Tower of Joy: something I've never quite understood (possible spoilers)

[The guy from the Vale]

Third theory thats where Aegon was stashed as well and he was being taken cared of by Lyanna - and promises were made. Ned wont kill a child, takes him and his bro (Jon) up to the Daynes and Ashara fakes her death and takes Aegon as her own...and from there Septa Lemore takes the young Aegon across the Narrow Sea. :commie:

That one fails because Ned thinks of Aegon as dead in quite certain terms.

[Little and Less]

Wow, this topic again? I'm on Apple Martini's side with this totally. In summary: The KG were with the King - as was their duty. Jon is legitimate because Rheagar and Lyanna had secretly married. Rheagar and baby Aegon died after Jon was born, and that's why the KG were there and NOT with Viserys.

Why? Other than Ned's memory of the TOJ and his confrontation with the KG, we have (or at least what pops in my mind right now):

In Dany's POV, Jorah wants to be one of Dany's husbands, thus having more than one wife/husband was still a Targ custom, I think we are making assumptions that the Targ's stopped doing this. There is nothing saying that this custom was abandoned.

The Ned never says anything bad about Rheagar - I think if my only sister was "kidnapped" and "raped" and "abused" by the Crown Prince, and that my father and older brother had been burned alive/hung partly because of the above and now Westeros was thrown into war, then I don't think I would have any good memories about Rheagar. The Ned has far more bad thoughts of his BFF Robert; and he doesn't join in when King Bob starts bad mouthing Rheagar. It is very telling that Ned shows no ill will against Rheagar. (This is one area I hope that GRRM gives us more insight through Bran's weirwood memories)

Jaime in several of his POVs says the KG's 1st duty is to PROTECT THE KING. And that Aerys was Mad; and I thought that it was Aerys that dispatches both Dayne and Whent to Rhaegar (but I'm not sure on this one). Remember Aerys had wildfire (and KG Jaime) as insurance should some force attack KL (probably in his mind more effective than the KG). (Even JonCon says he should have burned down the city in the battle of the Belles to find Robert, and he was removed as Hand because he did not do this.)

Maester Aemon tells us that Rheagar took the PTWP prophesy very seriously....now whether Rheagar's interpretation of this is correct that is debatable. If he truly believed that the dragon has three heads literally, and if Elia could not have any more children, than it stands to reason that Rheagar would indeed take another wife. (Elia was also Dornish, the Dornish are much more liberal about marriage and extramartial affairs.) Even Aemon believed in the PTWP as he thought Dany was the ONE.

Also we are reminded countless times that there are still many Targ loyalists in Westeros, my guess is the KG knew that Jon could be taken somewhere and kept safe until Rheagar's child could rebel against King Bob in the future. (And with Lyanna sick and dying, they had to stay there because they could not move her which allowed Ned time to show up.)Even King Bob wanted all the Targs killed; of course he hated Rheagar but he also knew that there were still many Houses who would rebel against him if a Targ came out of the (weir)woodwork and made a claim for the Throne.

Ned's account of the TOJ implies that the KG knew that Rhaegar, Aerys and Aegon were dead. So....why stay? Because as Jaime says, first duty is to protect the King.

[Kuther2000]

I don't think we can gauge Ned's thoughts about Rhaegar just from one sentence made about him. It's about brothels and Rhaegar probably not going to them. Well Brandon probably didn't go to brothels either and he surely got around. Ned doesn't say anything bad about Aerys either and he was the one perpetuating the crimes.

Ned doesn't live in the past like others such as Robert do. The past happened, but the present is more important.

[Ygrain]

I don't think we can gauge Ned's thoughts about Rhaegar just from one sentence made about him. It's about brothels and Rhaegar probably not going to them. Well Brandon probably didn't go to brothels either and he surely got around. Ned doesn't say anything bad about Aerys either and he was the one perpetuating the crimes.

Ned doesn't live in the past like others such as Robert do. The past happened, but the present is more important.

While I do agree that Ned's opinion of Rhaegar cannot be easily established out of this, the thought about Rhaegar not frequenting brothels has to be read within the whole context, and that is Ned being bitter and angry with Robert about his whoring. So, in this respect, he makes Rhaegar sound the better man. Also, thinking that Rhaegar didn't frequent brothels didn't come out of clear sky, Ned must have based it on some knowledge of Rhaegar.

