Tower of Joy: something I've never quite understood (possible spoilers)

[The Fallen]

It's 3. Rhaegar ordered them to, for whatever reason that might have included the PtwP. Doesn't mean the KG would have been true believers in that prophecy, only that it was an order they could follow as long as there was no superseding order by Aerys or their primary duty called. But then their primary duty did call... and they stayed. That's what we're concerned about.

Well, that's one way of looking at it. It still seems like a waste of three Kingsguads, that they just happened to fall into doing their duty by circumstance instead of being and dying there because of a vow they made to Rhaegar from the get.

I'm hoping that the reason they were there initially will eventually come out. But I still hold to the belief that the reason they were there in the first place is the reason they were there at the end.

[The Fallen]

At the beginning they were there because Rhaegar told them to stay there — not unusual at all considering Lyanna was carrying an heir to the throne and the other royal family members already had protection. At the end they were there because at that point Jon was their king.

For example, if they learned that Jaime had turned, Selmy was wounded and Darry and Martell were dead but that Aegon was still alive, Aegon would be their king and they would be obligated to go to him. But because Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon were all dead, that left them with Jon.

I swear it is not that confusing and people are making it harder to sort out than it really is.

But no one knew that the child would be a son and thus an heir. Unless by heir you mean that male or female, it would fall somewhere down the line of heirs.

I think there is the commonly held belief that the KG were there for Jon, heir and future king. But it could be, and personally I think it will be, much bigger than simply protecting the king.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

But no one knew that the child would be a son and thus an heir. Unless by heir you mean that male or female, it would fall somewhere down the line of heirs.

I think there is the commonly held belief that the KG were there for Jon, heir and future king. But it could be, and personally I think it will be, much bigger than simply protecting the king.

I have already answered this, I swear. Please read the thread. It is frustrating to have to repeat myself so many times.

Yes it is true that they didn't know that Jon would be a boy. But at that time, the royal family was still protected by other members of the Kingsguard. No one went unprotected just because they were there with a pregnant Lyanna, because there were still Darry, Jaime, Selmy and Martell.

My argument is that the by the time the Kingsguard found out that Aerys, Aegon and Rhaegar were dead, Jon had already been born and was obviously born a boy. Now, if they had found out about the deaths before Jon was born, sure, they might have hedged their bets and sent one of their number to Dragonstone to be with Viserys. And if Jon had been born a girl they'd have gone to Viserys. But by the time it came to that point where they might have to choose between Lyanna's baby and Viserys, the outcome had already been chosen because Jon had already been born and been born male. The "but they didn't know he'd be a boy" argument is moot.

[Usrnmhsnomning]

My argument is that the by the time the Kingsguard found out that Aerys, Aegon and Rhaegar were dead, Jon had already been born and was obviously born a boy. Now, if they had found out about the deaths before Jon was born, sure, they might have hedged their bets and sent one of their number to Dragonstone to be with Viserys. And if Jon had been born a girl they'd have gone to Viserys. But by the time it came to that point where they might have to choose between Lyanna's baby and Viserys, the outcome had already been chosen because Jon had already been born and been born male. The "but they didn't know he'd be a boy" argument is moot.

And the responding argument is that the KG were there because Rhaegar ordered it. Why did Rhaegar order it? Because of the prophecies he's been trying desperately to fulfill. I think they are protecting the child, male or female, legitimate or bastard, because Rhaegar ordered it. Not because circumstances happened to occur that potentially made the child a king.

I have already answered this, I swear. Please read the thread. It is frustrating to have to repeat myself so many times.

Yes, but you have to accept your answer is just interpretation and people are absolutely welcome to have a differing take on the text. There's no need to bash your head on the wall because people are disagreeing with you. We're not talking about 2 + 2 = 4 here, we're talking about what the intent of the artist was when he drew his picture. It simply IS open to discussion, so please don't get so frustrated.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

And the responding argument is that the KG were there because Rhaegar ordered it. Why did Rhaegar order it? Because of the prophecies he's been trying desperately to fulfill. I think they are protecting the child, male or female, legitimate or bastard, because Rhaegar ordered it. Not because circumstances happened to occur that potentially made the child a king.

