of the many interesting mysteries and implications which I think we will never get confirmation on. also it really does seem like Jon was trying to hard to convince himself that it wasn't his arrow, then later he noted that he never found out who it was and he was happy he didn't know, I think because maybe he would find out it was him, I believe Jon HAS to think it was someone else... just my little two cents, I think we are all meant to make the decision for our selves

[Nerolunar]

Oh don't start in with that secret Targ BS. At this point in the story, if the arrow that killed Ygritte turned out to be a secret Targ, it would ruin the arrow's entire arc so far. The issues the arrow that killed Ygritte has with his father, have shaped his whole life, and for him to be a secret Targ just doesn't make sense. Also, the coloring symbolosim is off too, the arrow was black with white feathers, come on.

:rofl:

[Howie Manderly]

He commanded the volley that slew her. The blood is on his hands

[Leto]

Oh indeed, that was sort of my point - Jon alerting the NW was only the last event in a long chain that led to her death.

Who, or which event, "bares responsibility" is rather secundary to the fact that Jon blames himself. Especially if it is about directing a sword through your loved ones heart. Jon was indeed responsible for the sword wielding, regardless of the events that led up to it.

EDIT: as the blame discussion stemmed from the Nissa Nissa comment.

[Kienn]

Jon bears no fault. It is a matter of the wildlings impaling themselves on a figurative sword by choosing to attack the Night's Watch. You can blame Mance for the overall plan or whoever was in charge of the attack, I forget at the moment.

[Grip]

He commanded the volley that slew her. The blood is on his hands

She was part of the force to attack Castle Black, can't blame Jon (or anyone else) for killing her. I am sure she wouldn't, I mean its war after all.