[King of Winters]

I don't think we can gauge Ned's thoughts about Rhaegar just from one sentence made about him. It's about brothels and Rhaegar probably not going to them. Well Brandon probably didn't go to brothels either and he surely got around. Ned doesn't say anything bad about Aerys either and he was the one perpetuating the crimes.

Ned doesn't live in the past like others such as Robert do. The past happened, but the present is more important.

Ned could beat no ill will against Rhaegar because he had no reason to hate Rhaegar personally. Sure his actions caused the deaths of many people but Rhaegar didn't personally harm any Starks

[Kuther2000]

But as I said. Ned doesn't say anything bad about Aerys either. We really don't have his opinion about anything.

If anything we get, Ned really didn't care because they were dead and gone.

[King of Winters]

But as I said. Ned doesn't say anything about being mad at Aerys either.

I don't think they ever talk about Aerys. Robert just keeps going on about his hatred for Rhaegar, not Aerys.

[Ygrain]

But as I said. Ned doesn't say anything bad about Aerys either. We really don't have his opinion about anything.

If anything we get, Ned really didn't care because they were dead and gone.

Well, but this isn't "not saying anything bad about Rhaegar", this is saying something positive about Rhaegar, which comes out even stronger as a comparison between the supposed rapist of Ned's sister and her betrothed, who is at the same time Ned's best friend.

[nirolo]

I don't think we can gauge Ned's thoughts about Rhaegar just from one sentence made about him. It's about brothels and Rhaegar probably not going to them. Well Brandon probably didn't go to brothels either and he surely got around. Ned doesn't say anything bad about Aerys either and he was the one perpetuating the crimes.

Ned doesn't live in the past like others such as Robert do. The past happened, but the present is more important.

I agree. Ned's remark alone is not enough to make or break Rhaegar. But we don't have to make a judgement based on the opinions of Ned and Robert alone, do we? There is Cersei, there is Jorah, there is Barristan, there is Cersei, there is Jaime...and did I mention Cersei?

[Beric Zoolander]

That one fails because Ned thinks of Aegon as dead in quite certain terms.

UGH you're right I should have remembered that cause I'm doing a Ned re-read, he specifically recalls seing those two bodies brought in and notes some people's reactions to it. The red blankets and all...

[FittleLinger]

Well, but this isn't "not saying anything bad about Rhaegar", this is saying something positive about Rhaegar, which comes out even stronger as a comparison between the supposed rapist of Ned's sister and her betrothed, who is at the same time Ned's best friend.

Exactly, and why does he not think about Aerys in this line of thought, as the previous king and the current one? He thinks of her abductor and he says that he probably didn't go to brothels. The freaking villain?

Exactly because Ned doesn't think about anyone really, this is something which has to be taken as revealing. Ned was a decent if not good judge of character. And he has every reason to give Rhaegar some bad qualities for raping and abductiong his sister, even if Rhaegar wasn't really like that, and he does exactly the opposite?

[House Banquero]

Took me forever to read all these posts....... Personally, I ascribe to the belief of the simplest answer is the best one. The KG was there because they were TOLD to be there.

1.) We have many examples of the KG doing things that are not strictly speaking "guarding the king".They often beat Sansa, they escort people around (Sandor/Loras and Sansa) and even leading sorties in the battle of the blackwater isn't, strictly speaking, guarding the king. There were plenty of Lannister guards and gold cloaks who could have done any of those things. Also we have an example of the ENTIRE royal family crossing half the realm to go to winterfell with only 3 KG members (Jaime, Boros, and Meryn), were the other 3 oathbreakers for hanging out in King's Landing with no one to guard? Were they derelict of duty for not guarding the king?

2.) Jon being legitimate or not in my opinion isn't very relevant. If hey were told to guard the tower they wouldve. Jon being a boy vs a girl is also not relevant. We have seen royal daughters guarded by the KG before when Arys Oakhart guarded Myrcella in Dorne

3.) It is also entirely possible that some of the KG were pro-Rhaegar rather than pro-Aerys. Varys told Aerys that the Tourney at Harrenhall was being held in order for Rhaegar and other lords to conspire to overthrow him. The Tourney was held by Lord Whent after a visit from his brother Oswell Whent. The same Oswell Whent that was hanging out at the ToJ months later. The small detail of Whents visit to Harrenhall preceeding the Tourney seems not worth mentioning unless its part of a bigger plot point yet to be revealed.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Took me forever to read all these posts....... Personally, I ascribe to the belief of the simplest answer is the best one. The KG was there because they were TOLD to be there.