That explains why they stayed when Rhaegar left (as does, you know, Lyanna being his wife and being pregnant with an heir) but not why they were still there when Ned arrived. They are very clear to Ned that they are NOT breaking their oaths as Kingsguard, which they WOULD be doing if Viserys were the king and they were only there because of a prophecy. "The Kingsguard do not flee." "We swore a vow." It ain't very ambiguous.

Yes, but you have to accept your answer is just interpretation and people are absolutely welcome to have a differing take on the text. There's no need to bash your head on the wall because people are disagreeing with you. We're not talking about 2 + 2 = 4 here, we're talking about what the intent of the artist was when he drew his picture. It simply IS open to discussion, so please don't get so frustrated.

If people disagree with it, fine. What I take issue with is people asking the question as if it hasn't already been addressed (multiple times, by the way), which it has been. Just because someone might not like the answer doesn't mean one hasn't been given.

And I still maintain that the answer is far less complicated than people are making it out to be.

[Lord Damian]

Apple is dead on regarding Why the KG were there. Jon was the King in their view, his safety is all that mattered. It is too bad that those 3 plus 5 of Ned's had to die. Being Ned's nature, I am sure if they had told Ned or took him to Lyanna, good men would not have had to die at that point.

[Usrnmhsnomning]

They are very clear to Ned that they are NOT breaking their oaths as Kingsguard, which they WOULD be doing if Viserys were the king and they were only there because of a prophecy. "The Kingsguard do not flee." "We swore a vow." It ain't very ambiguous.

I find that passage to be the opposite. Ned points out several cases where these three should have been as their duty dictates, and they effectively say "Yeah, you're right, but we are here instead". I can't equate that "vow" to being "protect the king", given, as I've said, they did not personally protect the king, the prince, or the heir and were instead with the potential 4th in line. To me that suggests their vow has nothing to do with succession and everything to do with Rhaegars orders.

Just because someone might not like the answer doesn't mean one hasn't been given.

Just because you don't like the question doesn't mean your answer is 100% fact.

[The Fallen]

I have already answered this, I swear. Please read the thread. It is frustrating to have to repeat myself so many times.

Yes it is true that they didn't know that Jon would be a boy. But at that time, the royal family was still protected by other members of the Kingsguard. No one went unprotected just because they were there with a pregnant Lyanna, because there were still Darry, Jaime, Selmy and Martell.

My argument is that the by the time the Kingsguard found out that Aerys, Aegon and Rhaegar were dead, Jon had already been born and was obviously born a boy. Now, if they had found out about the deaths before Jon was born, sure, they might have hedged their bets and sent one of their number to Dragonstone to be with Viserys. And if Jon had been born a girl they'd have gone to Viserys. But by the time it came to that point where they might have to choose between Lyanna's baby and Viserys, the outcome had already been chosen because Jon had already been born and been born male. The "but they didn't know he'd be a boy" argument is moot.

I understand all of that. The intriguing thing to me is that there were three Kingsguards protecting Lyanna and future child. Let's say that Rhaegar marries Lyanna and knows she's pregnant and he's trying to protect her. Couldn't he have sent her north? Or to Starfall without any fanfare? It's not like Lyanna and child were Westeros' Most Wanted.

So it's tantalizing to me that Rhaegar went out of his way to have three KG protect Lyanna, one of which was the greatest knight in the realm (as described by several characters). I just think that that little decision says a lot about what was going on with Lyanna and Rheagar and the child, a lot what we don't know right now.

But I think that simply saying that they were there in a "just in case" situation doesn't make sense.

If people disagree with it, fine. What I take issue with is people asking the question as if it hasn't already been addressed (multiple times, by the way), which it has been. Just because someone might not like the answer doesn't mean one hasn't been given.

And I still maintain that the answer is far less complicated than people are making it out to be.

The answer I've seen is that they were protecting Lyanna and her child. If that's all they were doing Rheagar could have protected them without three KG. They could have been sent north or to Dorne with the Dayne's.

But why were the KG at the ToJ before Rhaegar's death at the Trident and before the deaths of Aerys and Aegon? I'd be interested in what the answer to that question might be.

[The Fallen]

Apple is dead on regarding Why the KG were there. Jon was the King in their view, his safety is all that mattered. It is too bad that those 3 plus 5 of Ned's had to die. Being Ned's nature, I am sure if they had told Ned or took him to Lyanna, good men would not have had to die at that point.

