Tower of Joy: something I've never quite understood (possible spoilers)

[Techelles]

How about if they were just guarding the PtwP? Still not willing to go there?

Can you provide any quote from the text that supports the idea that Rhaegar changed his mind about Aegon being the PtwP? That would be a good place to start.

[The Fallen]

Can you provide any quote from the text that supports the idea that Rhaegar changed his mind about Aegon being the PtwP? That would be a good place to start.

There's no text for the PtwP, no text for a marriage. Had there been we wouldn't be debating. As I said to Apple Martini, let's just agree to disagree. Again, I'm not arguing against Jon being the heir.

But I must needs sleep now so that I may keep up with you guys on the morrow.

[Techelles]

There's no text for the PtwP, no text for a marriage. Had there been we wouldn't be debating. As I said to Apple Martini, let's just agree to disagree. Again, I'm not arguing against Jon being the heir.

But I must needs sleep now so that I may keep up with you guys on the morrow.

Where are the hints, then? I just want to know why you think this, because you say it all the time.

And the quotes supporting the marriage are the ones about the duty of the KG. Ned's dream. That stuff. That's what I mean by quotes; I'm not asking for an explicit in-story statement.

[anon76returns]

I also go back to one of my earlier points: That by the time the guys at the Tower knew that Aerys, Aegon and/or Rhaegar might really be in need of them, it was too late and they were already dead.

Is it possible that they didn't know until informed by Ned? Certainly it seems that Jon wasn't born until shortly before or shortly after Ned arrives, since Lyanna died from childbirth and was still alive to beg Ned for a favor.

{edit} On the other hand their glib responses to Ned suggest that they were at least somewhat familiar with the political situation in Westeros, and who was dead or fled to Dragonstone.

[Dicer]

I get the feeling that most of Ned's dream was metaphorical and a lot of imagery. And it did not happen exactly the way Ned dreams it. The fight may have been more complicated then just a clash of swords. He describes his friends as being wraiths. Things like Ned hearing Lyanna's scream and rose petals flying across a blood red sky.

Plus the conversation between Ned and the KG was mainly there to give the readers a hint that the KG were there for an important reason.

Ned: You were not on the Trident with Rhaegar?

KG: No

Ned: You were not with Aerys in KL?

KG: No

Ned: You were not fighting at Storm's end?

KG: No

Ned: You did not flee with Viserys and Darry?

KG: No

Ned: Hmmm

Readers: Hmmm

It's an interesting scene and all the theories are fascinating. I can't wait to hear Howland Reed's account. I hope we get to hear it.

[aquintus]

deleted

[jon crow]

i think rhaegar's child would be more than enough to justify the kingsguard, legitimate or not. one thing that's become more and more clear is that rhaegar had a gift for inspiring great loyalty. people loved him (look at jon connington). the kingsguard aren't simply bodyguards. these men spend night and day in the presence of the royal family, sharing in their secrets as well as defending their lives. it's a much more personal relationship than, 'oh, this is my job, ho hum.' these men were rhaegar's friends as well as his protectors, being more of age with him than ol' aerys.

the kingsguard are people, not unthinking pawns. if even barristan selmy had misgivings about aerys, the others certainly did as well, and it wouldn't be inconceivable for them to throw in with rhaegar. vows and oaths in and of themselves are not enough, it's the men they're sworn to that really matter. words are wind, and different men are going to interpret their oaths with differing flexibility from the next. regardless of jon's legitimacy, i believe the men present at the tower of joy had more than enough loyalty to rhaegar in death not to desert simply because the mad king and his heirs were dead or fled.

as for why rhaegar didn't keep lyanna in king's landing, well... his (other?) wife was there.

[Ygrain]

How about if they were just guarding the PtwP? Still not willing to go there?

i think rhaegar's child would be more than enough to justify the kingsguard, legitimate or not. one thing that's become more and more clear is that rhaegar had a gift for inspiring great loyalty. people loved him (look at jon connington). the kingsguard aren't simply bodyguards. these men spend night and day in the presence of the royal family, sharing in their secrets as well as defending their lives. it's a much more personal relationship than, 'oh, this is my job, ho hum.' these men were rhaegar's friends as well as his protectors, being more of age with him than ol' aerys.

the kingsguard are people, not unthinking pawns. if even barristan selmy had misgivings about aerys, the others certainly did as well, and it wouldn't be inconceivable for them to throw in with rhaegar. vows and oaths in and of themselves are not enough, it's the men they're sworn to that really matter. words are wind, and different men are going to interpret their oaths with differing flexibility from the next. regardless of jon's legitimacy, i believe the men present at the tower of joy had more than enough loyalty to rhaegar in death not to desert simply because the mad king and his heirs were dead or fled.

as for why rhaegar didn't keep lyanna in king's landing, well... his (other?) wife was there.

