Tower of Joy: something I've never quite understood (possible spoilers)

[Turin Turambar]

The show doesn't even have the one black character in Westeros (I forget his name, always in KL asking for something). Racist!

The Salty Dornishmen come close.

[Balerion06]

He would fight them and die doing his duty - defending his king.

Considering the botched job all three have done of defending this supposedly legitimate king, I have no doubt he'd die.

We're derailing this argument anyway. My point was that the presence of the KG at the TOJ was not definitive proof that Jon is legitimate, because if he was, they did the worst job defending him imaginable. Ergo, Jon's a bastard and the KG at the TOJ simply wanted to die an honourable death rather than kneel to an usurper.

Of course, this isn't taking into account that Ned's dream might simply be metaphorical for the events that transpired at the TOJ. If that's the case and the KG actually did do a semi-competent job defending Jon, then I can buy him being a legitimate heir.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Honestly, I think Aerys granted the 3 of them to protect his son, otherwise they wouldn't be with him because despite their friendship with Rhaegar, the 3 were always regarded as honor and duty above all. Evidence to this would be that Rhaegar as the Prince and heir to the throne should be somewhat guarded by Kingsguard and yet in the Trident there were none bodyguarding him.

Except that there were three KG at the Trident. Martlell and Darry died, Selmy was wounded.

If it were me, I would have made for Dorne. The Martell's would have been able to hide Jon and keep him secret from the realm. Since it would be just one man and a baby, they could potentially make the journey provided Dayne lost his white cloak and Dawn.

You mean the Martells that just lost four family members, a kingship, a war, their face and 10,000 men to the war to the love whose result they are now expected to hide? Risky, risky.

[King of Winters]

Considering the botched job all three have done of defending this supposedly legitimate king, I have no doubt he'd die.

We're derailing this argument anyway. My point was that the presence of the KG at the TOJ was not definitive proof that Jon is legitimate, because if he was, they did the worst job defending him imaginable. Ergo, Jon's a bastard and the KG at the TOJ simply wanted to die an honourable death rather than kneel to an usurper.

Of course, this isn't taking into account that Ned's dream might simply be metaphorical for the events that transpired at the TOJ. If that's the case and the KG actually did do a semi-competent job defending Jon, then I can buy him being a legitimate heir.

Their one purpose is to protect the king. Sure they died whilst trying to but they wouldn't they fought Ned and company without having a reason. That reason, Jon is their lawful king.

[Sasha Steelsong]

Considering the botched job all three have done of defending this supposedly legitimate king, I have no doubt he'd die.

We're derailing this argument anyway. My point was that the presence of the KG at the TOJ was not definitive proof that Jon is legitimate, because if he was, they did the worst job defending him imaginable. Ergo, Jon's a bastard and the KG at the TOJ simply wanted to die an honourable death rather than kneel to an usurper.

Of course, this isn't taking into account that Ned's dream might simply be metaphorical for the events that transpired at the TOJ. If that's the case and the KG actually did do a semi-competent job defending Jon, then I can buy him being a legitimate heir.

It is a logical fallacy to suggest that their effectiveness is in any way an indicator as to Jon's legitimacy. It is their presence that speaks to that, not whether they were able to defend him or not. Jon would not magically become legitimate if they'd won, thus whether they were effective isn't part of the issue at all.

[Ser Theodan the True]

Except that there were three KG at the Trident. Martlell and Darry died, Selmy was wounded.

You mean the Martells that just lost four family members, a kingship, a war, their face and 10,000 men to the war to the love whose result they are now expected to hide? Risky, risky.

Yes, seeing how Doran's been plotting against the Usurper since his family was gutted. And he's been planning on marrying Arianne to Viserys for 15 years, so wouldn't he just switch to Jon since he'd already be in Dorne and can be groomed/molded to his liking. Just a crazy hypothetical lol.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Yes, seeing how Doran's been plotting against the Usurper since his family was gutted. And he's been planning on marrying Arianne to Viserys for 15 years, so wouldn't he just switch to Jon since he'd already be in Dorne and can be groomed/molded to his liking. Just a crazy hypothetical lol.

Sorry, Arthur Dayne left his crystal ball in Kings Landing.

