Tower of Joy: something I've never quite understood (possible spoilers)

[the titan of westeros]

Rhaegar was very involved with the prince that was promised prophecy as we learn from Maester Aemon. If Rhaegar thought that this son of his would be the eventual king or savior of mankind, then it seems like it might have been more of a straightforward decision to protect him with his best guards. It might have been difficult to sway the KG but I think once he made them swear vows the decision became final.

[Zupoleon]

Rhaegar was very involved with the prince that was promised prophecy as we learn from Maester Aemon. If Rhaegar thought that this son of his would be the eventual king or savior of mankind, then it seems like it might have been more of a straightforward decision to protect him with his best guards. It might have been difficult to sway the KG but I think once he made them swear vows the decision became final.

Again, that explains why the KG initially stayed (before Jon was born), but it does not explain why Ned found them there after Rhaegar, Aerys, and Aegon were dead. The KG make a point to say they are still upholding their vows, not Rhaegars orders, which means they are there protecting their new King. Otherwise, at least one would have immediately gone to Viserys...

[Ygrain]

This has the potential for a great remake of "3 Men and a Baby" :).

Though Bright Blue Eyes and Ygrain are right: "3 Knights and a Baby away from civilisation but in the middle of hostile territory with no allies in sight" has decidedly worse chances for a happy ending that the original comedy.

Ugh... now the image of the three KG changing a soiled nappy the first time in their lives is eternally burnt into my brain...

:D :D :D

Rhaegar was very involved with the prince that was promised prophecy as we learn from Maester Aemon. If Rhaegar thought that this son of his would be the eventual king or savior of mankind, then it seems like it might have been more of a straightforward decision to protect him with his best guards. It might have been difficult to sway the KG but I think once he made them swear vows the decision became final.

However, their Kingsguard vow to guard and defend the king should take priority over any other vow they might take. While Dayne and probably also Whent, as Rhegar's close friends, might have been swayed, the depiction of Hightower as the epitome of loyalty to his KG vows, IMHO, wouldn't allow for such dereliction of his KG duty. Also, the dialogue of ToJ, with their emphasy on being Kingsguard, is hardly consistent with referring to another vow outside their KG duty.

[Bride of Winter]

To answer the Kings Guard part of the question, I would say it's Rhaegar's obsession with prophecy that lead him and in turn the KG to be very protective over Jon. Once he had a child that was the literal "song of ice and fire" I'd imagine he'd do anything to protect him, including sending the KG off to the tower, even if they needed them in Kings Landing.

As to why they followed Rhaegar's orders and not Aerys: though the KG's job is to protect the king, it without a doubt extends to the whole ruling family, and especially with Aerys' madness and the impending sack of Kings Landing I don't think it's too farfetched to imagine that they turned from protecting Aerys to his heir Rhaegar, and then followed Rhaegar's orders to protect Jon (I'd even venture that with the fall of the Targ dynasty in KL, Rhaegar's new son in the middle of Dorne seemed like the most able to protect out of all the Targaryen heirs, so to make sure that House Targaryen carries on (pretty much the job of the Kings Guard) it even makes sense logically that they would leave KL in favor of going to the tower of joy)

[Turin Turambar]

This has the potential for a great remake of "3 Men and a Baby" :).

Though Bright Blue Eyes and Ygrain are right: "3 Knights and a Baby away from civilisation but in the middle of hostile territory with no allies in sight" has decidedly worse chances for a happy ending that the original comedy.

:)) that was a good one.

Who knows, maybe after finishing ASOIAF, G. R.R. Martin will write a short story about the War of the Usurper and its main players.

[Zupoleon]

To answer the Kings Guard part of the question, I would say it's Rhaegar's obsession with prophecy that lead him and in turn the KG to be very protective over Jon. Once he had a child that was the literal "song of ice and fire" I'd imagine he'd do anything to protect him, including sending the KG off to the tower, even if they needed them in Kings Landing.

As to why they followed Rhaegar's orders and not Aerys: though the KG's job is to protect the king, it without a doubt extends to the whole ruling family, and especially with Aerys' madness and the impending sack of Kings Landing I don't think it's too farfetched to imagine that they turned from protecting Aerys to his heir Rhaegar, and then followed Rhaegar's orders to protect Jon (I'd even venture that with the fall of the Targ dynasty in KL, Rhaegar's new son in the middle of Dorne seemed like the most able to protect out of all the Targaryen heirs, so to make sure that House Targaryen carries on (pretty much the job of the Kings Guard) it even makes sense logically that they would leave KL in favor of going to the tower of joy)

1. The KG weren't sent to the tower after Jon was born.

2. No one could have predicted the 'impending sack of Kings Landing'

3. A tower in the middle of nowhere is safer than the walls of KL and thousands of soldiers?

[Tyrell_like_Squirrel]

Rheagar told Jaime about how he wanted to make changes and certain things had gone on for far too long, right? I don't know where the exact passage is, but my theory has always been that there was a real break in the king's guard as to where their loyalties should lie. Perhaps the three at the ToJ had decided to stop supporting Aerys and throw in completely with Rhaegar.

