Tower of Joy: something I've never quite understood (possible spoilers)

[Saltwater]

Sorry when I do not quote anyone in particular, so many people did write about the KG-Oaths and vows, i would not know who to pick actually.

There is one serious problem I have with this theory that i did not see mentioned when reading through.

When you assume that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married and that Jon is the legal King, then this puts Ned in the exact same position as Tyrion. He is uncle to the king and therefore member of the Royal Family!

This is not even a guess or a clue, it is actually in the text. I cannot really quote cuz my books are in german, but in the end of book three ( 4th chapter Tyrion in part 2 of book 3 )where Tyrion is talking to Ser Addam, he wonders why the Kingsguard did not escort him to the trial. And he asks "I am still am member of the Royal Family, am I not?" And Ser Addam replies " Yes My Lord" and he explains that Lord Tywin simply thought it to be a bad idea since they would testify against him. So, even with being on trial for killing his king, he is still part of the Royal family. And I highly doubt that the KG is in any position to exclude members on their own.

This actually leaves us in a scenarion, where the KG are citing their oaths over and over.... just to break them with trying to kill a member of the royal family. You either do follow your vows or you don't, but you cannot just pick the raisins out of the cake and exclude certain people just because.

And when he's not a member, well then there is no marriage either, and no legal king.... and a KG at the wrong place.

And this is by far not the only weird thing in the whole story, no matter how you turn things, it will always leave you with certain "impossibilities". It's like you're trying the carry water in a sieve. Something seems just way odd about that whole thing.

[The Dornishman's Wife]

I don't think there's a problem. The KG are sworn to protect the king. The royal family (especially an uncle from the non-royal side) is just a bonus. Barristan thinks to himself when he is about to attack Hizdahr (his queen's husband):

The first duty of the Kingsguard was to defend the king from harm or threat. The white knights were sworn to obey the king's commands as well, to keep his secrets, counsel him when counsel was requested and keep silent when it was not, serve his pleasure and defend his name and honor. Strictly speaking, it was purely the king's choice whether or not to extend the Kingsguard protection to others, even those of royal blood.

Besides, Ned was a rebel and a traitor. Joff's Kingsguard were fighting against Stannis as well (and he even does come from the royal side of the family) and noone suggested that this was against their vows.

[King of Winters]

When you assume that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married and that Jon is the legal King, then this puts Ned in the exact same position as Tyrion. He is uncle to the king and therefore member of the Royal Family!

You have to remember though, Ned, in the eyes of the Kingsguard was still a rebel. He had fought against thier king on the Trident and other battles, Ned probably didn't know Lyanna had a child until he went up to her. Even though Ned was uncle to the king he still would have wanted to take both Lyanna and baby Jon away, and the Kingsguard wanted to keep Jon safe so they could put him on the throne.

[Ser Vallon Snow]

Sorry when I do not quote anyone in particular, so many people did write about the KG-Oaths and vows, i would not know who to pick actually.

There is one serious problem I have with this theory that i did not see mentioned when reading through.

When you assume that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married and that Jon is the legal King, then this puts Ned in the exact same position as Tyrion. He is uncle to the king and therefore member of the Royal Family!

This is not even a guess or a clue, it is actually in the text. I cannot really quote cuz my books are in german, but in the end of book three ( 4th chapter Tyrion in part 2 of book 3 )where Tyrion is talking to Ser Addam, he wonders why the Kingsguard did not escort him to the trial. And he asks "I am still am member of the Royal Family, am I not?" And Ser Addam replies " Yes My Lord" and he explains that Lord Tywin simply thought it to be a bad idea since they would testify against him. So, even with being on trial for killing his king, he is still part of the Royal family. And I highly doubt that the KG is in any position to exclude members on their own.

This actually leaves us in a scenarion, where the KG are citing their oaths over and over.... just to break them with trying to kill a member of the royal family. You either do follow your vows or you don't, but you cannot just pick the raisins out of the cake and exclude certain people just because.

And when he's not a member, well then there is no marriage either, and no legal king.... and a KG at the wrong place.