I hope you two guys don't mind me lumping you together, as I feel your objections stem from the same root.

No matter the exact wording of their vows, the KG swear to protect and defend the King. If they not doing this, for whatever noble reason, they are breaking their oath. The Westerosi codes of honour are very much a black-and-white issue (a sort of DnD lawful alignment): to act most honourably, you keep your word no matter what, and when vows and/or loyalties are conflicted, the obedience to your liege takes precedence. That's what Jaime was supposed to do when Aerys sent him for Tywin's head, that's what Balonn Swann is required to do, that's what Stannis is so pissed for not getting from his supposed subjects (and when Davos calls him out on siding with Robert instead of supporting Aerys as the ultimate honour would have required, Stannis acknowledges that he did stray from the concept). The three KG at ToJ are paragons of honour - of this concept of honour. It is not up to them to decide who the king is, or whether the king is worthy or not - that is not a matter of their oath, and at least one of them, and that their LC, is known to have stuck to the principle without questioning. Their oath binds them to give up everything - possession, family, glory, sex - for a single purpose, to protect and defend the king. There is no wiggle space, and it is not a mere job: it is a purpose of their lives. If they put friendship or respect for Rhaegar, or guarding the PTWP who is NOT the next in the succession line, above their duty to protect and defend the king, they are oathbreakers and have no right to call themselves Kingsguard with pride, and they would know it and acknowledge it, like Stannis did (and like Barristan did, after all).

One thing concerning their KG duty: as there are seven of them, they don't have to be with the king all the time and they can be assigned to other missions as long as one of them stays with the king. Thus, Loras is sent to take Dragonstone, or Arys to guard Myrcella, while the king is protected by their remaining brethren. Up till the moment that Jaime betrays and kills Aerys, Dayne, Whent and Hightower are not in dereliction of duty. Then, the succession supposedly goes to Viserys after Aegon is murdered, and at that moment (or rather, the moment they receive the news) the KG find themselves in a situation when their previously valid orders to stay at ToJ and guard Lyanna are suddenly in conflict with their primary KG duty to guard and defend the king. No matter what they wish, or what they think the priority should be, guarding PTWP, or favouriting a child of their beloved Rhaegar over Viserys, is not defending and protecting the king, and there is no way they wouldn't be aware of that. Anyone else might be tempted to bend the oath to something that would fit them more but not these three .

[The Fallen]

` Let me begin by saying that I am aware of all that you've pointed out with regards to the Kingsguard. And the commentary with regards to the vows and how it's viewed and held dearly by the members of the KG was nice.

However, there have always been KG members who have strayed from their vows. There was one who bedded the king's wife, another who had women and children on the side. Then you have Meryn Trant and Boros Blount who have no problem beating a 13-year old girl. Arys Oakheart betrays his king to crown Myrcella queen whilst sleeping with Arianne Martell while he's in Dorne.

And then you have the current Lord Commander of the KG who slew his king, sleeps with the queen, pushed a little boy out of a window and would have slewed a second king had it not been for Cersei.

The Kingsguard are men and they're fallible. Take Arys Oakheart, for example. He didn't want to hit Sansa, and when forced to, he merely tapped her. He felt guilty for bedding Arianne and crowing Myrcella. He seems like a decent man and a good Kingsguard. But he's not perfect.

The point I'm making is that there have always been worthy Kingsguard who were the epitomy of everything that the position stands for. There have been Kingsguards who haven't taken their vows seriously. And then there are those that fall in between.

Lastly, can we all at least agree that Jon is special? GRRM has made Jon the "hero", or as close to a hero as we'll get in this song of ice and fire. Jon's conception, his birth, his parents, are all shrouded in secrecy and special circumstances.

And I think that three Kingsguards protecting Rhaegar's unborn child falls under special circumstances. There's no satisfactory explanation for why Rhaegar would assign three Kingsguards, one of which is the greatest knight and swordsman in the realm, to protect his second wife (and possible second heir). Unless he felt that the child was so important that it warranted that kind of protection, even if it's more symbolic than anything else. Special circumstances for special and trying times to guarantee that one particular child would survive. And I can see Dayne, especially, swearing to protect that child at all costs as a vow that was made to Rhaegar, his dear friend.

I'll leave it that.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Is it possible that they didn't know until informed by Ned? Certainly it seems that Jon wasn't born until shortly before or shortly after Ned arrives, since Lyanna died from childbirth and was still alive to beg Ned for a favor.