Doesn't explain why they were there when no one was with Viserys, if Viserys was actually the king.

1.) We have many examples of the KG doing things that are not strictly speaking "guarding the king".They often beat Sansa, they escort people around (Sandor/Loras and Sansa) and even leading sorties in the battle of the blackwater isn't, strictly speaking, guarding the king. There were plenty of Lannister guards and gold cloaks who could have done any of those things. Also we have an example of the ENTIRE royal family crossing half the realm to go to winterfell with only 3 KG members (Jaime, Boros, and Meryn), were the other 3 oathbreakers for hanging out in King's Landing with no one to guard? Were they derelict of duty for not guarding the king?

No, because the royal family did have Kingsguard protection. If they didn't, then the absent Kingsguard would be derelict of their duty. For whatever reason they were told to stay in the capital and they did so. But other Kingsguard were there.

2.) Jon being legitimate or not in my opinion isn't very relevant. If hey were told to guard the tower they wouldve. Jon being a boy vs a girl is also not relevant. We have seen royal daughters guarded by the KG before when Arys Oakhart guarded Myrcella in Dorne

And while Arys was guarding Myrcella, Boros, Meryn, Loras, etc. were guarding Joffrey and Tommen. If Tommen for whatever reason ended up without protection, Arys would, if he stuck to his vows, put his protection above that of Myrcella's. That's the difference — Tommen had protection, Viserys didn't. That Viserys didn't, as I have said over and over and over and over to the nth power, should be big damn evidence that, for whatever reason, the guys at the Tower considered Jon their king at that point and not Viserys.

3.) It is also entirely possible that some of the KG were pro-Rhaegar rather than pro-Aerys. Varys told Aerys that the Tourney at Harrenhall was being held in order for Rhaegar and other lords to conspire to overthrow him. The Tourney was held by Lord Whent after a visit from his brother Oswell Whent. The same Oswell Whent that was hanging out at the ToJ months later. The small detail of Whents visit to Harrenhall preceeding the Tourney seems not worth mentioning unless its part of a bigger plot point yet to be revealed.

That is possible, sure. But hey, if they're pro-Rhaegar, all the more reason for them to think that Rhaegar's son at that point is the king rather than Rhaegar's brother, right?

[LLdanH]

Was the KG Whent killed at the TOJ Cat's cousin?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Was the KG Whent killed at the TOJ Cat's cousin?

Not sure the exact relationship, but he was probably related to her somehow through her mother, yeah.

[anon76returns]

Took me forever to read all these posts....... Personally, I ascribe to the belief of the simplest answer is the best one. The KG was there because they were TOLD to be there.

1.) We have many examples of the KG doing things that are not strictly speaking "guarding the king".They often beat Sansa, they escort people around (Sandor/Loras and Sansa) and even leading sorties in the battle of the blackwater isn't, strictly speaking, guarding the king. There were plenty of Lannister guards and gold cloaks who could have done any of those things. Also we have an example of the ENTIRE royal family crossing half the realm to go to winterfell with only 3 KG members (Jaime, Boros, and Meryn), were the other 3 oathbreakers for hanging out in King's Landing with no one to guard? Were they derelict of duty for not guarding the king?

But all of those other things that engaged in didn't prevent them from guarding the King. Other than Jaimie killing Aerys (an acknowledged breach of his vows), there is no other incident of the Kingsguard engaging in any other activity when the life of their liege was in danger.

As for Goldcloaks and Lannister guards(!), they have specific things that they do that aren't 'guarding the king', The KG don't- it's right there in their title. Just as Bronn is a sellsword because he sells his sword, the Kingsguard are KG because they guard their king.

2.) Jon being legitimate or not in my opinion isn't very relevant. If hey were told to guard the tower they wouldve. Jon being a boy vs a girl is also not relevant. We have seen royal daughters guarded by the KG before when Arys Oakhart guarded Myrcella in Dorne

But there were still other KG guarding Joffrey and then Tommen. Would Arys have stayed in Sunspear if all the other KG had been killed? Not without breaking his vows!