And this is by far not the only weird thing in the whole story, no matter how you turn things, it will always leave you with certain "impossibilities". It's like you're trying the carry water in a sieve. Something seems just way odd about that whole thing.

I follow what your saying but their vows are to protect the King first. Royal family comes second. If Ned were to try and harm the new King then royal family or not they would be obligated to stop him by any means at their disposal

[King of Winters]

I follow what your saying but their vows are to protect the King first. Royal family comes second. If Ned were to try and harm the new King then royal family or not they would be obligated to stop him by any means at their disposal

Ned wouldn't try and hurt his nephew, the Kingsguard just didn't want him to take Jon away so he wouldn't be be raised as the king he is.

[The guy from the Vale]

Ned wouldn't try and hurt his nephew, the Kingsguard just didn't want him to take Jon away so he wouldn't be be raised as the king he is.

How would the Kingsguard know this, though? And even if he did so, he ould be depriving Jon of his birthright. They need to protect Jon from that fate, too, because they are the Kingsguard, not the random-boy-who-has-a-claim-to-the-throne-guard.

[Amedw]

Its also possible that they would have chosen to swear a vow to Rhaegar to protect the child regardless of whether it was male or female.

This was something I saw argued a while ago (sorry if It was resolved). But unless I am mistaken, the Seven Kingdoms follow a Male-preference primogeniture form of succession. So a daughter will inherit only if she has no surviving brothers or surviving decedents of brothers. So in a hypothetical world where Jon is the legitimate offspring of Rhegar and Lyanna and was born a girl, the line of succession should be Ares, Rhaegar, Aegon, Rhaenys, Female Jon, Viserys, Daney. Of course if this was the case there would probably be just more war anyway as there would likely be other factions putting their weight behind either Robert, Female Jon or Viserys (who cares about custom if there is more power to be gained by placing Viserys on the throne?)

There are also a few instances of females inheriting, eg Alys Karstark being Harrion Karstark's heir rather than their great uncle (Where we also get the "A daughter inherits before an uncle"). I know that is one extra step away but the principle still stands. There is also Anya Waynwood who is the current Lady of Ironoaks despite having an uncle Sir Elys Waynwood. I am also fairly certain that Cersi is the current Lady of the Rock rather than Ser Kevin, although there could have been some funny stuff happening there, I should re-read AFfC.

My point to all this rambling is that the KG did not need to know the baby was a male for it to be next in line, either a male of a female child would be placed in the order of succession before Viserys. What may be a little grey is the protection of an unborn child in preference to the next living in line, but it could be argued that they were not breaking their vows by not going to Viserys even without knowing that Jon was male.

[Saltwater]

You have to remember though, Ned, in the eyes of the Kingsguard was still a rebel. He had fought against thier king on the Trident and other battles, Ned probably didn't know Lyanna had a child until he went up to her. Even though Ned was uncle to the king he still would have wanted to take both Lyanna and baby Jon away, and the Kingsguard wanted to keep Jon safe so they could put him on the throne.

Well, you're quite right with your points, but like I said, this is all so squishy, when you look at it from another side, you keep finding odd things^^

I guess most of all this really depends on how things actually were. Ned was pretty much still under the impression that Lyanna was kidnapped. One thing would be interesting to know if the KG knew Lyanna was dying, or if she was in labour at that time. There is no such thing as a baby king, when you go by history. He would need to have a regent, which most likely would be Lyanna, as the only royal there, if the marriage took place.

Or just imagine things would have went differently. The KG win, Lyanna survives, but all of Ned's men dead. What would they tell her? "Well My Queen, your brother has been here earlier, he was under the impression you have been kidnapped and came for your rescue. We simply killed him and his men. I hope this was tio your liking" :uhoh:

Of corse Ned would have wanted to take them away, no doubt there. But I somehow get the impression that is also what Lyanna wanted. Her last words were about Ned taking her home and that promise me.... and I have the feeling that this is about what she wanted for Jons future. And since Ned did let him take the black and giving up on everything, it does not seem Lyanna wanted the crown for him, as part of the vow is "I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory.