I mean, the kingsguard was really messed up at this point, Barristan surrendered to Robert, Jaime killed Aerys, so it's not too much of an extension to say that the kings guard was changing in their ways. I say this as an answer as to why they would obey Rhaegar over Aerys. Because even if Jon was the next heir, Aerys was still the king and it would have been odd for the king's guard to just abandon him, unless Rhaegar had some sort of reform in mind and the three knights had decided to join him.

[King of Winters]

Rheagar told Jaime about how he wanted to make changes and certain things had gone on for far too long, right? I don't know where the exact passage is, but my theory has always been that there was a real break in the king's guard as to where their loyalties should lie. Perhaps the three at the ToJ had decided to stop supporting Aerys and throw in completely with Rhaegar.

I mean, the kingsguard was really messed up at this point, Barristan surrendered to Robert, Jaime killed Aerys, so it's not too much of an extension to say that the kings guard was changing in their ways. I say this as an answer as to why they would obey Rhaegar over Aerys. Because even if Jon was the next heir, Aerys was still the king and it would have been odd for the king's guard to just abandon him, unless Rhaegar had some sort of reform in mind and the three knights had decided to join him.

I think he planned to take over from his father as Aerys was not fit to rule any more, and I think Rhaegar would have tried to make peace with the others rebels and fix all that his father had done wrong.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

1. The KG weren't sent to the tower after Jon was born.

2. No one could have predicted the 'impending sack of Kings Landing'

3. A tower in the middle of nowhere is safer than the walls of KL and thousands of soldiers?

3. An unknown tower in the middle of nowhere is safer than the walls of KL and thousands of soldiers when the rebels come with ten thousands of soldiers to take KL.

[Zupoleon]

3. An unknown tower in the middle of nowhere is safer than the walls of KL and thousands of soldiers when the rebels come with ten thousands of soldiers to take KL.

Of course, with the benefit of hindsight. Prior to that however, we are given no indication that Rhaegar was at all worried about the well being of his family in KL, implying that he felt they were perfectly safe where they were...

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The vast majority of the Tower of Joy scene makes so much more sense when you finally accept that yes Rhaegar and Lyanna were married and yes at that point Jon was the rightful king, and that's why the Kingsguard were at the Tower.

[King of Winters]

Of course, with the benefit of hindsight. Prior to that however, we are given no indication that Rhaegar was at all worried about the well being of his family in KL, implying that he felt they were perfectly safe where they were...

He was probably over confidant that he'd beat Robert at the Trident.

[King of Winters]

The vast majority of the Tower of Joy scene makes so much more sense when you finally accept that yes Rhaegar and Lyanna were married and yes at that point Jon was the rightful king, and that's why the Kingsguard were at the Tower.

:agree: why can't everyone agree with this.

[Ygrain]

To answer the Kings Guard part of the question, I would say it's Rhaegar's obsession with prophecy that lead him and in turn the KG to be very protective over Jon. Once he had a child that was the literal "song of ice and fire" I'd imagine he'd do anything to protect him, including sending the KG off to the tower, even if they needed them in Kings Landing.

As to why they followed Rhaegar's orders and not Aerys: though the KG's job is to protect the king, it without a doubt extends to the whole ruling family, and especially with Aerys' madness and the impending sack of Kings Landing I don't think it's too farfetched to imagine that they turned from protecting Aerys to his heir Rhaegar, and then followed Rhaegar's orders to protect Jon (I'd even venture that with the fall of the Targ dynasty in KL, Rhaegar's new son in the middle of Dorne seemed like the most able to protect out of all the Targaryen heirs, so to make sure that House Targaryen carries on (pretty much the job of the Kings Guard) it even makes sense logically that they would leave KL in favor of going to the tower of joy)

Dayne and Whent were with Rhaegar when he "kidnapped" Lyanna and so were at ToJ probably the whole time. Hightower was sent to bring Rhaegar to KL to lead the royal armies after the Battle of Bells (it is unclear how, and if, he knew where to go and under which conditions he stayed at ToJ; at any case, when Rhaegar is about to set off for Trident, Hightower is not accounted for in KL).