[Techelles]

It is a logical fallacy to suggest that their effectiveness is in any way an indicator as to Jon's legitimacy. It is their presence that speaks to that, not whether they were able to defend him or not. Jon would not magically become legitimate if they'd won, thus whether they were effective isn't part of the issue at all.

This. And it doesn't really make sense to suggest that because Jon was a bastard, the KG just decided not to try very hard. They still had a king to defend elsewhere, right?

Also, I'd say that defending the king and preparing for a last stand in which you will most likely die are not at all mutually exclusive. And as Apple said, the KG almost won.

Sorry, Arthur Dayne left his crystal ball in Kings Landing.

Tsk, he should have known better. Silly kingsguard.

[Ser Theodan the True]

Sorry, Arthur Dayne left his crystal ball in Kings Landing.

Isn't this kind of ridiculous speculation the reason this forum exists?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

If it were me, I would have made for Dorne. The Martell's would have been able to hide Jon and keep him secret from the realm. Since it would be just one man and a baby, they could potentially make the journey provided Dayne lost his white cloak and Dawn.

I think this is probably the likeliest answer, except I think he'd keep the Martells out of it. Dorne is Dayne's home turf and his own castle isn't that far away. A single man in that country with a baby, if he gets rid of the "trappings" of who he is, wouldn't arouse that much suspicion. Also important to note that no one is on the lookout for Jon at this point.

[The Wrong Tree]

Considering the botched job all three have done of defending this supposedly legitimate king, I have no doubt he'd die.

We're derailing this argument anyway. My point was that the presence of the KG at the TOJ was not definitive proof that Jon is legitimate, because if he was, they did the worst job defending him imaginable. Ergo, Jon's a bastard and the KG at the TOJ simply wanted to die an honourable death rather than kneel to an usurper.

Of course, this isn't taking into account that Ned's dream might simply be metaphorical for the events that transpired at the TOJ. If that's the case and the KG actually did do a semi-competent job defending Jon, then I can buy him being a legitimate heir.

I wouldn't consider them dying while trying to protect the probably legitimate heir a botched job. I think for a kingsguard to have "botched" the job would have been if they had surrendered him or they hadn't tried to protect him at all. The point of the kingsguard is to do everything within their power to protect the king. If that king is a baby in a tower and they are outnumbered then their duty is to try and kill as many of the enemies as possible... which they did. Also you don't offer an alternative for what they could have done to do a better job of protecting Lyanna and her child; what other options did they truly have?

On a different note, if we assume that Rhaegar and Lyanna married, thus making their child legitimate (whether female or male), wouldn't she then be considered part of the royal family and thus worth protecting? It's not like the kingsguard disregards all female parts of the dynasty. I feel as though this thread has focused solely on the child being male: even if the child was born female they surely would have protected it right? While a girl wouldn't have inherited the throne she would have been used for strong marriages with other families, thus making her an asset worth protecting. I realize that they would have been more concerned with getting to the rightful king but given the circumstances I don't think that was really an option. By this I mean that they couldn't have left the legitimate female child to go find the king (Viserys), they would have maybe split up keeping at least one kingsguard with her.

I hope I worded that in a way that makes sense. I feel like I really jumbled up what I was thinking in my head so sorry if it's a bit confusing :blushing:

[The guy from the Vale]

@Usr: kingship wasn't the reason why the KG were at the ToJ at the beginning, true. It's the reason why they stayed even after hearing that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead, though.

[Techelles]

snip

I think you may be laboring under the misapprehension that the reason Rhaegar originally placed the KG at the ToJ is the same reason they stayed when they found out that everyone else had died. It is not. The situation changed drastically after the sack of KL.

[Ser Theodan the True]

The more it's discussed the more confusing this becomes. So were they there solely for Rhaegar or were they there because of their vows to protect the king?!

[Brynden Rivers Bloodraven]

Rhaegar married Lyanna making Jon (at the time unborn) the third in the line of succession (Rhaegar - Aegon - Jon). At the time Rhaegar thought he would win the war, so Aegon would be safe in KL, but with Aerys mad and Lyanna daughter and sister to traitors, she and Jon wouldn't be safe. So he left the Kingsguard with them until he had won the war and made the changes he spoke to Jaime, probably becoming king. After that they would all go to KL and be happy forever.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think you may be laboring under the misapprehension that the reason Rhaegar originally placed the KG at the ToJ is the same reason they stayed when they found out that everyone else had died. It is not. The situation changed drastically after the sack of KL.