And also I'm not really sure if this was all about getting Jon on the throne. Rhaegar was young, he himself was planning a council thing, most likely to get himself on the throne. And then there was still Aegon and Rhaenis before Jon.

Actually, I'm quite confused about everyones agenda. And even sometimes it seems, with kidnapping Lyanna, not leaving a note, all while mad king is still in power, that Rhaegar was actually hoping for a rebellion ;)

[King of Winters]

I guess most of all this really depends on how things actually were. Ned was pretty much still under the impression that Lyanna was kidnapped. One thing would be interesting to know if the KG knew Lyanna was dying, or if she was in labour at that time. There is no such thing as a baby king, when you go by history. He would need to have a regent, which most likely would be Lyanna, as the only royal there, if the marriage took place.

I read a theory that said Lyanna had caught a fever after giving birth, and I think that maybe Wylla was there with Lyanna to help her care for Jon.

And also I'm not really sure if this was all about getting Jon on the throne. Rhaegar was young, he himself was planning a council thing, most likely to get himself on the throne. And then there was still Aegon and Rhaenis before Jon.

Also they the Kingsguard would have known about Aegon and Rhaenys getting killed, as they didn't seem surprised when Ned told them KL had been sacked. So with all the heirs infront of Jon being killed, that would make him the Kingsguard's top priority.

[joluoto]

I have wondered if the King's Guard were secretly conspiring with Rhaegar to depose Aerys. Because the fact that Jamie was the only one protecting the king, the others were fighting with Rhaegar on the Trident or were at the Tower of Joy is VERY SUSPICIOUS. How the hell were they able to explain that to Aerys?

[Ygrain]

Well, you're quite right with your points, but like I said, this is all so squishy, when you look at it from another side, you keep finding odd things^^

I guess most of all this really depends on how things actually were. Ned was pretty much still under the impression that Lyanna was kidnapped. One thing would be interesting to know if the KG knew Lyanna was dying, or if she was in labour at that time. There is no such thing as a baby king, when you go by history. He would need to have a regent, which most likely would be Lyanna, as the only royal there, if the marriage took place.

Or just imagine things would have went differently. The KG win, Lyanna survives, but all of Ned's men dead. What would they tell her? "Well My Queen, your brother has been here earlier, he was under the impression you have been kidnapped and came for your rescue. We simply killed him and his men. I hope this was tio your liking" :uhoh:

Of corse Ned would have wanted to take them away, no doubt there. But I somehow get the impression that is also what Lyanna wanted. Her last words were about Ned taking her home and that promise me.... and I have the feeling that this is about what she wanted for Jons future. And since Ned did let him take the black and giving up on everything, it does not seem Lyanna wanted the crown for him, as part of the vow is "I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory.

And also I'm not really sure if this was all about getting Jon on the throne. Rhaegar was young, he himself was planning a council thing, most likely to get himself on the throne. And then there was still Aegon and Rhaenis before Jon.

Actually, I'm quite confused about everyones agenda. And even sometimes it seems, with kidnapping Lyanna, not leaving a note, all while mad king is still in power, that Rhaegar was actually hoping for a rebellion ;)

There's just one thing I can agree with, and that the whole situation was fucked up. Neither party really wanted to fight; both of them were compelled to do so by duty and honour. The KG's duty also probably clashed with what Lyanna wanted for her baby. If they stuck to their vows, there was no way out for them of the situation.

[Saltwater]

I read a theory that said Lyanna had caught a fever after giving birth, and I think that maybe Wylla was there with Lyanna to help her care for Jon.

Well, this depends on how close GRRM stays with reality. Pueperal fever or childbed fever was a very common thing after giving birth in medieval times. And it was deadly for sure. But towards the end you would be pretty much in a delirium, not making any sense anymore, let alone being able to speak or something. They had no antibiotics or food and fluid infusions. And it often took days up to two weeks from giving birth to death. Being able to still talk sense and die so quickly, I would rather expect bleeding to death maybe? Or maybe some unknown Westerosi desease ;)

I still wonder tho, why there would be no maester when you have a that far gone pregnant woman around. Childbirth was not only dangerous for woman, it was for the child as well. Not sure how much skill you'd really wanna give a wet nurse.