The protection of the KG can be extended to the royal family but it cannot take priority over guarding the king. Similarly, they can take orders from the members of the royal family, but again, the ultimate authority is with the king. They can be assigned to other tasks, as long as at least one of them stays with the king - that's why Jaime asks Rhaegar to leave somebody else with Aerys when he wants to accompany him to Trident.

Once Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon are dead, the KG are bound to go to to the next person in the succession line, not just any Targ heir, because he is the new king. By all accounts, that should be Viserys - but the KG stay at ToJ, all three of them, and refer to their KG vows as the reason why they are staying. Unless the new king is at the tower, at least one of them should have gone to Viserys.

Rheagar told Jaime about how he wanted to make changes and certain things had gone on for far too long, right? I don't know where the exact passage is, but my theory has always been that there was a real break in the king's guard as to where their loyalties should lie. Perhaps the three at the ToJ had decided to stop supporting Aerys and throw in completely with Rhaegar.

I mean, the kingsguard was really messed up at this point, Barristan surrendered to Robert, Jaime killed Aerys, so it's not too much of an extension to say that the kings guard was changing in their ways. I say this as an answer as to why they would obey Rhaegar over Aerys. Because even if Jon was the next heir, Aerys was still the king and it would have been odd for the king's guard to just abandon him, unless Rhaegar had some sort of reform in mind and the three knights had decided to join him.

If they decided to follow the prince instead of the king, then they are oathbreakers - for a good cause, but oathbreakers still. With Hightower, who said that it wasn't their job to judge the king after Aerys had roasted a person alive, I find such a change of heart hard to believe. And even if they did, I don't think they would be referring to their KG status so proudly and claim that had they been present, Aerys would still have been sitting his throne.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

He was probably over confidant that he'd beat Robert at the Trident.

That, and he probably didn't foresee the siege of the capital or Jaime turning on Aerys.

[Zupoleon]

He was probably over confidant that he'd beat Robert at the Trident.

Ehh, I wouldn't go that far. Rhaegar rode off to war reluctantly - that doesn't sound too overconfident to me. I'd go as far as to say he believed he would win...

[King of Winters]

Ehh, I wouldn't go that far. Rhaegar rode off to war reluctantly - that doesn't sound too overconfident to me. I'd go as far as to say he believed he would win...

When Jaime reminisces about the last time he spoke to Rhaegar, Rhaegar says something like "when I return I mean to change things", not if I return. He obviously didn't think he would lose.

[Bride of Winter]

1. The KG weren't sent to the tower after Jon was born.

2. No one could have predicted the 'impending sack of Kings Landing'

3. A tower in the middle of nowhere is safer than the walls of KL and thousands of soldiers?

Considering Aerys was absolutely insane towards the end of his reign, I simply don't find it too hard to believe that Rhaegar managed to find three Kings Guard members loyal enough to him (or put off enough by Aerys) to not object to heading to the Tower of Joy to protect his soon to be born (better?) heir.

I disagree with "no one could have predicted the impending sack of Kings Landing", but if that was the case, a portion of the kingsguard heading off to protect the prince's heir would be even less of a big deal.

[Zupoleon]

When Jaime reminisces about the last time he spoke to Rhaegar, Rhaegar says something like "when I return I mean to change things", not if I return. He obviously didn't think he would lose.

Belief / overconfidence - potato / potatoe i guess... ;)

Considering Aerys was absolutely insane towards the end of his reign, I simply don't find it too hard to believe that Rhaegar managed to find three Kings Guard members loyal enough to him (or put off enough by Aerys) to not object to heading to the Tower of Joy to protect his soon to be born (better?) heir.

I disagree with "no one could have predicted the impending sack of Kings Landing", but if that was the case, a portion of the kingsguard heading off to protect the prince's heir would be even less of a big deal.

Dayne and Whent were with Rhaegar the whole time. Furthermore, the 3 KG insist they have been true to their vows - that doesn't sound like guys who abandoned their King (Aerys).

I'd like to see the guy who predicted that Jaime would stab Aerys in the back, and that Tywin would sack the city...

[Ygrain]

Considering Aerys was absolutely insane towards the end of his reign, I simply don't find it too hard to believe that Rhaegar managed to find three Kings Guard members loyal enough to him (or put off enough by Aerys) to not object to heading to the Tower of Joy to protect his soon to be born (better?) heir.

I disagree with "no one could have predicted the impending sack of Kings Landing", but if that was the case, a portion of the kingsguard heading off to protect the prince's heir would be even less of a big deal.

Please, read the relevant post 34. The KG didn't leave for ToJ, they had already been there.