Exactly. The reason they were there in the first place is not the same reason they're still there when Ned arrived.

[Angalin]

Any more personal sniping and bans will be handed out. Thank you.

[The Fallen]

` I'm with Usrnmhsnomning. I was just debating the same issue over the last few days.

Regardless of whether one or all seven Kingsguards were at the ToJ, the question remains, "why were they there even before Jon was born?"

The answer can't be that they were protecting the future king, unless Rhaegar knew for a fact he was having a son, which posters have pointed wasn't the case, even stating that Rhaegar thought he would have a second daughter (to mirror Aegon and his two sisters). And whether Rhaegar and Lyanna were married is irrelevant because if it's a daughter that's born then the three Kingsguard just wasted their time.

And you can't dismiss the question by saying that it's irrelevant because it ended up being a son. Are the KG that disposable that even though a battle is raging, close to King's Landing, they're in Dorne protecting the possible heir? Again, why have three KG protecting an unborn child, not the future king?

Now, my argument is that the KG were there protecting someone more important than a king. They were protecting the future savior of the realm, the PtwP. That's the only thing that makes sense to me.

Ned's dream about the ToJ is great in that it can be interpreted in so many ways. For instance, the vow that the KG refer to can easily be "we're protecting Jon, the king", but it can easily have a deeper meaning, such as "we're upholding a vow to Rheagar to protect the future savior of the realm".

Total fail, and just the most obvious in a series too.

No way, absolutely no way, can they stand and say they Swore A Vow and be thinking that an order from Rhaegar supercedes their prime purpose as KG and that they can leave Viserys unprotected by KG while still following their vows.

It didn't supersede Jaime choosing his family over the king. The three KG at the ToJ are human. If Rhaegar can convince them that it's imperative to stay and protect his third child, why is it so impossible to believe that they would have followed those orders? Especially if they believe, like Rhaegar, that the child that we know as Jon is the PtwP?

Also, why didn't Barristan die to protect his king? Why did he go to service for the usurper, err...new king?

Rhaegar married Lyanna making Jon (at the time unborn) the third in the line of succession (Rhaegar - Aegon - Jon). At the time Rhaegar thought he would win the war, so Aegon would be safe in KL, but with Aerys mad and Lyanna daughter and sister to traitors, she and Jon wouldn't be safe. So he left the Kingsguard with them until he had won the war and made the changes he spoke to Jaime, probably becoming king. After that they would all go to KL and be happy forever.

Except Jon hadn't been born yet. Rhaegar told the KG to protect his mistress/wife and his unborn bastard/legitimate child, but not future king as he didn't know that he would be having a son.

Exactly. The reason they were there in the first place is not the same reason they're still there when Ned arrived.

But the question we're asking is why they were there in the first place?

I'll give you two options:

1. They were with Lyanna to protect a possible future king. And if the child happened to be a girl...oops!

2. They were there because Rhaegar convinced them that the child would be the PtwP.

Grammar

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The more it's discussed the more confusing this becomes. So were they there solely for Rhaegar or were they there because of their vows to protect the king?!

At the beginning they were there because Rhaegar told them to stay there — not unusual at all considering Lyanna was carrying an heir to the throne and the other royal family members already had protection. At the end they were there because at that point Jon was their king.

For example, if they learned that Jaime had turned, Selmy was wounded and Darry and Martell were dead but that Aegon was still alive, Aegon would be their king and they would be obligated to go to him. But because Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon were all dead, that left them with Jon.

I swear it is not that confusing and people are making it harder to sort out than it really is.

[The guy from the Vale]

` I'll give you two options:

1. They were with Lyanna to protect a possible future king. And if the child happened to be a girl...oops!

2. They were there because Rhaegar convinced them that the child would be the PtwP.

It's 3. Rhaegar ordered them to, for whatever reason that might have included the PtwP. Doesn't mean the KG would have been true believers in that prophecy, only that it was an order they could follow as long as there was no superseding order by Aerys or their primary duty called. But then their primary duty did call... and they stayed. That's what we're concerned about.