Also they the Kingsguard would have known about Aegon and Rhaenys getting killed, as they didn't seem surprised when Ned told them KL had been sacked. So with all the heirs infront of Jon being killed, that would make him the Kingsguard's top priority.

Well of course, regarding the throne yes!

But what about that prophesy with the dragon with three heads? This went to shits so to say. And another thing that I don't get, is why Rhaegar postponed his grab for power after the trident battle. The main problem was Aerys madness. He should have done it, when he was in KL before that battle. There might have even been a chance to negotiate still with Aerys out of the way... There are a lot of strange decisions so to say.

And sometimes it seems like he strictly followed prophesies, and he depended on the outcome of certain things, not realizing that he might be wrong. Like going to a battle not taking precautions, cuz you're sure you will survive, cuz the phrophesy said so. So maybe the KG at the ToJ were acting upon a prophesy as well, or partwise.

Living up to or strictly following them, will almost always lead into doom....

Like Cersei that dumb nut^^ With her Maggy prophesy, golden crowns and golden shreds, and she is exactly doing that! I mean she could have burried Joff in Baratheon-Green, or Devil-Black... but um no, gold :laugh:

[The Fallen]

The various mothers - always these are plausible from the point of view of the way they are told, but not plausible when examined in light of other knowledge we the readers have.

He didn't kill Jon, he had him stabbed and blacking out.

Aegon's dead was never certain, that much was clear from the start, and his 'resurrection' was guessed by many well in advance from the clues provided, and sufficient explanations provided in text.

Thats how you trick most readers without cheating.

GRRM clearly wants us to think that Jon has been killed. You can't deny that. And everyone, including us, thought that Aegon was dead, then five books later he appears out of the blue (no pun intended).

But what you are asking for here, is one of two things:

- the presence of a new random, personal vow, one which somehow supercedes the highest vow these men could take that defines their very lives, one with zero foreshadowing or evidence other than the need for an alternative explanation here

- that these men, set up as the pinnacle of Knightly honour and respecting vows, vouched for by the internal thoughts and external words and actions of Ned Stark, Jaime Lannister and others, lied to Ned for no reason at all as they prepared for a fight to the death with no witnesses.in other words, they aren't honourable at all and don't really have any care for their vows.

Either option by GRRM would be cheating because it goes against every relevant clue we have.

I'm not asking. I'm proposing that the three Kingsguards that have been praised to the Sevens could be used by GRRM to throw us off the trail of possibly the biggest and most important revelation down the line. That Jon is indeed the PtwP, Azor Ahai reborn.

And there has been foreshadowing and hints.

When one starts going down the 'anything's possible route', one can come up with any number of scenarios. We know that Faceless Men exist and can change their face, so technically it's possible that every single non-POV character is being impersonated by a Faceless Man. Aerys took liberties at Joanna's bedding so it's possible Tyrion is a Targaryen. Cersei once became pregnant with Robert's child so it's possible sperm acts different in Westeros and jumped from her fingers to her womb and thus Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella are Robert's children.

That's the problem with dealing with possibles in literature. One can make up anything.

Except I'm not making anything up. We have people propose all types of scenarios, but even I've yet to hear that one. And, of course, there's no basis, foundation or evidence for it. Even the Great Northern Conspiracy theory is stronger than that.

What I'm pointing to (Jon is the PtwP, AAR) will probably be borne out. So, is it really that hard to fathom that three words, "We swore a vow", said during a scene shrouded in mystery, could refer to something other than what we would initially assume? You would think I said the world is flat. Everything from prophecies to "what does Hodor mean?" is open to interpretation, but Sevens forbid that a Kingsguard an oath other than "protect the king!" Even though it's happened in the past.

And Ygrain, I'm not arguing that Jon is illegitimate.

[Saltwater]

There's just one thing I can agree with, and that the whole situation was fucked up. Neither party really wanted to fight; both of them were compelled to do so by duty and honour. The KG's duty also probably clashed with what Lyanna wanted for her baby. If they stuck to their vows, there was no way out for them of the situation.