The Kingsguard were there before Lyanna had given birth. So there has to be another reason why they're there.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The Kingsguard were there before Lyanna had given birth. So there has to be another reason why they're there.

Because Rhaegar told them to stay there. He kept Kingsguard there as opposed to Joe Blow Goldcloak because Lyanna, being Rhaegar's wife, was a member of the royal family herself and pregnant with another. The Kingsguard, unlike virtually every other soldierly outfit we've seen, would also have been impervious to, say, bribes or tip-offs or squawking.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I find that passage to be the opposite. Ned points out several cases where these three should have been as their duty dictates, and they effectively say "Yeah, you're right, but we are here instead". I can't equate that "vow" to being "protect the king", given, as I've said, they did not personally protect the king, the prince, or the heir and were instead with the potential 4th in line. To me that suggests their vow has nothing to do with succession and everything to do with Rhaegars orders.

Funny then how they talk about their vow in conjunction with being Kingsguard, though, right? Nothing about being Rhaegar's BFFs or being there to fulfill a prophecy. Note too that in two of the three cases that Ned mentions involving royal family members — Rhaegar on the Trident and Aerys in King's Landing — there were other Kingsguard there. The guys at the Tower didn't actually leave the king high and dry because there were other guards there to protect them. Breaking the oath — leaving the king totally unprotected — is only the case if Viserys is the king at that point, because unlike Rhaegar and Aerys, he is completely without Kingsguard protection. I also go back to one of my earlier points: That by the time the guys at the Tower knew that Aerys, Aegon and/or Rhaegar might really be in need of them, it was too late and they were already dead. Like I said before, I think you're seriously misreading the information that the Kingsguard had and when they had it. They don't have Verizon.

Just because you don't like the question doesn't mean your answer is 100% fact.

And equally, disliking an answer doesn't mean one hasn't been given. See how that works?

[The Fallen]

Because Rhaegar told them to stay there. He kept Kingsguard there as opposed to Joe Blow Goldcloak because Lyanna, being Rhaegar's wife, was a member of the royal family herself and pregnant with another. The Kingsguard, unlike virtually every other soldierly outfit we've seen, would also have been impervious to, say, bribes or tip-offs or squawking.

Fair enough. I guess we'll agree to disagree. We'll just have to wait and see it the books bear out my suspicions.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Fair enough. I guess we'll agree to disagree. We'll just have to wait and see it the books bear out my suspicions.

I suppose but I still maintain that you guys are making it much harder than it really has to be. ;)

[Ygrain]

I understand all of that. The intriguing thing to me is that there were three Kingsguards protecting Lyanna and future child. Let's say that Rhaegar marries Lyanna and knows she's pregnant and he's trying to protect her. Couldn't he have sent her north? Or to Starfall without any fanfare? It's not like Lyanna and child were Westeros' Most Wanted.

So it's tantalizing to me that Rhaegar went out of his way to have three KG protect Lyanna, one of which was the greatest knight in the realm (as described by several characters). I just think that that little decision says a lot about what was going on with Lyanna and Rheagar and the child, a lot what we don't know right now.

But I think that simply saying that they were there in a "just in case" situation doesn't make sense.

The answer I've seen is that they were protecting Lyanna and her child. If that's all they were doing Rheagar could have protected them without three KG. They could have been sent north or to Dorne with the Dayne's.

But why were the KG at the ToJ before Rhaegar's death at the Trident and before the deaths of Aerys and Aegon? I'd be interested in what the answer to that question might be.

Er, she is, actually. If the Rebels got her, they would hardly ever return her to Rhaegar. If Aerys got her... is someting I really don't want to imagine in detail but it might include fire and blood for many people.

Why have her protected by KG? Because they are absolutely and unwaveringly loyal, so they won't tell (and by keeping them away from Aerys, the only way they could tell, his order, is safely eliminated), and because they are capable fighters, thus eliminating the need to bring in potentaly unreliable outsiders.

[The Fallen]

Er, she is, actually. If the Rebels got her, they would hardly ever return her to Rhaegar. If Aerys got her... is someting I really don't want to imagine in detail but it might include fire and blood for many people.