{edit} On the other hand their glib responses to Ned suggest that they were at least somewhat familiar with the political situation in Westeros, and who was dead or fled to Dragonstone.

You answered your own question. It should be clear, based on their answers to Ned, that they knew what had happened. I happen to think that the same person who told them is also the person who told Ned where to find his sister, and that that person was Ashara Dayne.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

<snip>

The one thing missing in your laundry list of Kingsguard fuck-ups is that I'm pretty sure that none of the guys who actually broke their vows would insist that they weren't breaking their vows. You say Jaime broke his vows by sleeping with the queen, killing Aerys, pushing his bastards on the throne, etc. And you're correct. But you also don't see Jaime standing there pretending to be upstanding in his oath, and that is the difference. Likewise, Arys Oakheart knew he was screwing up and was the first person to admit it.

As for "satisfactory explanations," I'm pretty sure that Lyanna being his wife and Jon being a legitimate heir, and then later on being the king, is about as friggin' "satisfactory" as it gets, no?

[Fire Eater]

When Ned asks why they weren't on Dragonstone with Viserys, whom Ned thought was the Targaryen king, The KG respond: We swore a vow. The vow they are referring to is the vow of the KG to defend the king. That response wouldn't make sense if Viserys was the rightful Targaryen king for the sake of a prince's bastard. However, if Jon was Rhaegar's legitimate son then the response would make sense since that would make him the rightful Targaryen king.

Rhaegar knew there was precedent for taking a second wife when Aegon I married both his sisters. He was regarded as an honorable and noble man, the kind who wouldn't dishonor a highborn maid through premarital sex.

If Jon is Rhaegar's bastard instead of Ned's, then he would have little claim to the IT through the Targaryens and Ned wouldn't have needed to go through as extreme lengths since a royal bastard wouldn't posed as much a threat as a legitimate son.

GRRM wouldn't make Jon's parentage such a mystery unless it will have a likely impact on the story.

[anon76returns]

You answered your own question. It should be clear, based on their answers to Ned, that they knew what had happened. I happen to think that the same person who told them is also the person who told Ned where to find his sister, and that that person was Ashara Dayne.

I could buy that. But then isn't there the issue that the KG trio found out about Aerys/Rhaegar/Aegon's deaths & Viserys' flight to Dragonstone before Jon was born, i.e. in the few month interval where Viserys was in fact the rightful Kings?

Or is there a possibility that Jon was born long before Ned & co arrived, and somehow Lyanna went through a very drawn out mortal postpartum illness?

[Techelles]

` Let me begin by saying that I am aware of all that you've pointed out with regards to the Kingsguard. And the commentary with regards to the vows and how it's viewed and held dearly by the members of the KG was nice.

However, there have always been KG members who have strayed from their vows. There was one who bedded the king's wife, another who had women and children on the side. Then you have Meryn Trant and Boros Blount who have no problem beating a 13-year old girl. Arys Oakheart betrays his king to crown Myrcella queen whilst sleeping with Arianne Martell while he's in Dorne.

And then you have the current Lord Commander of the KG who slew his king, sleeps with the queen, pushed a little boy out of a window and would have slewed a second king had it not been for Cersei.

The Kingsguard are men and they're fallible. Take Arys Oakheart, for example. He didn't want to hit Sansa, and when forced to, he merely tapped her. He felt guilty for bedding Arianne and crowing Myrcella. He seems like a decent man and a good Kingsguard. But he's not perfect.

The point I'm making is that there have always been worthy Kingsguard who were the epitomy of everything that the position stands for. There have been Kingsguards who haven't taken their vows seriously. And then there are those that fall in between.

Yet none of these KG you've mentioned happened to be Gerold Hightower, Oswell Whent, or Arthur Dayne.

Lastly, can we all at least agree that Jon is special? GRRM has made Jon the "hero", or as close to a hero as we'll get in this song of ice and fire. Jon's conception, his birth, his parents, are all shrouded in secrecy and special circumstances.

And I think that three Kingsguards protecting Rhaegar's unborn child falls under special circumstances. There's no satisfactory explanation for why Rhaegar would assign three Kingsguards, one of which is the greatest knight and swordsman in the realm, to protect his second wife (and possible second heir). Unless he felt that the child was so important that it warranted that kind of protection, even if it's more symbolic than anything else. Special circumstances for special and trying times to guarantee that one particular child would survive. And I can see Dayne, especially, swearing to protect that child at all costs as a vow that was made to Rhaegar, his dear friend.