Of course I'm argumenting with hindsight here now ;)

But the most tragic thing is I guess, that Ned is really only one of a few people where you get the feeling, that people should get on good terms with. It's always for the kids. The huge clash with Rob about Aegon and Rhaenys. Giving Cersei the option to run, not wanting to kill Dany.... I really would like to know, if they even tried to talk things through. It's a shame how all those good men had to die, and for what actually?

And for Lyanna, as she is always shown to be like Arya (or Arya like her), spirited and wild, even looking alike, I have the feeling this was more of a Sansa-Moment for her. That she expected something completely different, and in the end she just wanted to go home to Winterfell, and the same for her baby. At least she is one of those who lost the most.

[AvengerofWinterfell]

Maybe they didn't know that Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon were dead. If I remember correctly, in the books we never get a reliable timeline for the war of the usurper.

Im not sure that I agree, if we look at Ned's dream of the JOY encounter he actually gives us a clue that the KG members did in fact know.

I looked for you on the Trident,” Ned said to them.

“We were not there,” Ser Gerold answered.

“Woe to the Usurper if we had been,” said Ser Oswell.

“When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were.”

“Far away,” Ser Gerold said, “or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells.”

Its obvious they know about the death Aerys so its not unreasonable to think that they would know about the other happenings of the sack of KL...specifically the death of Aegon. To me, they also imply that they know of Rhaegar's death on the Trident. if thats indeed the case then the only logical reason for them to be at the TOJ is if they were protecting an heir to the throne.

[joluoto]

I still think it's very suspicious that Jaime was the only King's Guard member in King's Landing. Why were there not more of them there to protect Aerys, Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys?

[FittleLinger]

How would the Kingsguard know this, though? And even if he did so, he ould be depriving Jon of his birthright. They need to protect Jon from that fate, too, because they are the Kingsguard, not the random-boy-who-has-a-claim-to-the-throne-guard.

Exactly, very well said! FIrst, they can't know. I don't think even Ned was sure what to do from the beginning - Lyanna's pleads pushed him. I think NEd was at least considering giving the child to Robert for a brief moment. I think he was desperately trying to find a way out where he betrays noone.

Also - Ned is the leading commander of the rebels - of course they will not give him the child, his nephew or not.

And, most importantly - their job is to keep the king King. No matter if the rebels will just kill him or raise him up in secret and send him to the Wall - their job is none of these things to happen.

[FittleLinger]

I still think it's very suspicious that Jaime was the only King's Guard member in King's Landing. Why were there not more of them there to protect Aerys, Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys?

Because they were in a city, in a keep, with a lot of gold cloaks. It is more logical to have more KG with those of the royal family who are in a field situation.

Thing is that if the city falls, it would have been most likely after a heavy siege, and a large army would march inside. That's the most likely scenario to predict. In such case, a KG or two or three won't really matter. I think that noone thought that if the city really falls, any number of KG would havea chance to do anything. Also, Jaime was the youngest of the KG back then (?) and I think they gave him the easiest task - to stay in the well fortified and defended keep.

[Dr. Pepper]

What I'm pointing to (Jon is the PtwP, AAR) will probably be borne out. So, is it really that hard to fathom that three words, "We swore a vow", said during a scene shrouded in mystery, could refer to something other than what we would initially assume? You would think I said the world is flat. Everything from prophecies to "what does Hodor mean?" is open to interpretation, but Sevens forbid that a Kingsguard an oath other than "protect the king!" Even though it's happened in the past.

We can assume the "We swore a vow" could refer to something other than the KG duty if the KG at the scene were not specifically citing their duties as KG.

[Little and Less]

Pure speculation, but my guess is that more people knew about the TOJ and where Lyanna was being kept....somebody at Starfall and Ashara Dayne mostly likely. Someone tipped off Ned...and whether that person is still alive is anyone's guess.

Rhaegar and Lyanna could not have stayed at the TOJ for any real length of time without say food, water and provisions (especially if she was pregnant). Unless Ashara or Arthur Dayne were helping them.