Why have her protected by KG? Because they are absolutely and unwaveringly loyal, so they won't tell (and by keeping them away from Aerys, the only way they could tell, his order, is safely eliminated), and because they are capable fighters, thus eliminating the need to bring in potentaly unreliable outsiders.

So Ned finds out where Westeros' Most Wanted is located and shows up with...count them, six friends.

And if you're trying to keep her from Aerys then what happens if the royalists had won? Kingsguard or not they would have had to report back to King's Landing at some point. Do they arrive with Lyanna? Never mind what happens if the royalists win, but Rhaegar dies in your scenario. Leaving her with the Dayne's is hardly bringing in unreliable outsiders.

It's late and I need some Zz's. Rhaegar was a big-picture kind of guy. Thus why he risked angering one of the oldest houses in Westeros in order to conceive the PtwP. And it's why he chose his best friend, Ser Arthur Dayne, to protect that child above all else. Man that makes for a hell of a story.

*Mistakes

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

So Ned finds out where Westeros' Most Wanted is located and shows up with...count them, six friends.

I fail to see the problem. Ned went with as few people as he dared because he knew what he'd find there.

And if you're trying to keep her from Aerys then what happens if the royalists had won? Kingsguard or not they would have had to report back to King's Landing at some point. Do they arrive with Lyanna? Never mind what happens if the royalists win, but Rhaegar dies in your scenario. Leaving her with the Dayne's is hardly bringing in unreliable outsiders.

It's late and I need some Zz's. Rhaegar was a big-picture kind of guy. Thus why he risked angering one of the oldest houses in Westeros in order to conceive the PtwP. And it's why he chose his best friend, Ser Arthur Dayne, to protect that child above all else. Man that makes for a hell of a story.

*Mistakes

Pretty sure it's strongly implied that Rhaegar is planning a coup or at least a forced abdication of some kind.

[Ygrain]

So Ned finds out where Westeros' Most Wanted is located and shows up with...count them, six friends.

And if you're trying to keep her from Aerys then what happens if the royalists had won? Kingsguard or not they would have had to report back to King's Landing at some point. Do they arrive with Lyanna? Never mind what happens if the royalists win, but Rhaegar dies in your scenario. Leaving her with the Dayne's is hardly bringing in unreliable outsiders.

It's late and I need some Zz's. Rhaegar was a big-picture kind of guy. Thus why he risked angering one of the oldest houses in Westeros in order to conceive the PtwP. And it's why he chose his best friend, Ser Arthur Dayne, to protect that child above all else. Man that makes for a hell of a story.

*Mistakes

You've missed the point. Lyanna is hot stuff during the Rebellion when she would be used to bring Ned and Robert in line, and keep Rhaegar in check, as well. If Rhaegar is dead but the royalists won, then neither reason applies any longer. Aerys might still want to takesome mad revenge on her, in which case the KG had better sent her off to the Free Cities

Unreliable outsiders refers to bringing more soldiers to ToJ.

Also, when Ned turns up the Rebellion is over, the situation has changed

.

[The Fallen]

You've missed the point. Lyanna is hot stuff during the Rebellion when she would be used to bring Ned and Robert in line, and keep Rhaegar in check, as well. If Rhaegar is dead but the royalists won, then neither reason applies any longer. Aerys might still want to takesome mad revenge on her, in which case the KG had better sent her off to the Free Cities

Unreliable outsiders refers to bringing more soldiers to ToJ.

Also, when Ned turns up the Rebellion is over, the situation has changed

How about if they were just guarding the PtwP? Still not willing to go there?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

How about if they were just guarding the PtwP? Still not willing to go there?

Except that when Ned confronts them, like I said, they assert that they're fulfilling the KINGSGUARD vow, not some vow to follow through on Rhaegar's prophecy or anything whatsoever to do with the PtwP. They're honoring the vows they swore as Kingsguard — they're there because Jon is the king and Jon is there. For the fiftieth time.

[Moët]

Not only are they the three best member's of the KG, but it's the Lord Commander of the KG (Hightower), and Rhaegar's best friend (Dayne.)

This means that Rhaegar married Lyanna, making her offspring not only legitimate, but possibly the heir if it's a son.

By the time Ned and Co show up, and the KG reiterate they're there because they swore a vow, and are doing their sworn duty, they are indeed doing just that: Guarding the King.