I don't think anyone has argued that Jon isn't special. In fact, being Rhaegar's legitimate heir is pretty special. So is being one of the three heads of the dragon, which is what Rhaegar thought he was. So is being the PtwP, which is what many readers (myself included) think he is.

But what readers think isn't the same as what Rhaegar thought. So when I press you to explain why you say that Rhaegar thought Jon was the PtwP, I'm not arguing that Jon isn't the PtwP. I'm arguing about what Rhaegar thought he was. And I still haven't heard an answer that provides any textual reason to think that Rhaegar changed his mind about Aegon being the PtwP. I also have to wonder why you think that the status of Lyanna and her child as members of the royal family isn't sufficient reason for Rhaegar to have given them KG protection. And if we're talking prophecy, why isn't being one of the three heads important enough?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I could buy that. But then isn't there the issue that the KG trio found out about Aerys/Rhaegar/Aegon's deaths & Viserys' flight to Dragonstone before Jon was born, i.e. in the few month interval where Viserys was in fact the rightful Kings?

Or is there a possibility that Jon was born long before Ned & co arrived, and somehow Lyanna went through a very drawn out mortal postpartum illness?

I think that Jon had to have been born before the Kingsguard found out about Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon. If he'd been born after, there would be the issue of Viserys possibly being the king because they wouldn't have known whether Jon would be born male. Jon's birth preceding their knowledge of the other deaths is really the only thing that makes sense. You have to look at the outcome — three guys at the Tower, Viserys unprotected, the guys knowing about the deaths, them saying they're upholding the vows — and work backward to establish a timeline that makes sense. I don't think we need to be talking "months" here; it was probably more like weeks or even days.

[The guy from the Vale]

I could buy that. But then isn't there the issue that the KG trio found out about Aerys/Rhaegar/Aegon's deaths & Viserys' flight to Dragonstone before Jon was born, i.e. in the few month interval where Viserys was in fact the rightful Kings?

Or is there a possibility that Jon was born long before Ned & co arrived, and somehow Lyanna went through a very drawn out mortal postpartum illness?

There weren't months between Aerys' death and Jon's birth. There was one month at most, because we know Dany was conceived shortly before the Sack, and GRRM said Jon is eight or nine months older than Dany. These two pieces of information lead to the conclusion that Jon was born around the time of the sack, or at most a month after. Considering that there is no instant news broadcasting in Westeros, it's very likely the KG didn't hear about what happened until a few weeks afterwards, a time when Jon was most likely already born, or Lyanna was only days away from giving birth.

Ned found Lyanna dying from puerperal fever, which usually kills within ten days. If we give Lyanna the maximum time, Jon had been born 10 days before Ned arrived. And yes, this means Ned was almost directly heading to the ToJ from KL, in less than a month, while lifting the Siege of Storm's End along the way.

[Blue eyes Crowlack]

Simple, the KG at the tower respect Rheagar more than Areys, and besides that liked Rheagar more. He couldn't leave a substantial force at the TJ so he left 3 of his closest friends hoping they could defend his new born. Plus you know War and stuff.

[The guy from the Vale]

Simple, the KG at the tower respect Rheagar more than Areys, and besides that liked Rheagar more. He couldn't leave a substantial force at the TJ so he left 3 of his closest friends hoping they could defend his new born. Plus you know War and stuff.

Simple question: Why are they citing their (Kingsguard) vow for being at the Tower of Joy instead of Dragonstone, then?

[Dreadwolf]

Simple question: Why are they citing their (Kingsguard) vow for being at the Tower of Joy instead of Dragonstone, then?

In theory [although it is hardly the case at the ToJ] - it may be that

the line <we swear a wow> refers not to Kingsguard vow but to something new they did for Rhaegar at the ToJ.

As Jaime correctly stated there always exist too much conflicting obligations arising out of so many wows and duties in the knights life.

Which one is the overirding authority in the end of the Book? The Varys riddle is still open. Apart from the irrational solution it offers: Power lies where a man believes it lies...

[Witchalok]

Sorry about barging in on the thread, but can somebody clarify to me why the actions at the Tower Of Joy went down the way they did?

If the KGs knew what had transpired until then, is it safe to assume that they knew that Ned and Robert had fought over the murder of the Targaryen children? If yes, why couldn't they just say up-front to Ned and his companios: "You sister is pregnant with Rhaegar's child, and we are here to protect our "king". What are you going to do about it?"

Since Ned was obviously there to get back his sister, and not murder a new born babe which just so happens to be his nephew, why did the fighting break out?

Is there a reasonable explanation instead of just "everybody who knew Lyanna was pregnant had to die, so that is a secret by the events of the books"?