3.) It is also entirely possible that some of the KG were pro-Rhaegar rather than pro-Aerys. Varys told Aerys that the Tourney at Harrenhall was being held in order for Rhaegar and other lords to conspire to overthrow him. The Tourney was held by Lord Whent after a visit from his brother Oswell Whent. The same Oswell Whent that was hanging out at the ToJ months later. The small detail of Whents visit to Harrenhall preceeding the Tourney seems not worth mentioning unless its part of a bigger plot point yet to be revealed.

Then your interpretation of the TOJ conversation is that they were lying to Ned when they said they were there because of their oath. OK, whatever makes you enjoy while you read. However, you have to keep in mind that your version of events requires that the characters are doing the opposite of what they say they're doing, which means you don't really subscribe to the 'simplest' version of events, but rather a convoluted one in which we need to ignore what's in the books and go by our 'better' judgement.

ETA- yeah, Martini beat me to it.

[Kuther2000]

Something has been on my mind lately. We know that Rhaegar, Lyanna and the Kingsguard ended up at the TOJ, but did they start there? I mean there is this whole space of time unaccounted for after the kidnapping(running away) and before Rhaegar came back for the war.

I mean did they go to the TOJ immediately?

Because when you really think about it they were gone for a long time. You have the "kidnapping", then Brandon getting the news racing to King's Landing, then Rickard getting the news and coming from the North, which in itself is a long way and who knows how many weeks travel it is. So by this time Rhaegar, Lyanna and the KG should have already been at the TOJ, then you have the time between the executions and Jon Arryn getting the message for Robert and Ned to be presented to Aerys. After Jon Arryn refuses both Ned and Robert have to travel home to rally their bannermen. I think Ned traveled by sea but still I think he was shipwrecked for a little while. Then Ned has to bring all his men from the North. There then had been a good many battles before Gerold Hightower went looking for Rhaegar.

All and all. This seems like a really long time for them to be out of commission. Were they couped up in the TOJ all day? What were they doing that whole time? Playing cards with the members of the KG and having sex?

Any thoughts?

[House Banquero]

Then your interpretation of the TOJ conversation is that they were lying to Ned when they said they were there because of their oath. OK, whatever makes you enjoy while you read. However, you have to keep in mind that your version of events requires that the characters are doing the opposite of what they say they're doing, which means you don't really subscribe to the 'simplest' version of events, but rather a convoluted one in which we need to ignore what's in the books and go by our 'better' judgement.

ETA- yeah, Martini beat me to it.

I prefaced #3 with "it is also possible". just stating a possibility not necessarily a belief. I still go by occams razor, they were told to be there.

As to the fact that Tommen and Myrcella were also guarded. Well you can argue that Aerys was also guarded by Jaime, and Rhaegar had 3 KG at the Trident. As far as those 3 KG knew all the royals were protected. Communication is slow, they couldve believed that Rhaegar won at the Trident and that the 3 KG rejoined Jaime at Kings Landing to guard the king and his family, only finding out that wasn't the case when Ned shows up. That would also explain any lack of surprise. Those 3 KG likely wouldve expect Rhaegar to return after the battle/war was won. Ned showing up probably means war is lost. no reason for surprise.

Without a cell phone it'd be pretty tough to know that Viserys had escaped alive.

At the end of the day there isnt enough evidence to support any theory 100%. Only GRRM knows what happened. Howland Reed couldve summoned leaf demons from his trousers for all we know. Theres as much evidence to support that as some of the other claims offered up in this thread (including claims i've made). Meera did say he knew magics of the crannogs!

[intheswamp]

Rhaegar kept her locked in the tower until he knocked her up with that third dragon head he dreamed of. Arthur "Sword of the Morning" Dayne and Oswell "Batman" Whent were downstairs in a drunken stupor the entire time. In fact, the only reason why Ned and Howland succeeded in defeating them was because they were still hungover.

[Fire Eater]

They went to the ToJ possibly after the Battle of the Bells, otherwise I don't think Connington would have been exiled and Rhaegar would have led the battle. When Rhaegar and Lyanna were at the ToJ, they were busy conceiving Jon Of course they were likely mostly having sex, what else was there for them to do in a tower in the middle of nowhere? The only other things they probably did was ride together, Lyanna listen to rahegar play his harp and make out. Until the KG found him, and told him the shit had the fan. Lyanna likely wept for her father and Brandon, likely feeling guilty for what happened to them.

Rhaegar probably told the KG to guard and protect Lyanna until he came back. They KG probably spent their time at the ToJ training together, reading and having talks with each other and Lyanna.